Tyranid 2010 Tactica Discussion

[bebe]

Commando squads are small 5-6 man squads- with Broodlord infiltrating. They sit in cover and wait for the opportune target. It is quite difficult to kill off a small squad in cover and it can 'go to ground' if needed as well.
They are a forward support unit capable of handling most troops on foot and can immobilize transports as well. If you choose to give the BL Implant Attack you can hunt ICs. Commando squads work best when you want
the BLs auras as a part of your game plan. If you use Shrikes with Boneswords, Flyrants with the right psychic powers, Doom, etc., those auras can be effective as well. They are like a small guerrilla task force on the table.
Hence the name 'commando'. Now I have been using slightly larger ones ... 6 stealers with BL ... and liked the set up. Whether it can be spammed is another issue. Therefore my original question. I think I'll just have to test
it out starting with two infiltrating broods and two outflankers and see how that goes.

10 genestealers TS 160

Is that the correct cost? Should be 170 I think.

[Stunt]

I'm a little surprised that no one has used the commando set up for stealers with success. I admit i haven't used it as all my troop slots but I've used a squad in the past with great results. I'm a big fan of BLs. Aura, gaze, scoring even id there are only him and a stealer left we now have T5.
I'll admit that Implant Attack is a contentious point but I have in the past used it with smaller squads and managed to kill an IC. You are infiltrating no? You can position yourself to deal damage. You can use commando squads as bait. Maybe I'm missing something.

Hi there,

I am a long time reader and you finally convinced me to contribute this thread. I have played Tyranid since the last codex came out, so my vision of Tyranids was not biased by the previous codices. For personal reasons, I decided I would play Tyranid with no range weapons. I don't know from where you are, I am from France and here, we have tournaments that give you points if you don't play the powerhouse builds everyone knows. That's why my army has done so well. Without range weapons, I had to focus on speed, that's why every single unit in my army has Fleet or Wings. Moreover, every unit has one or more alternative deployment option.

That's it for the context, now on commando Stealers. I began by using 3 squads of 8 toxic Stealers + BL with talons but I quicly changed for 5 squads of 4 toxic Stealers + BL with talons. The BL is expensive but he gives you flexibility, you can put wounds on him early to preserve your attack count or put wounds on the Stealers to get a 4W E5 Squad. His Gaze his a life saver when you have to charge an MC in cover, and the combined aura of 5 BLs combined to SitW can make you more confident of charging GKs with your MCs. With only 5 models a squad, it is easier to infiltrate out of line of sigth for first turn charges. A lot of people underestimate the amount of firepower needed to wipeout a single squad, you can play wound allocation with the BL and get E5 when the first 3 Stealers are down. And if they wipeout one squad, you have 4 others ready to assault.

I won't lie to you, commando Stealers are not auto-win, you have to be really familiar with the assault rules to bypass the worst drawback of Stealers : the lack of offensive grenades. What hurts this army a lot is wall of armor because you have to charge the vehicules and then get a round of shooting (often without cover). To counter this, my list propose as much immediate threats as possible and it has proved efficient. The armies I have difficulties beating are Dark Eldar (no need to tell you why^^) and Draigo wing (15 point grenades, you know...)

Anyway, I hope this will prove helpful to you and maybe others. Believe me it is a lot more fun to play than 9 Hive Guards, 2 Tervigons and 40 Stealers. I must admit it won't ever match the power of this build but for me it is not about winning, it is about challenging my "army commanding" logic and finding new ways of devouring power armour wearing super-humans ! Have fun

[bebe]

Ah. Summarized my thoughts with great clarification.

That being the case I think I'll use this ...

== PoMDoMination ==

Parasite of Mortex(1)- 160
Zoanthrope(2), Mycetic Spore(1) - 180
Doom of Malantai(1), Mycetic Spore(1) - 130
4x Genestealers(5), Toxin Sacs, Broodlord(1), Scything Talons - 600
Ripper Swarm(5), Toxin Sacs, Tunnel Swarm - 80
Gargoyles(19), Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands - 152
Shrikes(5), Dual Boneswords, Adrenal Glands, Rending - 275
2x Trygon(1), Adrenal Glands - 420

== 2000 ==
KPs - 14
Models - 61
MCs - 6

Nothing too fancy. Drive up table with the Gargs and Parasite/Shrike, infiltrate two or three stealer squads, have Trygons follow the big blob for cover and DS the rest. Auras should make those boneswords and Doom and three sources of SitW better. It still a struggles against Draigo and DE although may beat DE occasionally. No Tervs, no HG and no T-Fexes.

[PostinDirty]

Why is that how they should be? they didn't work that way in RT either - 2nd just made them overpowered.

overpowered or one of the raddest guns in the game? ...

We'll have to agree to disagree - If I could change any weapon in the entire game it would be Assault Cannon, put them down again in price, and back to something other than the best weapon for all roles. If there is a single best answer for all problems it's very bad for the game. The Assault Cannon issue is far worse than the 3-4th StarCannon issue that was nerfed for that very reason.

and this is why we disagree; there's no assault cannon issue for me because i have never seen assault cannons dominate in the way you suggest they do. their use seems some what limited and restricted, and often they are available in the presence of other attractive weapon options.
even looking at internet lists, there doesn't seem to be a consensus that they should be spammed as being the 'greatest weapon' for all roles; except in the case of razor-spammed GK henchmen armies, but that's with psybolt ammunition slapped on top.

but yes, its a versatile weapon I totally agree; I just don't see how that develops into an issue, because that's exactly what the weapon is supposed to be.

feel free to disagree of course, I realise i'm being subjective and that my love for assault cannoncs extends to building a contemptor with two kheres pattern ACs and a cyclone ML muaha

[Kelanen]

overpowered or one of the raddest guns in the game? ...

Just overpowered. Are you like 15?

and this is why we disagree; there's no assault cannon issue for me because i have never seen assault cannons dominate in the way you suggest they do. their use seems some what limited and restricted, and often they are available in the presence of other attractive weapon options.

The others are only attractive because they massively increased the cost of the Assault Cannon to compensate, and improved the other weapons - like doubling the firepower of Cyclones and Typhoons (and changing Typhoons to ML's in some cases rather than S5 Blasts). So rather than put Assault Cannon down to it's proper power level, we had massive power creep and an arms race instead. Until very recently, Codexes using old versions of the Cyclone and Typhoon (eg: BT and DA) were massively disadvantaged, and it was Assault Cannons without fail.

As to not being able to see that one weapon being the best option for all roles is a bad thing, I'm afraid you have the blinkered vision of a player wanting cookies, not a designer. As a design decision it's terrible.

I'm afraid you come off as a someone with a love of assault cannons, and that colours everything for you. Frankly I don't care if it's a peashooter - it's the stats that matter nothing else.

...and yes I have a double Kheres/CML Mortis Contemptor for my CSM. Again, it's so good, that nothing else compares, there is no other pattern worth taking - not even the proper CSM variants. That's kinda my point!

[PostinDirty]

woah there sonny, didn't know we'd graduated to put-downs already

and easy on the blinkered comments - your assessment just overpowered' is just as relative as anything else. i don't play with assault cannons because i think they are the best weapon - because they're not; stat-wise, sure, they're great. but a weapon in this game isn't simply its stat-line, but also its points-cost (as you've pointed out) as well as the platforms is can be mounted upon. being the best weapon for every situation matters little if you don't have points to use them optimally. as a result I see them rarely in Marine armies, befitting of a weapon of such an 'overpowered' nature.

currently, as a design issue it works because you don't see the spamming of that weapon in the current gaming environment. it happened in the past, but rending all round was a hell of a lot more vicious back then.

and i guess that's what this discussion stemmed from - that rending started to become homogenous, whereas it used to be the exclusive rule for genestealers. I agree with the sentiment there, that the handing out of rending was over-done. I'd appreciate the old version of rending to come back, and to go back to being exclusive to 'stealers. but i'd still want assault cannons to be something more than the lame 3 shot weapon they were in 3rd though.

and the twin kheres contemptor is just a funny unit - i just offered it up because i wanted to let you know i try to be objective about these disagreements, but that there's a little side of me that likes ridiculously OTT units in the game. heck, I'd argue regular marine armies actually need it competitively in the face of the crap BAs and GKs can churn out

[brassangel]

9 Hive Guard are a bad choice. You are wasting 150 points on Tyranids that don't do what Tyranids do, and really won't help the ones that do effectively what Tyranids do much more than 6. Follow? 6 is all you need. Any more is a complete waste and will leave you disappointed.

I also don't understand the logic of running Trygons behind blobs. For what? Cover? That's a massive waste. Whatever advantage one hopes to gain by providing cover to a Trygon is lost because he now spends an extra 1-2 turns NOT in combat. That's what happens when he's hiding in a crowd: his movement is severely hampered, and the whole army has to move a specific way to accommodate.

I've won a lot of tournaments and general games with Tyranids in 5th edition, and I've never hidden my Trygons. I put them out front like an offensive line, giving everything else cover so I can swarm, claim objectives, etc. They will draw all the fire, because there isn't an army in the game that can afford letting Trygons hit their lines by turn 2. I've also never once faced an opponent who was able to focus-fire them off before they hit combat. Space Wolves, IG, Coteaz GK's, 70 S6 shot Eldar, - the shootiest armies in the game, and they all end up scratching their heads when the Trygons hit their lines. Maybe they pick one off, but that means they spent about 1500 points to clip one model, and your strategy as a Tyranids player is very much alive, along with most of your army.

I used to try to hide them, and they were mopey. They often died, or didn't do anything until way too late in the game. Now, they hit early, draw a ton of fire, and lock things down/murder them while the rest of my broods go exactly where I need them to. Support them against a Deathstar with some Tervigon-buffed gaunts and watch hilarity ensue. Run into all the MSU's out there and wipe them out in a hurry - against Grey Knights, they make their points back in one combat. Armies will redirect their important ranged units to the flanks to stay away, which is perfect for infiltrating or flanking Genestealers. I pull the whole formation forward with the protection of Venomthropes and an attached Tyranid Prime.

I am interested in giving this "Commando" project a try, however. I want to use Broodlords, but have avoided doing so until I can collect some of the Space Hulk plastics.

Just overpowered. Are you like 15?

The others are only attractive because they massively increased the cost of the Assault Cannon to compensate, and improved the other weapons - like doubling the firepower of Cyclones and Typhoons (and changing Typhoons to ML's in some cases rather than S5 Blasts). So rather than put Assault Cannon down to it's proper power level, we had massive power creep and an arms race instead. Until very recently, Codexes using old versions of the Cyclone and Typhoon (eg: BT and DA) were massively disadvantaged, and it was Assault Cannons without fail.

As to not being able to see that one weapon being the best option for all roles is a bad thing, I'm afraid you have the blinkered vision of a player wanting cookies, not a designer. As a design decision it's terrible.

I'm afraid you come off as a someone with a love of assault cannons, and that colours everything for you. Frankly I don't care if it's a peashooter - it's the stats that matter nothing else.

...and yes I have a double Kheres/CML Mortis Contemptor for my CSM. Again, it's so good, that nothing else compares, there is no other pattern worth taking - not even the proper CSM variants. That's kinda my point!

With the exception of Blood Angels, no competitive MEQ armies use Assault Cannons. They use twin-linked Autocannons. Assault Cannons are not the best at anything. Power creep is also a myth. If it were true, Tyranids would be OP compared to Orks, Eldar, and IG. Dark Eldar would be pulverizing all the Space Wolves lists, and Necrons would be the most dominant thing ever. Granted, they are rising in popularity, and have posted a number of top 10 finishes, but it's not because of power creep in a piece of wargear. Are you going to tell me Beastmen and Tomb Kings are products of power creep in WHFB? They are newer, after all. Certainly more powerful than Warriors of Chaos, Daemons, and Dark Elves, right? Skaven shouldn't have a chance against the newer books...except it's arguably the most powerful and balanced book in either system...

"Power creep" is an arbitrary statement made by the uninformed because it's easy to regurgitate, and most can avoid controversy by just accepting it.

[bebe]

I also don't understand the logic of running Trygons behind blobs. For what? Cover? That's a massive waste.

You understand this is a fast blob right? Gargs and Shrikes that will ensure the Trygon is in assault range quickly. You are only hiding them a turn. I agree that they must get into the fray quickly, I just want them to arrive safely. I had not thought thought of using them as an offensive line taking every S8 shot in my opponents arsenal. I would rather the Gargs took the early fire. Might try it out though. Our lists differ quite a lot. I have no Tervigons, catalyst, etc., in my list. I don't have scoring gaunts. I rely on cc and rending MCS to take out vehicles. My Zoans and Doom are not nearly enough. I've been around awhile too. I have had decent success with Nids until lately as codex creep has been catching up quickly along with the NidZilla nerfs. I play three armies now ...

1) BA Blood Rodeo - my style - This is always challenging and competitive. It is not the 3++ list or the Stelek list. I use bikes and ASM though but mix in devastators and sometimes DC or Termies. It can really roll over certain lists but it must be played near perfect and I'm prone to making silly mistakes in game because I really don't take gaming too seriously. I want to have fun and if I lose, meh.

2) My off the wall Nid lists - I'm going to have some fun with Nids now and use units that are not seen often. I used to play play pure NidZilla before the new codex effectively neutered half my army. Luckily I could still use my Gargs and Stealers from some of my old lists.

3) My elite Paladin/Terminator Draigo list - Again mostly for fun as I have only 19 models at 1850 on the table and I use 'gasp' Karamazov trickery. Still it has pulled off some wins. Overall though it can be tabled if a seasoned opponent sees what I'm up to quickly or I roll average or below. It needs a bit of luck to succeed and it needs to surprise. A veteran will generally know how to deal with it. GK purifier spam or even 50 GKs in rhinos backed by Psyfledreads is way better overall. But to beat a guy with 19 models ... got to love that. And I had my old inquisition models that I ported easily to the new list - used Karamazov a lot in the old edition and he was better but he got a bit of the nerf bat too. He is still useful though.

Power creep is also a myth.

Are we serious here? GK, BA, IG, SW and DE got quantitatively better compared to what they were. Six out of twelve top lists at Adepticon went to GK. Sure ... I saw an Ork and Eldar list sneak in and there were no IG. So I agree that we should not fall back on that excuse. But the newest codex - Necrons - saw what happened with GK. So the boosts were not as dramatic. They are still much better though. They are meched up to compete. Nids are not. We are not talking about power creep in one piece of wargear but the overall power of the last five or six codexes. You did notice that none of the serious whack gamers took Nids. In fact no one took Nids to Adepticon. There is a reason for that. I still will play them and I'll still get my wins but Nids are much harder to win with now than in their last rendition.

Anyway - my two and half cents worth. I'm sure some will see it differently.

[Inevitable]

Primary Goal is a Swarmy, close-combat focused army.

Question 1:
How much more value do 2 Trygon's w/ Regen hold -v- 1 Trygon 1 Mawloc. I really like the idea/look/theme of the Mawloc but its really only a small cost savings over a Trygon. How does everyone feel on 2 Trygon -v- 1 Trygon 1 Mawloc?

Question 2:
Hormagaunt options on a 30 pack. I like toxin sacs. Is Adren worth it as well as toxin sacs?

Question 3:
Gargoyle Options on a 30 pack. Adren & Toxin or one or the other?

[White_13oy]

So, I'm slowly starting a 'Nid force built around my favorite models/units. The one thing I can't figure out is what troops to best compliment them with. I'm pretty sure I'm going to get the standard vajayjayfex and termagaunts, but I'd prefer to styay away from that as I don't really care for them. The rest are all cool IMO. Basically the must haves are:

Swarmlord

3x Lictors
3x Lictors
Deathleaper
Trygon
Trygon
6x Ravaners, Deathspitters

What would do you guys say?

[Vipoid]

So, I'm slowly starting a 'Nid force built around my favorite models/units. The one thing I can't figure out is what troops to best compliment them with. I'm pretty sure I'm going to get the standard vajayjayfex and termagaunts, but I'd prefer to styay away from that as I don't really care for them. The rest are all cool IMO. Basically the must haves are:

Swarmlord

3x Lictors
3x Lictors
Deathleaper
Tervagon
Tervagon
6x Ravaners, Deathspitters

What would do you guys say?

Well, firstly, what the hell is a "vajayjayfex"?

Second, I assume this list is not meant to be competative in any way, so just add whatever units you like.

[Kelanen]

Unfortunately Raveners are weak because of the multi-wound model problem, and Lictors are outright terrible. Deathleaper is what the basic Lictor should have been, and isn't bad, apart from taking an Elite slot, and in a competitive build those only belong to Hive Guard and Zoanthropes.

So... the Tervigons are good. The rest, no...

[Carnage]

Unfortunately Raveners are weak because of the multi-wound model problem, and Lictors are outright terrible. Deathleaper is what the basic Lictor should have been, and isn't bad, apart from taking an Elite slot, and in a competitive build those only belong to Hive Guard and Zoanthropes.

So... the Tervigons are good. The rest, no...

Agreed, but I'll stipulate that raveners aren't AWFUL, they are just mediocre. Compared to warriors they have all the same weaknesses and less armour to boot, but make up largely for that with their obscene charge range. Being able to cover 19-24 inches in a turn can often mean a turn 1 charge. Of course they are match-up dependent, as powerfists and mech walls will ruin their day.

Also need to reiterate just how terrible lictors and death leaper are. They fight for the slot of worst unit in the game.

[ChromeZephyr]

Well, firstly, what the hell is a "vajayjayfex"?

Second, I assume this list is not meant to be competative in any way, so just add whatever units you like.

It's a crude nickname for a Tervigon, I think. "Vajayjay" is another word for female genitalia. I feel dirty for knowing this.

[White_13oy]

I noticed I put the wrong unit down, so I updated my post.
And yes that is a crude nickname, but I toned down the usage that is used around here. I knew lictors were bad, but I didn't think THAT bad. And compeditive is completely not required, but I'd rather not be a complete easy win. Can the units do decent with some luck and tactics?

[Vipoid]

It's a crude nickname for a Tervigon, I think. "Vajayjay" is another word for female genitalia. I feel dirty for knowing this.

I see...

I kinda expected Tervigon to end with '-gon', ending with '-fex' makes it sound like you're talking about the carnifex or tyrannofex.

I knew lictors were bad, but I didn't think THAT bad. And compeditive is completely not required, but I'd rather not be a complete easy win. Can the units do decent with some luck and tactics?

Deathleaper *might* do alright against an army with a strong psyker. Other lictors... no. Just no. They're 65pts apiece for T4 and a save that might as well not exist. If they could assault the turn they arrived, they might be alright. But, as it stands, you can just deploy them near an enemy (maybe shoot your peashooters at them, and pretend you actually have a gun) and spend the turn getting shot to death. Worst. Ambush. Ever.

You might be able to recover from using 1 unit of lictors/deathleaper, but 3... not a chance. Against mech, you're totally screwed. You really need at least two of your elite slots for hive guard.

[White_13oy]

My most regular opponents are GK and SW, and the SW player takes Njal ans armor save doesn't matter with the GK. Darn, I was really hoping I wasn't going to go two for two for favorite units being worthless (The other are the Mandrakes, man I love those guys).

[Vipoid]

My most regular opponents are GK and SW,

You poor soul.

Darn, I was really hoping I wasn't going to go two for two for favorite units being worthless (The other are the Mandrakes, man I love those guys).

To be fair, Mandrakes at least bring a couple of unique things (infiltration, AP4 weapons) to the table. They're not the best unit in the codex, but (unlike lictors) they're not horrible, and using them won't cripple your army.

[White_13oy]

They bring AP4 if they kill something, which the only time i've seen them do is to deathstar'd SM bikes, but then i died that turn

Do Lictors fair any better at smaller point games? I was now thinking of making my 'nids a 1250 based list. Basically having:

Swarmlord
Troop
Troop
Death Leaper
2x Lictors
2x Lictors
Trygon Prime, regen, Adrenal Glands

But I still can't figure out which troops are the best choice, Hormagaunts, Warriors, Genestealers. Also am I better off just making one 3man Lictor and getting more troops? I could also min max and just get more Lictors lol.

[Vipoid]

They bring AP4 if they kill something, which the only time i've seen them do is to deathstar'd SM bikes, but then i died that turn

Fair enough, I was just pointing out that they do actually bring some things otherwise unavailable to DE.

Do Lictors fair any better at smaller point games?

Maybe at 500pts, but even then I'd consider it a big risk.

I was now thinking of making my 'nids a 1250 based list. Basically having:

Swarmlord
Troop
Troop
Death Leaper
2x Lictors
2x Lictors
Trygon Prime, regen, Adrenal Glands

Well, you still have nothing to deal with transports. Swarmlord will be lucky to live to turn 3. And, most likely, your lictors still won't do anything.

Sorry, this isn't a problem with game-size, this is a problem with Lictors having some of the worst rules of any unit, ever.

But I still can't figure out which troops are the best choice, Hormagaunts, Warriors, Genestealers.

Termagants and Tervigons are the best troops.

Probably genestealers after them.

Also am I better off just making one 3man Lictor and getting more troops? I could also min max and just get more Lictors lol.

From a competative standpoint, you're better off throwing your lictors in the bin and just getting lots more troops.