Tyranid 2010 Tactica Discussion

[jamesterjlrb]

As people seem to be starting to play games and get a good look at the new book i've opened up the Tyranid tactica Discussion. This will act as a summary post/point to other posts where appropriate.


Possible ideas:

Nidzilla still looks to be viable in a different form, especially with cheap units of warriors as troops and probably trygons instead of fexes.
This might utilise lots of mid size creatures such as Hive Guard, venomthrope, pyrovore.

Warriors with two boneswords and possibly wings with the biomorph giving 4+ poisoned attacks appears to be an effective anti MC/HQ.

Brood of Zoanthropes in a spore capsule appears to be an effective Anti Heavy tank choice.

Hive guard (don't require LoS) would appear to be effective as they can be hidden in a building/ruin/in or behind area terrain. Shooting wise they are like a marine with 2 krak missilies with a slightly lowered AP. They can take out transports such as Chimeras and Rhinos from a long range with relative ease. They are also cheap, see WD Jan for points cost.

Large broods of Hormagaunts or Gargoyles are cheap and are good for quickly tieing up enemy units allowing your MCs to get into CC.

Venomthropes are good for providing large broods cover saves and some protection from pizza plates. Because only one model needs to be in range a large unit of 30 hormis can leave a small conga line behind to stay in range. Defensive grenades are also useful.

The unit spawn list also looks to be possible. This comprises of Tervigons that spawn Termagants, Biovores and Harpies to spawn spore mines, and the special character that allows you to potentially turn outflanking units into rippers. However all of these are situational and the ones that give you lots tend to run dry...

Flyrants hidden in unit of gargoyles allowing cover save with paroxysmto help keep safe from nearby enemy units.

Stealers with broodlords act as new vanguard army. Alpha warrior as HQ may fill the role of Broodlord as an HQ.

Shadow in the warp will help stop MCs succumbing to Force Weapons now EW has been removed.


Cosmic Girl's excellent unit summary can be found here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=71
And for special characters:http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=143

itcamefromthedeep's biovore mini tactica can be found here:http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=110

[WH40KAj]

Tyranid Summary 5th Edition

Here is a summary for all you new (and old) to Tyranids. Its will follow popular debate on current issues as well as a summary of each unit.

Links to current rules debates (all are taken off the Warseer rules forum):

Tyranid CCWs
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239476

Doom of Malantai
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241148

Mawloc (most current thread)
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242612

General Tyranid FAQ questions
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239681

Changes to note from 4th to 5th Edition

1) Synapse no longer provides eternal warrior, or passes any leadership based test. It only grants fearless now.

2) Instinctive Behaviour has split into two parts: Lurk (Effectively stands and shoots, or runs to cover and shoots) and Feed (Rage USR).

3) Shadow in the Warp is on every synapse creature, similar to before without discarding.

These are the basic army wide changes. In many ways they work better (they also count troops as scoring now for instance). In others, not so much (no longer fall back to a synapse creature is a good example). Each will be covered on every specific unit.

Now with them out of the way, I will make a summary of each unit and how people are looking to run them. These types are by no means the community say “you must have”, but more generally accepted builds. Furthermore, some commentary will be my own. Some I may refer to others. Statistical analysis to be added later.

Tyranid Units

Hive Tyrant
Swarmlord
Tyrant Guard Brood
Tervigon
Tervigons normally are a HQ choice. However, they can also be taken as a Troops choice when a Termagant unit is taken. This affords them several other advantages. Firstly, it allows you to take a HQ selection instead. Secondly and most importantly, they count as scoring monstrous creatures. This combined with their decent save and high wound counter makes them great objective holders. They are also reasonably cheap if you consider their toughness and wounds. This is before their primary role is even mentioned. The Tervigons main ability is infact, to spawn termagants. These Termagants get spawned as a 3D6 unit and count as normal basic troops choices. They get to spawn within 6” and then still get to move. This allows them to get out there quite far, and the main bonus of this is in objective games. This is good as it will allow have many more scoring units to help you fight with quite fast. It also allows you to potentially spam the board with a horde of small gribbles, if you don’t roll a double. Multiple Tervigons in a list would be a good base for an army, though this would cost you four troops selections (2 Tervigon 2 Termagants). You can also give your Tervigons a wealth of options. Acid blood for instance puts a deterrent on assaulting the creature. Adrenal Glands allow the Tervigon to go before powerfists in an assault and toxin sacs allow it to hurt all units. The adrenal glands and toxin sacs abilities are also conferred onto the termagants, as well as counterattack within 6inches. This can potentially make a free unit very strong on the charge, particularly against marines. Against marines they will strike first and re-roll to wound on the charge. On top of this, you have a good range of weaponry with average range on them. Cluster spines are free and allow a str5 large blast, this is the best one and the one I prefer although it allows saves. Finally, you have three unique psychic powers with the Tervigon: Dominate, Catalyst & Onslaught. Dominate comes as standard and allows you to cast 18” synapse BEFORE synapse is tested. This handy little power will allow you to prevent any effects of lurk or feed when you least want them. It gives you an element of control, which can be particularly useful late in the game. Catalyst allows you to cast feel no pain universal special rule on any friendly unit in the movement phase. This is a fairly cheap power and allows protection to any unit. Good units to cast on are Warriors, Hive Tyrants, Hiveguard and any bullet-shield. (I personally like feel no pain ripper swarm units are a good unit to soak fire, though rippers contest the troop choice). Onslaught psychic power allows you run and then shoot in the same shooting phase, you may also assault if allowed. The only drawback I can see to this unit is that it is a shooting attack, so you cannot shoot with the Tervigon after using this power. Good units to use this on are Dakka-Tyrants, Dakka-Fexes, walking Zoanthropes (allowing them to charge 1st turn potentially) and Devilgants. Anything with 18inch range seems optimum.
The final thing to watch out for is when the Tervigon dies, it will hurt all gaunt units if within 6inches. The obvious solution is keep them out of 6inches if you think the Tervigon will die.
Tyranid Prime
Parasite of Mortrex
Hiveguard Brood
Lictor Brood
Deathleaper
Venomthrope Brood
Venomthropes are pretty unique. They compete for elite slots, they also have multiple benefits that make them fairly good. They are reasonably well costed, they are multi-wound models and they are effectively mobile cover units. All units within 6” get defensive grenades, a cover and count as being in dangerous terrain. This puts off enemies assaulting without grenades, as they would be assaulting at initative 1, without a charging attack. This covers a wide range of units from Orks to Dark Eldar. Daemon princes and other monstrous creatures are also covered. This can potentially cripple assault armies. The Venomthrope also gives you army wide cover against all shooting if you are smart. They are best used to protect your monstrous creatures from the wide range of AP3/2/1 weaponry that is prolific out there. Their real downside is they are prone of be sniped by instant-death. They also are unfortunate to be competing with Hiveguard, Malan-Tai, Deathleaper and Zoanthropes for elite choices. These factors will make them rarely seen in anything but swarm armies, but they are a good unit regardless.
Potential Ideas for use:

Zoanthrope Brood
The Doom of Malan’Tai
Pyrovore Brood
Ymgarl Genestealer Brood
Tyranid Warrior Brood
Genestealer Brood
Termagant Brood
Hormagaunt Brood
Ripper Swarm Brood
Tyranid Shrike Brood
Ravener Brood
Sky-Slasher Brood
Gargoyle Brood
Harpy
Spore Mine Cluster
Carnifex Brood
Old One Eye
Biovore Brood
Trygon
Mawloc
Tyrannofex
Mycetic Spore

Tyranids In Planetstrike
From Abusepuppy:
On Planetstrike:

On the attack, make sure everything you have can Deep Strike. Everything. Mycetic Spores (yes, this counts, ask any Marine player). Trygons (better than Mawlocs- you can start hurting the turn you arrive), Raveners, Gargoyles, anything. But make sure you can Deep Strike. You want to come out swinging, and a first-turn assault is a great way to do it. Aim your firestorm at his buildings, not units; you want to be diving directly into combat to "hide" there, so eliminating his bastions as quickly as possible will be important. The Strategic Drop asset is golden for us- it gives d3 units frag, krak, and melta grenades. Ever wanted to charge your Genestealers into cover and laugh? Ever wanted your Gargoyles to assault and wreck a Land Raider? Now you can! The asset that allows you to bring a single Troops choice back into the game (I forget the name) can also be useful to respawn a Tervigon, who will now have a full complement of Gaunts again. Hypertrophic Flora is useful to lay lots of additional cover, but if you're assaulting the turn you arrive it's a moot point.

As defender, your choices are a lot more limited. You'll want to focus on tough shooty units and strong countercharges. A Doom of Malan'tai would be good for depositing in the middle of enemy formations assaulting your buildings. Tyrannofexes will make good fire support and large squads of Devilgaunts hiding in buildings can pour out a ridiculous amount of firepower- but keep in mind your short range. Tervigons with lines of Termagants can make decent "barriers" around your important bastions; hide them in cover to give them some survivability and you're looking at a wall of Counterattacking Poisoned Ld10 little bastards with aMC to back them up. Don't forget about disrupting your opponent's backline- they will probably have some number of artillery units in their Drop Zone pouring fire onto you. Make sure you have some Lictors/Death Leaper/Raveners/Trygons to break up their little party.

[d6juggernaut]

I'm thinking of starting Nids when the new codex comes out, I'm a huge fan of warriors and lictors so my army will probably be based around them. I heard that if alpha warrior is in a warrior squad they gain toughness and WS bonus, is that true? Because if that's the case, the whole ID thing won't be that big of a deal since only force weapon and crazy S10 weapons can instant kill them.

[RampagingRavener]

I heard that if alpha warrior is in a warrior squad they gain toughness and WS bonus, is that true?

Half-true; it's a WS and BS bonus, increasing Warriors to match the Alpha Warriors stats of WS6 and BS4.

[Shadowfax]

Here's a topic for discussion;

I've been wondering how much anti-tank people are going to feel is necessary in big games versus potentially armour-heavy armies (IG, SM, Eldar etc.).

It seems like 3x Hive Guard + 3x Zoanthropes (either walking or podding) have become the default anti-tank core. But is that enough? Obviously, they will be buffered by the CC units in the army that either rend, have a high base strength, or roll 2D6 penetration, but those units may have other entanglements and/or may not be able to catch the armour in CC.

So does the Heavy Venom Cannon on a monstrous creature become a worthwhile tool? To me it's not a very cost effective upgrade on any MC besides the Harpy (and the Harpy sucks for other reasons). But if there's no other option, the HVC may have to do. So is the Tyrant the best platform for it?

Of course, all of this assumes the Tyranid player doesn't simply double up on HG or Zoans (but I think a lot of players will want to keep that third Elites spot open for something fun like Ymgarls, Death Leaper, Venomthropes, etc.)

[blackjack]

Yea stuipedly enough. GW decided to put all the decent anti tank in the elite slot. Great thinking....


Anti Tank remains an unsolved puzzle at this point, 3 zoans in a pod and 3 hive guard will not cut it in my environment. Frankly with Eldar and Librarians being so common Zoans are not particularly good choices either.

[airmang]

Deahleaper will be a good choice to help stop those Eldar and Librarians from getting their powers off. And will help Nids get more powers off against Hoods.

[tazguy95]

Of course, all of this assumes the Tyranid player doesn't simply double up on HG or Zoans (but I think a lot of players will want to keep that third Elites spot open for something fun like Ymgarls, Death Leaper, Venomthropes, etc.)

On the topic of fun third elite choices, I found venomthropes to be extremely delightful, due to the fact that my gaunts get 5+ cover saves, much to the hate of my opponent.

[PurchasedPig]

Don't forget Tyrannofexes, they are very expensive but really cool! and S10, 2 shots is always nice.
- PurchasedPig -

[magicmonkey]

does anyone know why all the monsters are twice as much as they used to be

[tazguy95]

does anyone know why all the monsters are twice as much as they used to be

Hive Tyrant- He's got souped up stats (ws of 8), his weapons are crazy (possible instant death! and makes enemies initiative 1!), he gets two psychic powers for free and he's just groovy.

Carnifex- Now this is the one to complain about if you complain, but he does come with his two pairs of scything talons, better stats and the battering ram special rule (+2I on the charge). Generally though he is a BIT expensive.

Yet I mostly think they're also emphasising on the hordey lists by making the MCs expensive.

[blackjack]

Don't forget Tyrannofexes, they are very expensive but really cool! and S10, 2 shots is always nice.

2 str 10 shots at BS 3 for more than a Land Raider!!?? This is what we are supposed to thank GW for!?

For less than 150pts I used to get 2 str 10 and 1 str 8 large plate at BS 3 on T6 multi wound critter that pretty much always had a cover save.

Gee thanks GW....

Hordes are usless without anti tank. All the anti tank is stuipedly expensive or unreliable leaving no points to make a horde with.

I have not seen a dex suck this hard since Daemons.

[tazguy95]

2 str 10 shots at BS 3 for more than a Land Raider!!?? This is what we are supposed to thank GW for!?

For less than 150pts I used to get 2 str 10 and 1 str 8 large plate at BS 3 on T6 multi wound critter that pretty much always had a cover save.

Gee thanks GW....

Hordes are usless without anti tank. All the anti tank is stuipedly expensive or unreliable leaving no points to make a horde with.

I have not seen a dex suck this hard since Daemons.

Actually tyrannofexes get other weapons as well as the one mentioned, automatically. And also this codex does not suck (and why does daemons either they are amazing), sure it may have it's terrible downfalls, but you'll find that most codexes have terrible configurations. Even though it has it's downfalls it does have some rather spiffing options as well (THE DOOOOOOM!!!) and I also believe it has good anti-tank in the form of cheap zoanthropes and hive guard.

Anyway back on topic, has anyone tested the Doom of Malantai podding next to some grot units? Trust me it's very entertaining...

[Shadowfax]

T-fexes are not "really cool". They're trash, false promise, an illusion.

Actually, let me modify that by saying they're probably good enough for clearing out vast swathes of enemy infantry (not that the other units in the list have any problems doing that), but their anti-tank loadout is unacceptable.

[airmang]

OMG! i almost feel sorry for the Grots.

[blackjack]

Yea, the "other guns" the T fex get are not anti tank thus usless in the role. Paying points for something that does not fill the role the unit suppose to fill is throwing points away.

In my meta over half the armies are Marines or Eldar, this means Zoans are next to uselss as they get warp blast cut down a further 50% on top of their low BS 3.

Hive guard are good, really good actually, if we could get a Str 9 or 10 single shot version of hive guard for the same poins as the st 8 double shot version our problems would be over.

[Shadowfax]

Our anti-tank problems would be over, but we'd all lose our hearing from the complaints we'd get out of our opponents.

Hive Guard are already too good for their cost. Letting them take Assault 24" lascannons would just make it worse.

[Megad00mer]

2 str 10 shots at BS 3 for more than a Land Raider!!?? This is what we are supposed to thank GW for!?

A Tyrannofex can't be immobilized. A Tyrannofex can't have it's guns blown off. A Tyrannofex can't be destroyed by a lucky lascannon shot. It's got a 2+ save, 48" range and 6 wounds. It SHOULD be more than a Land Raider.

A Land Raider also can't receive Feel No Pain from a supporting unit.

For less than 150pts I used to get 2 str 10 and 1 str 8 large plate at BS 3 on T6 multi wound critter that pretty much always had a cover save.

Gee thanks GW....

The Tyranid MCs, especially Carnifexes were stupidly under-costed before. The new point costs are really not that bad. They're actually worth their points now. Imagine that. You just got too used to your too good to be true, "we wanna sell Carnifex kits" bargain 4th ed. point cost.

Hordes are usless without anti tank. All the anti tank is stuipedly expensive or unreliable leaving no points to make a horde with.

Deep Strike a brood of 3 Zoanthropes next to a Land Raider. You will retract that statement. Use Hive Guard (which are T6 with a 3+ save) on AV 10-12 Transports, then tell me our Anti-Tank is stupidly expensive or unreliable.

I have not seen a dex suck this hard since Daemons.

You obviously are jumping onto the Whineseer bandwagon and haven't played the new Codex, let alone read it. It's quite powerful. It just takes actual thinking to do well with it. Unlike Nidzilla which was a "wind up" army that pretty much played itself.

[tazguy95]

A Tyrannofex can't be immobilized. A Tyrannofex can't have it's guns blown off. A Tyrannofex can't be destroyed by a lucky lascannon shot. It's got a 2+ save, 48" range and 6 wounds. It SHOULD be more than a Land Raider.

A Land Raider also can't receive Feel No Pain from a supporting unit.



The Tyranid MCs, especially Carnifexes were stupidly under-costed before. The new point costs are really not that bad. They're actually worth their points now. Imagine that. You just got too used to your too good to be true, "we wanna sell Carnifex kits" bargain 4th ed. point cost.



Deep Strike a brood of 3 Zoanthropes next to a Land Raider. You will retract that statement. Use Hive Guard (which are T6 with a 3+ save) on AV 10-12 Transports, then tell me our Anti-Tank is stupidly expensive or unreliable.



You obviously are jumping onto the Whineseer bandwagon and haven't played the new Codex, let alone read it. It's quite powerful. It just takes actual thinking to do well with it. Unlike Nidzilla which was a "wind up" army that pretty much played itself.

Hear Hear!

[Volandum]

A Tyrannofex may not be destroyed by a lucky lascannon shot, but it certainly falls to lascannon faster than a Raider - 9 lascannon hits will take it out, whereas they'll only penetrate the Raider once or twice - it takes twice that much on average to kill the Raider.