General White Dwarf Feedback Thread

[TWB]

Lots of complaints in general about White Dwarf of late and it seems that Owen Rees is inviting feedback, well this is THE place to do it.
there are, however a couple of rules.

• While it can be negative, make sure it's not just offensive. Constructive criticism only please.
• No mobbing GW staff who might appear with "OmG's" and "Mr GWGuy this /Mr GWGuy that" it's most unseemly.

That having been said, I'd like to open proceedings with a request that all races/armies get something like an annual outing, it feels like some of them haven't been seen since their armybook/codex was released.

[Arbedark]

Main gripe, too much Space Marine stuff.

Second gripe, too much Lord of the Rings stuff.

Could possibly do with a seperate magazine for Lord of the Rings? Or just limit the articles a bit.

[Grimshawl]

It just seems to me like the overall quality of most painted figures has went down in the White Dwarf lately. Also the quality and content of most battle reports doesnt seem to be up to snuff anymore, I definitely dont get insites into the different armies involved in the matches nor find them entertaining anymore like I used to. lastly the magazine seems way too focused in constantly pushing the latest new products untill they become boring from too much repetition.
my two cents.

[tzeentchgiant]

The masterclass articles would be excellent, I'd love them to return, as I would like to see the return of more complex modelling articles, that aren't copied from internet sites word for word.

WD has a lot of potential, at the moment I feel it's going through a bad patch of issues, my only hope is that this will improve soon.

TG

[Insane Psychopath]

With WD 312 & 313 what I like about them was

312: Had some info on the UK Grand Tournament. It use to have a report in past white dwarf & then became a little bit to the side of the news, but seeing it in WD 312 I was happy as I like tournaments.

313: It shown a armies like they use to do. What I mean was, it shown Gorge Dellapina Strom Trooper Guard army. This is what I alway like to seen & have missed from past White Dwarf was very cool armies & how people went about building them or painting as thought I may not be into that race/army still some tips/idear could be taken & added to my armies.

I just find they should bring back the armies, showing really cool armies & how people went about making them as well as tournament reports say only the finials for both 40k & WFB... & of course LotR.

As long as that done I'm happy.

IP

[Keravin]

Lack of good modelling articles.

Space wasted - especially compared to similar articles in the US WD.

More army features from painters.

Actually write decent articles rather than sales pitches or space fillers. The Necron article in 314 was particularly poor.

If we have to have the Necronomicon then organise it better. I'd even prefer to have like the old Mail Order pages.

[philbrad2]

Excellent ... picking up from my 'WD to improve???' thread I stand by the following, sorry if it sounds 40K centred but most points can be transferred to other systems.

• Advanced tactica articles, generic not just army based. Perhaps some analysis of different styles of play fast attack, armoured, troop based armies. Perhaps some sort of tactica batrep to illustrate tactics rather than a page of "you could do this while positioned like this!" follow tactics through not just go 'here and here'.
  
  
• Spread of articles in each games system, not just 80% every month of the most recently released army. Sure feature and push them but give something like 50%/50% coverage to these and other armies in the system. I'm an SM players and enjoy the background to all chapters but I'm currently 'all Templared out' and TBH even though a Tyranid player they were getting a bit annoying in every 40K section for months on end. Keep some of these articles in reserve for later editions, or at least spread them over something considerably more than the 3 month release window for a new race/chapter. We all knew Black Templars were released but supporting articles for each and every unit that seemed to be released for them was just way too much.
  
  
• Advanced scenarios and batreps, not just the usual army of the moment fighting a bad/good guys - oh look the new guys won! I like the style reports that feature a special scenarios as well, not every month though. Although a batrep (even condensed) for each of the games system would be nice once on a regular basis. Batreps seem to be very few and far between these days in the pages of WD. It would be nice to have a couple every month spread across the systems. I did like the idea of two non GW staffers featuring in WD batreps nice to see armies other than those used exclusively by the Studio and painted by 'Eavy Metal included.
  
  
• Advanced (look another advanced) painting articles like the old 'Eavy Metal masterclass articles focusing on painting an individual model and the stages used. I'd like to see articles on different painting techniques other than dry brushing! Glazing, layering highlights, washing techniques. There have been a few good articles on thing like painting flesh lately in WD. Might sound boring but even good articles on basics like prepping models for painting, undercoating, base coating all important steps in the way of getting a good finish. I appreociate you'll have to cover all skill levels withn the hobby but I've found once players get the basics they like to move forward and improve/hone their skills. WD doesn't have a facility for this.
  
  
• Scenery making, basic and advanced, perhaps a month by month project, setting up your own games board, making scenery for it. Moving into more themed scenery. Get some of the excellent web based articles into print, its been monaned at that not everyone has internet access (even in this day and age) why restrict these articsl to the few (lol) with access get some into print. For instance the recent 'Return to Space Hulk- Advanced Kill team' articles on US GW's Black Gobbo had some excellent Space hulk terrain building articles as well and interesting games rules and hobby interest.
  
  
• Campaign ideas, setting up and running a campaign how about a series of batreps based around a campaign theme.
  
  
• Please, please ,please try and put something in thats more interesting and challenging for the experienced gamer/modellers as well as newbies or modellers with limited ability/skill. WD's modelling & painting articles are woefully geared at basic techniques. Again I sight the recent flesh painting article.
  
  
• Army showcases, an old favourite of mine and seldom seen these days in WD other than armies executed by GW staff, great as they may be there are some excellent modelling and painting skills out side the walls of Lenton. Get some featured. Hinit hint the WARSEERS chapter project might be just one you want to feature *plug plug*
  
  
• It's an old and tried format, but the 'tales of X gamers' I've always found interesting. Don't remember seeing an 40K one for a while. How about an article on this being rotated through the game systems. Rik Turners 'Road to the Sabbatt Worlds Campaign" articles on his Blood Ravens were quite interesting something in this vein.
  
  
• Keep up with the background article always good to see history/background in GW's game lines.
  
  
• Specialist Games - I know they are featured infrequently but I'd like to see a permanent slot in every WD for SG games. Not everything every month, but each system periodically looked at with supporting articles, not just 'This is Blood Bowl' or "This is Epic:Armageddon' include hobby/batrep/tactica/background articles. I'd like to see SG added as a 4th (or 5th) section to WD with regular content. Not covering all the pages LoTR/40K/WHFB do but enough to showcase the games. The Mordheim article in #314 was quite enjoyable even though I don't play it myself.
  

In summary, WD currently has too much GW orientated marketing in it and hobby elements especially skills seem to be rarely featured. Gaming clubs seem to be quite 'de rigeur' in WD of late, glad to see some community coverage outside of GW stores. You'll never please all of the people all of the time but getting back in touch with the gaming communitiy, even if in small steps at first would be a keystone to getting an interesting an diverse WD . Hope some of these points are taken up.

[Sgt John Keel]

Ahem. I'll speak briefly.

• 'Eavy Metal Masterclass
• More background/stories. And stories that makes something of the storyline. Not 'Hello, I'm in a jungle today, being afraid of Tyranids.' Fantasy stories at that.
• Good painting. Especially in campaigns and battle report. Find the best.
• Revise Dok Butcha to two pages, and make detailed guides to useful and pretty conversions. Not just one person showing off.
• Mike Walker.
• And drop the references to the online store and the bitz component list. I doubt you'd lose much sales over this, as there's complete catalogues in GW Stores and online, where people actually order. That is, unless you decide to re-release old components, in which case a small notifyer may be in place.

/Adrian

[my_name_is_tudor]

I think that the improvemets neccessary for WD can be summed up in one request:

(Try to) Provide for as many hobbyists as possible in each issue.

[generulpoleaxe]

every thing above.

encourage younger gamers/painters to tackle the more advanced parts of the hobby with step by step tutorials.
a lot of people will prefer to try these things out at home, not in a store where there attempts may get ridiculed.

also, you don't need as much advertising in the white dwarf if your main articles that month have said items in them.

[Hlokk]

My problems with WD.

1: Too many marines. Black Templars/Ultramarines/Whatever chapter are all well and good, but there are several other races out there that WD are just plain ignoring. When was the last time you saw an eldar or witchhunters article?

2: Overall, too much flavour of the month. I understand WD are trying to advertise, but its getting rediculous now. I am sick of seeing 3 months coverage of only 1 army before the next comes out. It happened recently with WHFB. We got loads of OK articles, then they were dropped and we got loads of WE articles, then loads of Dwarf articles, to the exclusion of almost anything else apart from adverts for batallion boxed sets.

3: Tactics articles: The recent ones have been terrible. Tactics for using unbreakable troops amounting to "We don't run" and the necron Lord, amounting to "Use resurrection orb". Lets have more depth, less pictures and tactics that actually mean something over and above "Use a meltagun for taking out tanks"

4: Conversion articles. I want to see useful conversions. IG Sargeants with Shotguns, Converted Veterans out of plastic guardsmen, Ork Kommando's/storm Boyz out of basic slugga boyz. Something useful rather than some daemon prince that is far out of the league of many of us.

5: Astronomican. I know where my nearest GW store and indi retailer is, as do most people. Get rid of this and stick it in a leaflet or something. I'm all for a community section, i just have to question the need for printing 10 pages of the same stuff over and over. Its a waste.

6: Letters pages: Can we have less "Please print my pics" letters and more useful ones discussing the hobby. As your integrated now, why not print some of the best threads from the message boards?

7: LotR. I dont even read these bits, same with a lot of people on here. Please cut the amount of pages down and give us a few more 40k/whfb pages per issue.

8: Battle reports. It strikes me that several basic mistakes are made both in army list selection and in actual tactics. it also strikes me that they seem to be staged to promote the newest army. I would ask you to invite high ranking GT players in to do some of these, so we can look at how a game between two high-level players works and what tactics they employ.

9: Painting. I'm all for these articles, indeed, the cadian head one was awe inspiring. Can you get Jacob Neilson to write some. Also, why not cover advanced techniques like blending rather than focusing on drybrushing and inking?

10: Background stuff. lets have more of this please.

11: Black Library. Can we have exerpts out of books or something, just to whet the apetite as it were?

12: Less advertising. The number of adverts in WD is massive. Add in that 90% of the articles are on the latest products, and you can see where someone would get fed up I think.

[big squig]

My problems with WD.

7: LotR. I dont even read these bits, same with a lot of people on here. Please cut the amount of pages down and give us a few more 40k/whfb pages per issue.

I don't really play WHFB and I don't read the articles for it either. Not many people play it in my area and from my point of view, few people do in general. WHFB should be dropped from WD.

See how silly that sounds?

[Hlokk]

See how silly that sounds?

No, not really, given what goes on in most of the individual WD issue feedback threads.

This thread really isnt the place for this, so lets leave it here ok?

[my_name_is_tudor]

A forum primarily focussed around 40k and fantasy is always going to come out with a general vote of 'no LotR thanks'. LotR is here to stay, I don't play it, and I used to want it gone, but now I understand that it has a rightful place there.

It won't go for a long while - so everyone will just have to put up.

[Crube]

I have to echo most of Hlokk's sentiments here.

I do understand that LotR is here to stay, so would ask that there is a general improvement in the standard of painting / articles in the same way as is required for the rest...

is there any possibility of crossover articles. I dont mean, how to use you Gondor Warriors in 40K stuff, but I'm thinking scenary / painting etc marketed more to WFB etc...

A return of Eavy Metal masterclasses would be great. Not everyone is a beginner. Some of us can take a higher level of instruction. i know how to ink and drybrush...

[Avian]

Some stuff:

Most important
When you have a good idea for an article, make sure you give the writer enough space to actually make it worth reading.


This Month's Big Thing

• If you crowd everything into three issues to the exclusion of everything else, then people who are not interested in This Month's Big Thing will end up not buying the issue. Having an emphasis on something is good, but have something else as well, ok?
• It didn't use to be as bad as this.
• In 2003 and most of 2004, basically every issue, apart from one (which was about Lizardmen) was about Chaos for one game system or another. That was one of the main reasons I stopped buying. Let other people have some attention too.
• In 40K this particularly goes for Marines. Yes, half your sales are Marines, but three quarters of the 40K articles are Marines. Enough, already!

Battle reports (you gotta have a battle report)

• Do not use scenarios that obviously favour one army. The team battle where the Dwarfs had to move across the table and started the battle pre-flanked is a prime example of how not to do it.
• Battle reports become much more interesting when one player is not instructed to let the other guy (usually playing the new army win). Prime examples of how not to do it is the Dwarf vs. Ogre one where the Ogre player kindly negated Thorgrim's one weakness (might not actually get into any useful combats), the Wood Elf vs. Orc & Goblin one ("I shall handily decline to protect my flanks at all."), the Necron vs. Marneus one ("I shall be original and show people why not taking a Ressurection Orb is a bad idea.") and the first 4th edition 40K one ("I shall stand still and let the marines clobber me.")
• It also helps if you can tell what is going on. LotR battle reports are notoriously bad at this, often having no maps, only showing close-up pictures and having vague explanations. ("One group of Easterlings moved towards the flank." Which group? Which flank?)
• Try not to make glaring rule mistakes. Having Tigurius survive a crucial round of combat because the players forgot (or "forgot") how apotecaries work just makes the whole thing feel like a sham.
• Some of my favourite reports have been non-standard ones. Two I keep coming back to are the Tyranid vs. Ultramarines / Imperial Guard from #220-something and the Orks vs. Orks vs. Orks one some issues later. One good thing about both is the way they tried out things and then made suggestions to make the scenario better.

Tactics

• Please have actual content.
• I mean it, half the article being pictures and the other half statements of the obvious does not a good article make.
• Avoid repeating things the player actually knows. ("Your Red Crested Skinks have WS3, which is more than other skinks." Gee, if I were a Red Host player I would have been really grateful to be told that.)
• If you can get writers similar to the guy who wrote the IG Split Deployment article, then go for it. Decent, well thought-out stuff that is not simply repeats of the obvious.

New rules (I personally love this stuff)

• State CLEARLY whether you intend the rules to be official or not (personally I prefer them to not be official) and you avoid about half the complaints you normally see on forums such as this.
• Try to have a minimum of play testing done. Lets not have any more swords that give Killing Blow to characters who all have Killing Blow to begin with.
• Where is the Movie Marines article?!

Background

• There is a thin line between what's inspirational and what just reads as another attempt to sell, sell, sell. Most of the BT stuff falls into the second category, while the things in the Olde Wierde series fall into the first. How can you tell the difference? By how one-dimensional it is. If the article portrays a conflict where one side is doing all the kicking and the other side is providing all the butts, it often ends up reading rather lame.
• Try to have something original and involving not just this months big thing.

Painting and terrain

• The US team seems to be very competent at terrain, though their colours are usually garish (The grey is blue, the black is purple. Are they colour blind, perhaps?). Get more stuff from them.
• Try to have some variety. Usually it's either no-talent or extreme-pro.
• When a conversion article features the author buying a complete model to get the end of a telescope (Bugman series), I personally feel insulted.

Mini-series

• The Bugman series suffered from requiring too specific models and having badly written rules. I have not heard of anyone actually trying this out, perhaps because they did not have a dwarven river boat (can't remember that being mentioned in the background either ). More accessible to the average gamer, please.
• The second Tale of Four gamers suffered from not giving the gamers enough space (only a single page each) and then illustrating what happens when you bring gamers with wildly differing approaches to the hobby together in a competitive enviroment (the tournament player wins and I feel embarassed reading the last two installments).
• Paul Sawyer's Tale of One Gamer was much better, because it had enough space and featured an actually interesting gamer (ie. one who paints well, likes to convert models and is not a power gamer).

Will post more when I think of it...

EDIT: A little more on battle reports

[Inquisitor Samos]

Well, you certainly nailed that on the head, Avian...... numerous good whacks, too!

Avian's last post reads pretty much like a laundry-list of all the reasons why I quit subscribing to White Dwarf, and why I've gotten to the point now that I only "cherry-pick" the issues to purchase that have something in 'em that I really want to keep, and even those are getting more infrequent.


I probably ought to point out clearly at this point that I'm in the US, so it's the US version of White Dwarf that I read rather than the UK version. (So, yes, I do get to see the GW-US team's terrain efforts regularly, and I did get to see the "Movie Marines" article!) But in my opinion very nearly all of Avian's suggestions/gripes are completely applicable to the US White Dwarf as well.

[my_name_is_tudor]

Ditto Avian on everything, particularly the split deployment article, which is probably one of my all time favourite WD articles ever - and I've never even played with IG

[William_De_Rule]

Avian makes some good points. For myself:

Above all, White Dwarf should be a good read and not just a 'glossy'. The Mike Walker articles are a good example of what I'm thinking of; personal opinion, humour, a fresh perspective.

Tactics articles should go beyond the obvious, have depth, demonstrate critical thought and be well illustrated with diagrams (a picture's worth 1K words etc).

'Fluff' pieces are good; short stories, in character 'reports', imperial vid-logs and xeno autopsies for 40K, things like Old Weird's Incunabula, timelines and in character diaries for fantasy. However not all fluff should be written from an imperial (either Empire or Imperium) perspective!

Chapter approved/Warhammer Chronicles are a great way to add material to tghe game systems, but must be original - the recent rehashed creature feature was most disappointing, it was actually not as good as the original despite containing some of the same material. Creature Feature is, however, a good example of how CA/WC need not introduce entire army lists, supplementary material can take many and varied forms.

Battle reports, particularly the bigger 40K and Fantasy ones, should be enjoyable to read, they should present the game as a story. When done well, 1st or 3rd person character narratives are particularly good. Characters and squads should be named, there should be some colour text setting the scene and giving a reason for the battle to take place. Many earlier issues of WD had this but it seems to be missing of late (although the dwarves/ogres report had it). Army selection & tactics should be discussed. There should be clear maps.

Every so often there should be a non-standard battle report. The Gathering of Might and its sequels, Korsk II, Return to Glazer's Creek, 4-way Carnage, Kinstrife on somewhere alliterative (eldar/dark eldar), that one where a Guard VS Necrons stand-up fight was played out simultaneously with an Ordo Xenos/Necrons kill-team game and the BFG report presented as a ships' log are all memorable for having character, telling a story and being fun to read.

Doc Butcher should get a two-page spread, even if one page was the article and the other page was other conversions for inspiration. What is important with conversion articles is that most gamers don't have a staff discount! A conversion where you buy a model to get the head are no use to me; creative use of the plastic sprues (for example) is. Conversion articles should generally show affordable techniques.

I have no problem with LotR. It was initially something of a merchandising tye-in but is developing into a very nice miniatures line. Given this I am quite happy for the magazine to be divided into three sections as long as they are roughly the same size. The mini editorials at the begining of each section are quite good too.

The Uk edition of WD should not contain 2.5 pages of retail listings for foreign countries and the new releases prices in 5 different currencies! The magazine should be localised. Surely it would be earsy enough to bundle the appropriate storefinder listings together with a pricing flyer as seperate leaflets with WD in regions that require them.

I realise that WD has to promote the new releases, but I would prefer fewer technicolour spreads in the new releases section and a bigger components section instead. Time was you could see the new release at the front of the mag and then find all of its components at the back, these days we have to wait for them to appear on the online store, which is hardly progress.

Sorry that was such a stream of conciousness, but that's my tuppence worth (well a bit more than tuppence, admittedly ).

[BlazeXI]

Tataly agree with Avian.
Two remarks:
1) Painting. Most of us cannot and will not achieve painting standard of Mike McVey, George De La Pina, Razza or Miss Lamb. Tutorials of such painters are goog from time to time. The horrible LotR-style painting tutorials for 10 year olds ( like painting Slayers) should be banned. I'm asking for more intermediate and advanced tutorials (like Painting faces few months ago).

2) a Tale of 4 gamers was the first thing I would read in a WD. The FIrst one was better for reasons mentioned by Avian.
I would like to see next one for WH40k, as I am a Fantasy player it would attract me back to 40K maybe. Lets hope there will not be 3 Marine players and a chaos one. And please not let Mister Christian Byrne do another Chaos Space Marine Army nor any Marine Army in that matter. Though his Iron Warriors articles have been top class. After all the Tales of 4 gamers were supossed to persuade players to do new armies .