Dwarf Army List Development

[N0th1ng c4n b34t 3lv3s]

I just read through the PDF & damn, I love what you've done with the list!

So here's some suggestions on changes you could make (mostly just pts cost so nothing special):

Ranged Weapon Runes:
Reduce Master Rune of Makaisson to 30pts.
Reduce Rune of Accuracy to 15pts, else it will end up like the Skryre Warlock Optics.
Reduce Rune of Fire to 5pts, that's the cost for the melee rune so why increase its cost for ranged?

Unit Upgrades:
Wards of Grimnir are just worth 2pts/model IMO.
Runes of Flight are okay with 1pt/model.
Runes of Striking can cost 1pt/model but won't make any big difference if it's 2pts/model.
Runes of Swiftness should be balanced with 1pt/model, Dwarfs have so low initiative anyway.

Let Warrior units be able to take Runic Standards worth up to 25pts for every Runesmith & Runelord in your force.

Give Quarrellers Heavy armour as an option.

Give Runes of Stone as mandatory for the Ironbreakers... they should be the toughest infantry out there in Warhammer!:P

Let Doomseekers have Wards of Grimnir for free.

A quick question about Doomseekers: Are they inside the unit or a single model unit on its own?

And lastly... Would be wonderful with Scythed propellers for Gyros (maybe D3 impact hits or something), just imagine the sight of it

Good Luck!!!

[Haravikk]

Runes of Flight are okay with 1pt/model.

Well, my rational for the double cost is that units that take this aren't really meant to have throwing axes, so you can have the extra option if you like, but it'll cost extra compared to the option for Rangers. The alternative I suppose could be a fixed price for the whole unit (since only the front rank use the effect really anyway), that is somewhere in the middle, so a little more expensive but not too much more.

Give Runes of Stone as mandatory for the Ironbreakers... they should be the toughest infantry out there in Warhammer!:P

Well, bear in mind they now ignore armour piercing due to the improvement to Gromril armour, and the Solid Wall of Gromril rules essentially makes them immune to being run-down except if forced off a table-edge or into impassible terrain, I think that makes them pretty damn solid, plus the option for the Halberds, I think that paying for the runes of stone makes sense. You can make them a Death Star type unit if you like with the list as-is, but it'll cost you 7pts a model, but gives you a fair bit of killing potential coupled with high survivability compared even to Chaos Warriors, just with reduced movement.

Let Doomseekers have Wards of Grimnir for free.

A quick question about Doomseekers: Are they inside the unit or a single model unit on its own?

Well, I sort of made them more along the lines of an assassin or fanatic type model; they hide in the unit then spring forward, potentially preventing an enemy charge. Wards of Grimnir might be a good shout though. I've seen various posts pushing for all Slayers as skirmishers, but while not completely accurate fluff-wise I really like Slayers as a ranked unit, they are pretty damned powerful when used properly, and the Doomseeker adds a little extra to that, for a price.
Once he's out of the unit though he just carves his merry way around the battlefield, mostly out of control

Note; when I say he hides in the unit, it's a more a case that you can't immediately tell the difference from a distance, if you're close enough to see the wild eyes, frothing mouth, and bulging forehead vein, then you're probably in the process of being dismembered already

And lastly... Would be wonderful with Scythed propellers for Gyros (maybe D3 impact hits or something), just imagine the sight of it

That's sort of what I was going for with the bomb option, combining two interesting ideas (your scythed propellers with yabbadabba's mention of bombs); in this incarnation the impact hits are greater than the Gyrocopter's profile would normally allow, but one use only.


For the comments I didn't quote, I'll take those into account definitely!

[N0th1ng c4n b34t 3lv3s]

Well, bear in mind they now ignore armour piercing due to the improvement to Gromril armour, and the Solid Wall of Gromril rules essentially makes them immune to being run-down except if forced off a table-edge or into impassible terrain, I think that makes them pretty damn solid, plus the option for the Halberds, I think that paying for the runes of stone makes sense.

Oh, forgot about that they ignore armour piercing, I'm just a little stubborn on this question about Rune of Stone on the Ironbreakers. By the way, will you be able to use hand weapon+shield while letting the 2nd rank still fight using dwarven halberds?

Once he's out of the unit though he just carves his merry way around the battlefield, mostly out of control

Do you mean like a fanatic?

That's sort of what I was going for with the bomb option, combining two interesting ideas (your scythed propellers with yabbadabba's mention of bombs); in this incarnation the impact hits are greater than the Gyrocopter's profile would normally allow, but one use only.

Ye go for bombs, Scythed propellers would just me more of a bloody mess (I like it, Khaine...)

[Haravikk]

By the way, will you be able to use hand weapon+shield while letting the 2nd rank still fight using dwarven halberds?

I'm not sure you can currently do that with units that have spears, hand-weapons, and shields? I think you choose hand-weapons and shield or spears for all models. I'd say the same is true here, however they benefit from the Dwarf Shield entry which allows them to use the shield to some effect even with a two-handed weapon. So using Dwarf Halberds they'd have a 3+ Armour Save.

Do you mean like a fanatic?

That was the intention, as otherwise you just have another Slayer character with a weird attack scheme, I think it makes sense that he's just so crazed he charges around fighting any and every enemy in his path with wild abandon once loose from his fellow Slayers. It's up to you the player to try and direct him against something worthwhile, or use him to bolster your slayers, as I can think of worse things than a 60 point character who can hit an entire unit of knights that was trying to charge your Slayer's in the flank or rear before they even know what's happening!

[N0th1ng c4n b34t 3lv3s]

You could give Doomseekers a special rule that they must move towards the closest enemy unit or something similar to Frenzy.

[Haravikk]

You could give Doomseekers a special rule that they must move towards the closest enemy unit or something similar to Frenzy.

That's pretty much the way I've currently worded the rule, or do you mean to have them as a separate unit with such a rule, rather than being placed within a unit of Slayers?

[Dorack]

I actually incorporated that idea into the Unyielding rule as it appears in the PDF, as a 12" area effect around Thanes & Lords.

Glad to have contributed to this effort!

[Haravikk]

Glad to have contributed to this effort!

I've got a few things in there from you, some more directly than others! I haven't noted each specific contribution at the moment, but I might note names beside items in the changes list at some point.

Am working on incorporating some of the feedback into a second version of the PDF and one issue has cropped up; Longbeards. With Hammerers now having shield included in their cost, Longbeards are overpriced in a sense, as giving them great weapons and shields as well ramps them up to 14 points each.

There are a few options though:
Give them shields too (probably easiest, especially as they have their own entry in the current PDF).
Lower their cost to 10 points each (not sure on this, as +1 strength and +1 WS doesn't seem like a 2 point upgrade for the 8 point warriors).
Raise Hammerer's cost to 13 points.

I'm leaning towards the first option of just giving them shields as basic equipment, as it leaves them as +1 point over Hammerers when given the same equipment, which I think is fair as immune to panic + old grumblers is arguably better than stubborn + potentially immune to fear and terror (depending on exact circumstances).


Also, regarding special characters I'm still thinking of what I want. I think a slayer is a definite must, and possibly an engineer to fill out different army types. Beyond that, I think it'd be interesting to see King Alrik back for a cheaper special lord character. But, in addition to this a few armies have been getting unit-specific special characters recently, which replace a unit champion, which is an interesting possibility. The three main candidates are a Hammerer hero, Ironbreaker hero, and Miner hero; a Miner hero especially would make a great addition.
I haven't given much thought as to what any of them would be like, probably nothing too outlandish though.

[N0th1ng c4n b34t 3lv3s]

Give them shields too, why not give warriors shields also? Maybe they'll get underpriced I dont know but they just got a 6'' move...

[Haravikk]

Hmm, hadn't thought about warriors, I ran a lot of combat comparisons to directly compare how current Dwarf warriors compare to different combat units from other armies, with and without shields for the Dwarfs. They do actually perform fairly poor in a straight up combat so shields might actually be a reasonable addition for basic equipment.

It's hard to compare using every factor such as movement, and how they might be used in tandem with other units. I'll add it in for the next version of the list though, and try to get a load of games in at the weekend to see how well the whole thing plays, I'll post v2 later today or tomorrow so others can give it a go if they want.


What are people's thoughts on Rangers? I'm thinking the Forester rule ought to make them properly usable as scouts again, as you can actually put them in a forest to hide them without spending the next 3 or 4 turns trying to get them back out again
I've added a note that means Quarrellers upgraded to rangers can have a runic unit armour upgrade (they're normally unable to), so you can make them a bit more survivable if you want to use them really close to the enemy, and will give people the mixed combat/shooting unit that I've seen talked about here and there, but it'll be expensive if that's all you want them for. Just wondering if any further tweaks are needed or they seem okay now?

[Haravikk]

Okay! Here's v2, with mostly small changes to the list itself, and a load of (probably really unbalanced) special characters! One lesson that is already learned is that I suck at naming Dwarfs so all the new characters have fairly stupid names, so I'm open to suggestions!

[N0th1ng c4n b34t 3lv3s]

What about Mountain Rangers? Saw the rules for them in a White Dwarf before & I fell in love with them directly.:P Maybe giving 1 Thunderer unit the ability to be upgraded for mountain rangers (scouts, skirmish, maybe count rocky pieces of diff terrain as open for movment purposes, why not Ethereal movement with impassable rocks! (bad english I know)) Or as a special / rare slot (Blundebuss=flame template shot if rare? 5-10 in each unit but all touched by the template are ht on 4+ even if they're fully covered, str3 AP)

[Haravikk]

Whoops, I made a few mistakes when compiling the brief copy of the PDF (stripped out any fluff I copied in from the book)! Dwarf Warriors should be listed as having Dwarf Shields as basic equipment.

Not a big change, otherwise it's just a few tweaks to the white space and stuff where I've fudged a page or column break.

Mountain rangers seem interesting, but I think they would perhaps need to be within the Rangers category? So you could have one unit of Rangers, either Foresters (upgrade from Warriors, Longbeards, or Quarrellers), or Mountaineers (upgrade from Thunderers)? I'm unsure about making them completely able to pass over rocky terrain, as even if you're trained to climb more easily then it's not a quick thing to do, perhaps just allow them to march but they'll still suffer the movement penalty? So they essentially make a normal move of 3" through such terrain, but with the restricted manoeuvrability of marching? For impassible terrain, perhaps a unit that starts in contact with an impassible terrain feature such as a cliff etc. can spend the entire turn climbing it. My main concern is that it could allow the unit to get somewhere that no enemy unit can, making them immune to close combat, which wouldn't be very balanced against a Khornate army!

[Haravikk]

Here's v3!

Major changes include various tweaks to the special characters, plus a couple more added from among past characters.

Also, Rangers now have three explicit types:

Forest Rangers
Foresters, Light Armour + Great Weapon, equipment choices include Heavy Armour, Shields, and Crossbows or Throwing Axes.

Mountain Rangers
Mountaineers, Light Armour + Blunderbuss.

Mountaineers - this rule allows the unit to march through difficult rocky terrain (still suffer penalty to move though), ignore obstacles when moving, and can make a special move to climb impassible rocky terrain that both players agree counts as climbable.

Blunderbuss - 12", 2x S3 shots, move and fire. At half range this weapon ignores ordinary (non magical) to-hit penalties, and will fire with S4 if the unit didn't move.

Longbeard Rangers
Foresters, Mountaineers, Heavy Armour + Shield + Great Weapon. Options allow a choice between Blunderbusses, Crossbows, or Throwing Axes.


Idea being that Forest Rangers are cheap and flexible, Mountain Rangers are best as a defensive scout (to set up possible ambushes) as they can deal a ton of damage though not as consistently as Thunderers, and Longbeard Rangers are just all round elite Dwarf scouts, but they get expensive fast if you equip them with Crossbows or Blunderbusses.

[Haravikk]

Bonus update! I cobbled together a version of the Slayer Army List as a bonus list that largely references the main Dwarf army list, but adds some bonus units (Long Drong's Slayer Pirates, Brotherhood of Grimnir, and Malakai Makaisson's Goblin-Hewer) that don't really fit the main list very well. I've also added some Dogs of War directives for using a few Dwarf units in other armies.

I've also tweaked some other parts, and added army list references. There is also a bonus scenario, which I've play tested a few times now using this list, and it makes for some very fun games! So far in testing I've found the list pretty fun to play and not especially unbalanced, though I haven't attempted yet to exploit it. Runic unit upgrades are quite fun, though I've only used one or two so far, mainly to create an Ironbreakers Death Star, which is very tough to kill, but when you're investing 19 points per model (plus command and any magic standard) into a rank and file unit you expect something decent! The Rangers changes are also pretty fun, as it's possible to field a unit for as little as 8 points per model, but they will only have light armour and great weapons, but they can still be a real thorn in an enemy's side all the same. Mountain Rangers are fairly vicious, but only truly deadly at half range where they can cut a unit in two if given the chance, otherwise even with multiple shots their Strength 3 attacks are largely shrugged off except by horde armies that don't tend to care much.

So uhm, yeah, on the whole I'm fairly pleased with the balance of the list. I'm still undecided on whether to remove the runic unit upgrades in favour of some more specific options for some units (Wards of Grimnir for slayers, Runes of Stone for Ironbreakers etc.), though the added choice of a full list makes it possible to create some interesting units to fit into highly varied tactics. Ultimately close combat still amounts to largely hammer and anvil, but it's now a little easier to make it work in favour of just going heavy on the gun-line.

I'm curious to know if anyone else has tried this sample list? I'm currently a bit limited in my available opponents so if others would like to play test as well it'd be helpful! I'm planning to send the list into Games Workshop once I'm happy with it (or at least run of stuff to meddle with).

[edit] Helps if I actually attach the file!

[Haravikk]

I'm sorry to bump this without good reason, but I was hoping for some feedback. I'm interested to know if anyone else has tried the rules in a game? I'm still playing the odd game here and there, but it's hard to make sure everything is tested and balanced as I have a particular play style and might not be covering everything properly, though I'm trying to.

The effectiveness of gun-lines seems largely unchanged, except that engineers can bolster the fire of ranged units a little more noticeably if they take ranged weapon runes, though it's an expensive thing to do. I'm loving how the new rangers entries play, as I can actually take them in most games and see them actually benefiting me a lot more frequently, as for one they can be fielded more cheaply, and its now possible to deploy them in a forest again without spending whole turns wading back out.

Slayer Oath Breakers are awesome, and I think at about the right points value. They lack the flexibility in weapons by being forced to use two hand weapons (no great weapon option as with regular slayers), they also lack the more elite upgrade to giant slayers. However the skirmish rule on a movement 3 unit is easily the best thing ever, I think I just don't appreciate it as much when skirmishers are movement 5 or 6, but the extra manoeuvrability is invaluable! They're just excellent at stopping enemy units in their tracks.

I've also been favouring my Ironbreaker Death Star; halberds, runes of stone, plus their new rule and they really do take a ton of punishment. I'm uncertain if their wall of gromril rule should increase them to 14 points/each basic though, any thoughts? IMO 14 is too much, but then 13 feels a little low, heh. They'll quite happily stand toe-to-toe with a big block of Chaos Warriors for a turn or two, but they can get whittled down fairly steadily by elite combat troops so they still tend to lose without help or hero (I usually throw in the latter though).

I'm actually enjoying the Golem rules too, though I'm looking for ways to simplify them a bit more without crippling them. They are excellent at countering other half-giants, and really pack a punch, but need to be used well or the points are better spent elsewhere as they're not cheap!

[GuyLeCheval]

I don't know if this has already been said but: all dwarfs are immune to fear.

Should work.

[Haravikk]

I don't know if this has already been said but: all dwarfs are immune to fear.

I think that'd be a bit too much, as you could argue blanket immunity to fear for a lot of armies, but doesn't mean it'd be fun to play. It certainly wouldn't be much fun for armies with valid tactics involving fear to suddenly have such units lose their effect, at least with immunity to outnumbering Fear can still have an affect on an enemy's ability to fight effectively in combats. Besides which, fleeing isn't necessarily a unit soiling themselves and bolting, it can also represent a unit falling back of its own volition, but to do so they run the risk of being run down while they're vulnerable so you don't want it to happen, but they can't help wanting to move away in a really bad situation!

The current unyielding rule (Dwarf units within 12" of a Thane or Lord never count as outnumbered) has been working really well in play-testing. My main opponent is a Wood Elf player so there's usually a lot of Dryads involved that no longer cause expensive units to be wiped out instantly, which is nice. But it hasn't seemed unbalanced in the other direction either as the Thanes/Lords still need to be positioned sensibly as with a battle standard bearer or general, and I've still had a few crappy rounds of combat due to fear hitting on 6's only. Plus Fear can still run amok if it gets into gun-line units who aren't near enough to benefit from the rule.

One thing I have been considering though is having the immunity to outnumbering only work for units with at least unit strength 5 or half unit strength remaining or something similar, so that crippled units will still eventually auto-break from fear causing enemies, as there have been some cases where a unit is ground down to only a few Dwarfs but fights on anyway; the Dwarfs are obstinate, but it may be a tad much. This particular case had a Dwarf warrior ending up one-on-one with a dragon, impressive but perhaps a bit unusual! One alternative is to drop the range to 8" instead of 12", to make it even more reliant on proper placement of thanes and lords.

[N0th1ng c4n b34t 3lv3s]

I LOVE what you've done with the simple original list! (the GW one)

Here's some opinions I got about it though

1) Give Engineers the ability to be equipped with blunderbusses.
2) Give Slayer characters the ability to take Slayer names in addition to runic items.
3)Drop the pts cost on the crossbows and blunderbusses for Longbeard Rangers by 2pts.
4) MAYBE you could give 1 miner unit the ability to be upgraded to longbeard miners?
5) Slayer axes for Oath Breakers.

If you got any ideas on how you could change how the Anvil of Doom works I'd like to hear it (thinking about it myself).

Keep working on the list, you're doing it great.

[Haravikk]

1) Give Engineers the ability to be equipped with blunderbusses.

Done.

2) Give Slayer characters the ability to take Slayer names in addition to runic items.

Is there some reference for these, or do you have a proposal for them? I think weapon runes already give them a pretty good mix, as do their existing rules if you don't want to spend the extra points for a good runic axe. My main concern is that runic unit upgrades already adds an extra item list, another one, even with limited use starts getting more complicated?

3)Drop the pts cost on the crossbows and blunderbusses for Longbeard Rangers by 2pts.

I'm unsure about this, I haven't been able to find any units that would be comparable, as you're creating scouts with elite combat stats and a (good) shooting option, so it's hard to gauge how much it should cost. I mean for 21 points each you can get scouts that can happily hold their own against most other combat units, deal out vicious firepower in the shooting phases or when charged, and can move with few restrictions (though still at Movement 3), so it seems to me a case of getting what you pay for. If anything, the only convention I can find is that more expensive basic units have more expensive upgrades, so I think it's reasonable to keep them as-is as longbeard rangers aren't quite at the price-point of heavy cavalry and such.

4) MAYBE you could give 1 miner unit the ability to be upgraded to longbeard miners?

I'm unsure, I always figured longbeards are more the fighting and grumbling type than ones to keep on working the mines. It does occur to me however than one idea I was originally considering was a type for miner heroes or lords, who could add more miner choices I suppose. Would have to consider aiming for an upgradable hero type then, where you pick a basic dwarf character and upgrade to miner, ranger, or thane/lord perhaps? Dunno, requires some pondering!

5) Slayer axes for Oath Breakers.

I originally had these on them, but they seem like they'd travel even lighter than regular slayers, so switching to great weapons doesn't make much sense, their main role is the added manoeuvrability which means that they can easily stop almost any unit. They do still get their auto-adjusting strength though. Also the additional raw damage of being able to choose great weapons (useful against T3 or T4 enemies) makes them quite killy on their own, which isn't the idea; Dwarf combat should still ultimately fall down to multiple units supporting each other, even the really expensive fully equipped units shouldn't be winning combats easily except against notably weaker enemies, or with the aid of a character. Only the Golems really can deal much damage on their own, but they're expensive, rare, and fare badly in prolonged combats.