only infantry comes through the Trygon hole, raveners are beasts so cannot by raw. Id deploy them normally anyway. Im having a hard time with my elite choices, the decent venomthrope means im pairing my hiveguard to take podding doomboy. More bizzarely im finding a role for pyrovores! Seems good in theory anyway.
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Tyranids (31Tabled) W48/D4/L6 5th Ed Counter
Dark Eldar (2 Tabled) W0/D0/L2 5th Ed Counter
I'm mildly irritated by the new dex. I had hoped they would make a true horde army viable, but this dex has not addressed some of the biggest issues a horde army has. I think that a successful Tyranid codex will have to have a large number of monstrous creatures and Genestealers, if only to ensure that they can stick around/not give up kill points.
Let me explain. I am (was?) one of a small number of Tyranid players that fielded hormogaunts in 4th ed. I don't mean a few, either, I regularly fielded 40+ or so in 1850 pt games (2 units of 20 or so). I only had 3 monstrous creatures at those points. And I played very, very well. In 4th ed, however, there were problems. A horde of toughness 3 creatures has incredible problems if it gets charged or if it charges into cover. In either case, it'll do less damage to the other unit that it will take (assuming the other unit is anything but IG). That leaves two options: if the hormogaunts are in synapse range, they take the difference in wounds, which can sometime gut the unit completely, if not outright kill them. Or, they could roll leadership, get unlucky on their initiative roll, and get run over. Considering that cover is basically a given on today's playing boards, you really had to assume that you would always be charging into it.
The solution to the problem was to make the hormogaunts even more expensive and hard-hitting on the charge--I did it by upping their strength and buying everything I could flesh hooks. By guaranteeing their getting the first strike in almost every combat, I could reduce the other units' numbers enough before their attacks to ensure that the 'gaunts won the combats.
Of course, then there were problems with surviving the subsequent shooting phase, yadda yadda, but that's another story. Basically, you needed to be able to get the first attacks in, no matter what. Any other option leaves you hanging.
The new codex has absolutely no way to get a horde hormagaunt unit (or even 'stealers) into CC against a decent unit in cover without taking unacceptable losses. I've run the numbers, and it just can't be done. To get the gaunts into combat, without them taking unacceptable losses, you'd need to first have a unit engage the guys in cover, survive a turn, and then get the hormagaunts into it the 2nd round. And I'm not talking against some specialist troops here--a single squad of Chaos SM in cover can basically hold them off.
To add insult to injury, the best units to charge into cover are units that are either wielding Lash Whips, or Carnifexes with adrenal glands and frag spikes. Lash whips can be wielded by Tyrants, tyrant guard, and warriors (let's not mention the venomthrope--that thing is hardly a frontline fighter). Warriors are hideously expensive, have bad armor saves, and can be instapunked by missile launchers, power fists, or just boltered to death. Which basically leaves the monstrous creatures and the tyrant guard to lead the assault.
Now, if I'm going to be using TMC's as my shock troops, why even bother with the gaunts? Just max the TMC's out! They are more likely to win combats, overrun enemies, and beat them into the ground. Sure, you may need some backup here and there, but you can use 'stealers for that. And you can just use cheapo Termagants for objectives, backed by a few other monstrous creatures (Tervigons) to poop out more Termagants to get even more objectives! And you'd need some anti-tank stuff to keep the tanks from shooting, but that's why you have the incredibly cheap, and truly awesome Hive Guard and Zoanthropes for!
I hate this, to be honest. I hate realizing that the most optimal charge list is based around monstrous creatures being used as shock troops. I hate knowing that an infantry unit in cover now becomes my worst nightmare, and that any terrain I'd have to cross to attack a unit becomes a problem. It reduces my tactical choices so badly that it's not even funny. I've got over a hundred hormogaunts I was so looking forward to deploying, and now I know I most likely never will. Not only would they not be able to charge into cover, but they can't charge as far now. I hate being forced to go shooty with 'nids because their basic infantry can't be granted something that just about every basic unit in other codexes gets for free. It's BS.
Last edited by HFLep; 13-01-2010 at 01:00.
Veni, Vidi, Edi
I'm looking at two Zoanthropes and two units of two Hive Guard each. To me that's enough to at least keep the enemy armour quiet and/or stationary long enough to get to grips with it in assault. My concern is that it seems as though the best anti-infantry setup will be lots of scything talons and toxin sacs, so I won't have much for taking tanks in assault even if I catch them.Originally Posted by Shadowfax
Indeed. Barbed stranglers and Biovores are the best bet here, I feel. Thin out the horde with large blasts, then give them a volley or two of deathspitters/devourers and charge in with superior initiative. Preferably Hormagants so you're basically immune to the power klaw.
I'm trying to get my head around how to equip Shrikes. Toxin sacs seem a good buy, as well as one set of free talons. But what about the second set of arms? More free talons? Rending claws? Bone swords? For example:
250 - Five Shrikes w/ Scything talons, Bone swords, Toxin sacs
These guys will totally annihilate MEQs, killing an entire 10-man squad of power armoured troops at any toughness (even Plague Marines) on the charge. Very reliably too. But you still lose one whole Warrior to simultaneous return attacks, and you're left out in the open to get shot in your opponent's turn. Plus 50 points a model is brutal. Alternatively:
240 - Six Shrikes w/ 2xScything talons, Toxin sacs
These would be better against hordes, able to put 16 wounds on anything, but if you're charging something with a fist that sergeant/champion only needs to pass one armour save and he's still alive to give you grief. The combat drags on and you end up getting stuck.
Do you try and kill that power fist before it strikes or not? Bone swords can do that (and will murder Nob bikers) but it leaves you with too few attacks against Guard/Orks/other Nids. Help!
Oh, and can Raveners get toxin sacs?
EDIT:
Wait, what? Let's say you wanted to assault ten Chaos Marines in cover. Not sure why, but let's run with it. You have 25 Hormagants with toxin sacs and adrenal glands. I don't know the costs, but I'll assume the worst and pretend that both of these biomorphs are 2 points a model. Please correct me if I'm wrong. That makes the unit 225 points. They can still charge into cover against those ten Chaos Marines and eventually wipe them out, having lost maybe two thirds of the Hormagants. Now the Nids cost more, but I'll also assume we're not brain dead and have either sent in other support units and/or have shot up the Marines a little first. How is that 'unacceptable losses'? You still win, even assuming everything in the Marine's favour, including being in cover and having a full unit of ten intact prior to combat.
Last edited by Lord Cook; 13-01-2010 at 01:31.
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they are 2 each, and it makes it 250, not 225.
i think the point hes making is that if the hormies were to try that same thing again, theyd fail miserably.
CSMs get 18 attacks (well assume champion with power weapon) + 3 power weapon attacks. 12 hits + 2 power weapon hits, 8 wounds + 1 power weapon kill, and 7 more die, so 8 dead. then the hormies get 51 attacks, scarily enough 30 hit, 22 wound, 7 CSMs die. but the hormies still lose combat by 1, which means a failed test if not in synapse range, or another hormie dying from no retreat if they are in synapse range. also this assumes that same CSM unit didnt rapid fire you last turn, or atleast just fire at over 12", which would lead to you losing even more models.
the trick to getting your gaunts to survive is with a hive tyrant. he can do it in 2 ways. first way, which has been said, is a lash whip. the second which hasnt come up yet is paroxysm. it would make those CSMs kill half the hormies they did, which is only 4, and then you wind up killing all 10 of them since you now hit on 3+ rerolling 1s and wipe the unit entirely.
Last edited by tricker53; 13-01-2010 at 01:44.
If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.
92% of teens have moved on to rap. If you are part of the 8% who still listen to real music, copy and paste this into your signature.
Here's what I'm thinking:
Hive Tyrant: He's a useful army buff but the Wings are stupidly expensive (as if the high base cost wasn't enough) and he's somewhat fragile if you don't field him with Hive Guard. Plan to invest 300+ points to make him worthwhile.
Alpha Warrior: Basically like the old broodlord once you give him boneswords, but now he's an IC. Good value and deadly. If you're not using a special character or building your army around a Hive Tyrant, he's an excellent choice.
Zoanthropes: BS4 S10 AP1 Lance? Sure, you pretty much need a brood unless you know you won't be facing anything with a high AV. Given the speed and range it's worth podding the brood in.
Hive Guard: A unit of these seem like another no-brainer. Take 2 if you're facing mech hvy or not getting a Zoey brood.
Lictors: only decent with Mawloc and only if you can DS onto units (which I figure you can).
Ygsteelers: probably worth buying but regular outflanking stealers seem almost as good and elites is a heavy contention area. I'll probably test them before making up my mind.
Genestealers: always a good value. I'll go with bigger broods since there's an issues with cover and they are cheaper. I'm undecided if the Broodlord is good (he looks fair, but I like #s too).
Gaunts: hormagaunts look very inferior to assaulting 'stealers. Termagaunts only look worthwhile as objective holders and to allow Tervigons as troops. I plan on trying Devilgaunts backed by FnP as a shooty force.
Tervigons: they look worth fielding 1-2 as core. They are tough, scoring, can buy great army buffs, and seem decent at both shooting and CC.
Warriors: I'll try Boneswords and TS against MEQs. They are fragile and costly but it will teach those pesky SW deep strikers. (Sure, they will probably kill 1-2 warriors but the remaining 3-4 will slaughter the SW unit.)
Gargoyles: They look excellent on paper.
Shrikes: +5 points for wings. I'll do the bonesword/TS and make them CC only. With a gargoyle screen these should be effective.
Raveners: better but I believe that other options will end up working better.
Carnifex: dakkafex might be worth it but given that they haven't fixed the problems with getting to enemies (even my 115 ninjafex often has issues being useful) and they have doubled the price I'll skip getting CC fexes.
Trygon: These sound like what the 'fex should be for CC plus it comes with a ranged attack. Go figure. I'll take 1-2 maybe even make one an Alpha. Besides, the model is excellent.
Mawloc: It looks like you'll be able to build a good "trick" army around these; however, it doesn't sound like my type of army. I might field one from time to time just to freak out SM.
Biovores: Look excellent. These will be a staple of my army.
Last edited by naloth; 13-01-2010 at 01:43.
Hormagants are 6 points base? Ah that would be where I went wrong. I heard they were half the old cost, so I assumed 5.
True, but that applies to anything. Fire Dragons aren't a bad choice just because they don't have the survivability to get back in their transport and slag a second tank later. Trying to use one unit to kill one unit rarely works well anyway. With anything in 40k, success is about getting two units to kill one enemy unit, and surviving to do so again. Hormies can handle this fine, assuming you take the biomorphs.
I thought about the lash whip (although on an Alpha) but the problem is that I can't see a single whip ever getting more than two or three models in base to base. Even if the Alpha were to charge separately, the enemy unit only piles in after you've completed all of your charges. Unless I'm colossally wrong and the whip affects the entire unit of course.
Last edited by Lord Cook; 13-01-2010 at 01:54.
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hence why i suggested lash whip on the tyrant. bigger base (infact you can fit upto 11 25mm bases around one). and the 5th ed combat rules say you have to get as many models in btb as possible.
the latter suggestion i made, ie. paroxysm, is a much better solution anyway. because lash whip just means youre dying at the same time as them, when paroxysm means youre hardly dying at all.
If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.
92% of teens have moved on to rap. If you are part of the 8% who still listen to real music, copy and paste this into your signature.
Well fair enough the Tyrant's base is bigger, but I'm not sure that that's the point. If the Tyrant charges, your gaunts must also charge before the target unit piles in. When they pile in, they are hardly going to put models into btb with the Tyrant when it will reduce their initiative to do so. Your opponent will simply leave two or three models in btb with the Tyrant, and pile everyone else in to the gaunts. The only way to avoid this would be to charge the Tyrant in say turn 2 and then the gaunts in turn 3. This leads to major issues, and doesn't really work.
Paroxysm, as you say, is very nice. But I can't see everyone wanting to sink 250+ points into a Tyrant and potential retinue.
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I read the codex today, and have been thinking about the viability making an all reserve list, someone help me out with a quick question. I know lictors have to be on the table to grant +1 to reserve rolls, but I recall tyrants with the command ability just have to be alive. Can anyone tell me if I can hold two tyrants in reserve and get +2 to my rolls?
Reserve list is the way the hive mind can change the game.
Is English your second language? I've been having a bunch of trouble interpreting the meaning of many of your posts... and then there's the ant "pile" thing...
yes, tyrants in reserves will grant their +1 reserves from hive commander. 2 will grant +2 until we see an FAQ saying otherwise.
If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.
92% of teens have moved on to rap. If you are part of the 8% who still listen to real music, copy and paste this into your signature.
Is English your second language? I've been having a bunch of trouble interpreting the meaning of many of your posts... and then there's the ant "pile" thing...
No, you should however stop interpreting my post and just read them.
Have you found anything good in the new codex yet?
However ant pile should have been ant bed and that is a regional thing(ant bed) but people seem to like the tactic.
Last edited by CKO; 13-01-2010 at 03:17.
people have also branded it not a tactic, but just a no-brainer use for a drop pod that was used ever since space marines got a hold of them.
If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.
92% of teens have moved on to rap. If you are part of the 8% who still listen to real music, copy and paste this into your signature.
I have played around with it and it is much like daemons being hit or miss. If you make your rolls it can be a real pain for the enemy as you come at them from all over but if you come in piece meal then it is very easy for your units to just get picked off. It is too dependent on luck for my tastes. I will have some reserves but I cannot see depending on it for most of my army. Plus having all those points off board not doing anything always bugs me.
It is better to have a gun and not need it rather than need a gun and not have it.
Not pure reserve list, but a list that utilizes reserves as one of its main weapon to organize its swarm.
one thing that makes that difficult is that lictors need to be on the field for their benefits to take effect.
If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.
92% of teens have moved on to rap. If you are part of the 8% who still listen to real music, copy and paste this into your signature.
Thats true
But everything will come in on turn 4 on a 2+ with some accuracy if the lictors are on the field, including the mawloc which will come in auto.
Easy list to play not at all, will it work unknown, on the drawing board pure evil and game changing the list that is.
Last edited by CKO; 13-01-2010 at 03:47.
lictors have to deply via deepstrike if theyre anything like they are in the current book, which means they cant be on the field on turn 2. youll only get the benefits turn 3 onwards.
hive tyrant's hive commander takes effect from the start of the game thankfully, and until we see an FAQ that says otherwise, they can stack as well. theres your 2+ for reserves. at a minimum of 390 points down the drain.
If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.
92% of teens have moved on to rap. If you are part of the 8% who still listen to real music, copy and paste this into your signature.
Yes, young grasshoper(dont get all mad), but quicker is not always better, you must give your walkers time to get there so they can help.
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