Dwarf Revision - A quick fix for the most balanced book

[anarchistica]

This is a post from a topic on Bugman's Brewery. The thread asked people to mention 5 changes they would want to make to the Dwarf list. After 50 posts i added up the amount of times certain things were mentioned and came up with some solutions for these problems, or used solutions suggested in the thread. I know the Dwarf book is the most balanced book out there, but it was one of the first so some "errors" crept in because the standard was not set yet, think of the randomising of shots fired at the Anvil of Doom. The Runelord, Miners and Rangers thus suffered from "codex creep", which you cannot prevent in some cases. Aside from that there were some poorly thought out things, like the flat bonus of 2 Dispel Dice and the lack of real use for some units. Engineers and Organ Guns were both less useful than their Empire counterparts. Longbeards could not compare to Ironbreakers, Hammerers and even normal Warriors. Finally, over time it's showed that playing "static" is the only thing that works for them. Giving them a weaker version of "fleet of foot" and making them alot harder to break through Fear should alow the player to play more dynamically.

The post:

It's been pretty consistent, with the number of OOT suggestions being limited to a handful. Some stats. The number obviously represents the amount of people mentioning a problem related to the subject.

Units

Runelord (19) - Pretty much everyone wants him to give 2 Dispel Dice. One person also wanted crossbows and throwing axes for him and his little brother, which is silly of course.
Longbeards (15) - Making them Immune to Fear and sometimes Terror or just Immune to Psychology was most popular. Also, having them as an upgrade for Dwarf Warriors was mentioned, and allowing them special movement rules.
Slayers, including characters (15) - Alot of people want them to Skirmish and/or have some save. Characters should get the Slayer Skills and Runic Talismans according to a couple of posters.
Engineer (12) - Everything suggested for him related to him not helping warmachines out enough. Someone even suggested making him a 20 points upgrade for them.
Organ gun (11) - Range and/or number of hits are found lacking.
Dwarf Cannon (9) - The Wounds issue. Most suggested D3+1, a couple even D6. A points reduction was suggested too.
Rangers (8 ) - Probably because of the Mountain Rangers, people want these to Skirmish.
Gyrocopter (3), Miners (1) and King Alrik (1) were mentioned, but most people seem to think they're fine.

Other

Movement (15) - People either want them to be faster through triple/quick marching or giving them some manouvering benefit.
Magic (10) - Aside from the Runelord thing, this was brought up mostly because of the protection issue. Some wanted to improve the Anvil and make Runesmiths weak Wizards.
Outnumbering (10-13) - Especially Fear-Causing units seem to be what Dwarf players have problems with. Suggestions ranged from ignoring Outnumbering to giving them US2.
Runes (7) - Mostly the availability of Runic Standards seems problematic.

Also a number of other things related to the general army were brought up, like suggestions to make all of them +1In, making rules for Clans or character upgrades (Miner/Ranger/Engineer), make nearly everthing cheaper, adding Mountain Rangers to the list and allowing heavy armour for everyone aside from Slayers.

The handful of Out Of Touch suggestions were making all Dwarfs Unbreakable, allowing 2 BSB's, making the enemy Crumble like Undead and making Dwarf Handguns always +1 to hit. :lol:

The balance

Not mentioned at all were Dwarf Lords, Thanes, Dwarf Crossbows, Bolt Throwers and Stone Throwers. These apparently don't need any tweaks.

Virtually no one had complaints about Runesmiths, Flame Cannons, Iron Breakers, Hammerers, Thunderers, Warriors and Gyrocopters. They're likely best left alone.

Units with a single flaw were Runelords, Rangers, Miners, Dwarf Cannons, Longbeards and Organ Guns. They could do with a single change.

Troublesome are Slayers of any kind and Engineers. There's no real agreement on what would help.

Aside from these units there are the outnumbering, magic protection , runic standard availability and movement issues. I think these could be helped alot with just a simple change.

Suggested tweaks

Looking at this topic and drawing from experience, i've come up with a small list with suggested tweaks which improve the list a bit, mostly the weaker elements. I doubt many people would not let you use at least some of them if you asked them (nicely and before the battle starts ).

The ones at the top seem the most simple andreasonable. Note that all of this is of course in addition to any existing rules (except where noted).

1. Dwarf Runelords add 2 dice to the Dispel pool.
2. Longbeards are Immune to Fear. In accordance with the rulebook, this means they're still subject to Terror but threat it as Fear instead.
3. Instead of the normal amount of Power and Dispel dice, the Dwarf army gets 1 Power Die and 2 Dispel Dice per 1000 points.
4. If there are no enemy units within 8", a Dwarf unit can choose to perform a "Quick March". This follows all the rules for marching and allows the unit to move an additional d3". A character that performs a Quick March can't do anything during the Shooting Phase (i.e. can't throw a weapon with Rune of Flight, can't fire a missile weapon, etc).
5. Dwarf Rangers are Skirmishers.
6. Dwarf Miners can use their Underground Advance rule or the It Came From Below rule from the Tomb Kings army book.
7. As long as any unit with the Slayer special rule is not in close combat, he will recieve a 6+ Ward Save.
8. A Bolt Thrower, Cannon or Stone Thrower joined by a Dwarf Engineer can re-roll dice used do determine multiple Wounds and gets a bonus of +1 on the dice rolled on the machine's Misfire Chart.
9. An enemy unit only counts as Outnumbering a Dwarf unit if it outnumbers by 2:1.
10. An Organ Gun rolls 2 Artillery Dice instead of 1 to determine the amount of hits caused.

This fixes the major problems:

• Runelords give 2 DD, bringing them in line with Archlectors and High Priests of Ulric.
• Longbeards are Immune to Fear, making them better especially against Undead, which Dwarfs tend to have alot of prolems with.
• Dwarfs get more Dispel Dice in battles of 3000 points and less in battles below 2000 points.
• Dwarves are faster if they don't shoot, moving 7-9" per turn.
• Rangers are Skirmishers, like their cousins from the mountains and every other Scouting unit.
• Miners can Come From Below, bringing them in line with TK diggers and Eshin Skaven.
• Slayers can survive 1 in 6 Wounds suffered outside of combat, making them more resilient against missiles and magic, which is fluffy but not overpowering.
• The Engineer finally is useful, as he makes it impossible for a Cannon or Stone Thrower to destroy itself by rolling a 1 on the Misfire Chart. Also, the re-rolling on the dice for Wounds fixes the Cannon problem, as Stone Thrower already roll a D6 and is used mainly against single-Wound units and the Bolt Thrower usually is for the S7 against chariots and Flaming Attacks against Trolls.
• The Outnumbering bonus i had my doubts about, but this should work. Really big units can still outnumber them and elite units can be outnumbered too. Combined with Longbeards being Immune to Fear, it vastly improves your chances against Undead.
• Organ Guns rolling 2 instead of 1 Artillery Dice to determine amount of hits not only makes them more deadly, but also reduces the chances of rolling just 2-4 hits. The fact that the chance to Misfire is doubled balances it out. I considered making it use the Hellblaster Misfire Chart, but decided against it.

Perhaps you could suggest to allow 0-1 Dwarf Warrior unit to have a Runic Standard with a value of up to 25 points, but i think they're good enough already.

Comments anyone?

[flain]

The ones at the top seem the most simple andreasonable. Note that all of this is of course in addition to any existing rules (except where noted).
Dwarf Runelords add 2 dice to the Dispel pool.
Longbeards are Immune to Fear. In accordance with the rulebook, this means they're still subject to Terror but threat it as Fear instead.
Instead of the normal The Dwarf army gets 1 additional die Power Die and 2 Dispel Dice per 1000 points.
During the Shooting phase, instead of firing a missile weapon, a Dwarf unit can move D3". This movement is subject to the normal rules for movement, so you cannot move to within 1" of an enemy and penalties for difficult terrain and still apply, etc.
Dwarf Rangers are Skirmishers.
Dwarf Miners can use their Underground Advance rule or the It Came From Below rule from the Tomb Kings army book.
As long as any unit with the Slayer special rule is not in close combat, he will recieve a 6+ Ward Save.
A Bolt Thrower, Cannon or Stone Thrower joined by a Dwarf Engineer can re-roll dice used do determine multiple Wounds and gets a bonus of +1 on the dice rolled on the machine's Misfire Chart.
An enemy unit only counts as Outnumbering a Dwarf unit if it outnumbers by 2:1.
An Organ Gun rolls 2 Artillery Dice instead of 1 to determine the amount of hits caused.

I like most of the rule changes proposed, but I think that the CFB rule for miners can be too nasty. With Skaven and TK the units that have them will never ignore ranks, while miners do. They do need something, but I do not know if this is the best solution. A unit with S5, charging and negating ranks... seems too painful for me. Maybe give them the rule that they never negate ranks, but that they can claim rank bonus. Then they are still very painful, but not wiping every unit they charge the first turn.
And with the engineer: the problem with him is more the points cost. You can get an additional bolt thrower for him, almost a stone thrower and 3/4 of a cannon.

And I do have my doubt of the fleet of foot... Dwarves are slow and should stay that way. Other armies should get slower when wearing the heavier armours as in the previous edition (knight with movement 6 ). Then you would hear less Dwarfs complain about movement. And it would mean that there is more time to shoot, making the organ gun have more impact on knights.

[Griefbringer]

[*]During the Shooting phase, instead of firing a missile weapon, a Dwarf unit can move D3". This movement is subject to the normal rules for movement, so you cannot move to within 1" of an enemy and penalties for difficult terrain and still apply, etc.

Ahem - Dwarves are supposed to be slow - if you want something faster, just go out and play pansy elves. And movement is supposed to take place in the movement phase - this is not 40K. If you really want to make Dwarves as fast as humans, then just give them M4.

[anarchistica]

I like most of the rule changes proposed, but I think that the CFB rule for miners can be too nasty. With Skaven and TK the units that have them will never ignore ranks, while miners do. They do need something, but I do not know if this is the best solution. A unit with S5, charging and negating ranks... seems too painful for me. Maybe give them the rule that they never negate ranks, but that they can claim rank bonus. Then they are still very painful, but not wiping every unit they charge the first turn.

Well, remember that you have to put down a marker so the enemy could just make sure that the marker doesn't face their flank or simply place an enemy on it so the Miners will charge that unit in the front once they emerge.

And i don't think it'd be a bad thing to have Dwarfs that are actually capable of flanking!

And with the engineer: the problem with him is more the points cost. You can get an additional bolt thrower for him, almost a stone thrower and 3/4 of a cannon.

True, but put some runes on them and you will likely want to keep them alive. Re-rolling multiple Wounds dice and +1 on the misfire chart are a big bonus. The machines can't blow up and are far more likely to be usable in every turn.

And I do have my doubt of the fleet of foot... Dwarves are slow and should stay that way. Other armies should get slower when wearing the heavier armours as in the previous edition (knight with movement 6 ). Then you would hear less Dwarfs complain about movement. And it would mean that there is more time to shoot, making the organ gun have more impact on knights.

I would prefer to have movement penalties similar to those in 5th, or better, a combat fatigue system (i'm working on this actually) that finally actually shows that Dwarfs can easily carry heavy equipment.

With the removal of movement penalties for shields + heavy armour Dwarfs were made less powerful, and making cavalry cost about 50% of what they used to makes it even worse! If you look at the newest Dwarf list (Slayer list), what did they do? Hey, they made a rule to make them get to the enemy faster, maybe a hint? Maybe they figured out they kind of fethed that up?

Ahem - Dwarves are supposed to be slow - if you want something faster, just go out and play pansy elves.

And humans aren't supposed to be able to march constantly while wearing full plate armour, nor are horses carrying those.

And i don't play Dwarfs, i play Dark Elves, Nurgle/Khorne Chaos and have warband-size Orcs and Goblins and Empire armies. All are infantry heavy.

And movement is supposed to take place in the movement phase - this is not 40K. If you really want to make Dwarves as fast as humans, then just give them M4.

Erm, movement spells?

I don't want to make them as fast as humans, i want to show how they can keep on marching where a human would be tired.

And ugh, it's all the fault of the inferior turns system that GW loves so much. Any proper game has an Action based system where this would not be a problem.

[flain]

Well, considering that Dwarves are really used to heavy armour (they even mine in it) it indeed should show in the game. Maybe make the fleet only available when the Dwarfs would normally be able to march, so when there are no enemies whitin 8".

And I tested the organ gun... it was extremely painful for the enemy and the next battle for me. first battle I blew up a unit of 8 knights at once. second battle I rolled a misfire and was not allowed to shoot next turn (and then got overrun by the same knights). To me this is a bit too unreliable. It still is Dwarven made and should be (as all Dwarf things) reliable even when they invented it only a couple of 100 years ago. I think that it would work better when you roll 2D6 for the hits, double is misfire.
With the current rules you score 0-10 hits and is therefor not a reliable thing and won't be put on a battle field. With the 2D6 you score 3-11 hits (2 and 12 are misfires). that is far more reliable as 1/6 times it is 7 hits. Then I really would put it on the battlefield again. And you still have 1/6 times a misfire as it is now.

And of topic: a combat fatique system? sounds interesting.

[Griefbringer]

I don't want to make them as fast as humans, i want to show how they can keep on marching where a human would be tired.

Well, adding D3 to their movement would make their average marching speed 8" per turn (same as humans), and average non-marching speed 5" (faster than human).

[anarchistica]

Well, considering that Dwarves are really used to heavy armour (they even mine in it) it indeed should show in the game. Maybe make the fleet only available when the Dwarfs would normally be able to march, so when there are no enemies whitin 8".

Yeah i considered that too, perhaps that'd be better.

And I tested the organ gun... it was extremely painful for the enemy and the next battle for me. first battle I blew up a unit of 8 knights at once. second battle I rolled a misfire and was not allowed to shoot next turn (and then got overrun by the same knights). To me this is a bit too unreliable. It still is Dwarven made and should be (as all Dwarf things) reliable even when they invented it only a couple of 100 years ago. I think that it would work better when you roll 2D6 for the hits, double is misfire.
With the current rules you score 0-10 hits and is therefor not a reliable thing and won't be put on a battle field. With the 2D6 you score 3-11 hits (2 and 12 are misfires). that is far more reliable as 1/6 times it is 7 hits. Then I really would put it on the battlefield again. And you still have 1/6 times a misfire as it is now.

How about rolling 1 Artillery Die and doubling the result? It would be Dwarfishly reliable, be in line with the Hellblaster and be quite dangerous all of a sudden (4-20 possible hits!) without being too deadly (it doesn't have the "30 hits misfire" for one thing!).

And of topic: a combat fatique system? sounds interesting.

It's quite easy to implement actually. Armour and certain other equipment can in some cases make you more tired which hampers your CC ability and disallows you to march, etc. It could also work for magic.

Well, adding D3 to their movement would make their average marching speed 8" per turn (same as humans), and average non-marching speed 5" (faster than human).

Well, if they want to move and shoot they can still only move 3" for one thing.

EDIT: Ok, new idea:

If there are no enemy units within 8", a Dwarf unit can choose to perform a "Quick March". This follows all the rules for marching and allows the unit to move an additional d3". A character that performs a Quick March can't do anything during the Shooting Phase (i.e. can't throw a weapon with Rune of Flight).

[zephyro]

There are just some small problems with these things I see.

Firstly, by giving them quick march, you take away the one factor that makes them balanced. They stay slow.

I do believe dwarfs should be more pushed to go combat heavy, or at least with less shooting units, but not like in the slayer list.

Do you know how much people are complaining about the slayer list?
The extra movement makes them so powerfull, that they are on combat at turn 2, and then can slaughter eneme regiments with their powerfull attacks.

The ''give slayer skills'' idea shouldn't be done.It makes over-powerfull combat lords of dwarves, capable of killing greater daemons, which shouldn't be happening (come on, a 200 points dwarf killing a 665 points guy)

What I would suggest, is that dwarfs get a small bit off shooting, but more for combat.

What about giving dwarfs +d6 charge range??As if they are so focused on combat, that they are in some kinda rage to kill the enemy.

The 2:1 outnumbering thing is much too powerfull.

Let's say you take a cheap warrior unit of 20 guys with heavy armour and shield.
I (as TK player) have to take a unit of 40 skeleton warriors to outnumber and break them, which is just not right, as no players TK players take skeleton warrior units of 40 guys (they cost 360 points, and take up a big space in your battle line, can be easily flanked, ETC.)

Even for VC it can become a hard job.

I myself have only ahve seen the problem that dwarf players have to focus on shooting too much to be powerfull.

For the rest they are a powerfull enough army (especially in low point games, they are the ruling force with 500 points and such).

Zephyro

[Griefbringer]

If there are no enemy units within 8", a Dwarf unit can choose to perform a "Quick March". This follows all the rules for marching and allows the unit to move an additional d3". A character that performs a Quick March can't do anything during the Shooting Phase (i.e. can't throw a weapon with Rune of Flight).

Still makes Dwarves as fast as humans on normal march, plus they also get to do normal march moves when within 8" of the enemy on top of that, making them overall faster than normal humans!

But at least the rule is now relatively coherent, though needing to throw that D3 separately for every unit might be a bit clumsy (and can you roll for all units before moving the first one?).

As for throwing those weapons with rune of flight, I think they should count as shooting attacks and be disallowed if the dwarf makes any sort of march move.

[Megilain]

Maybe give them the rule that they never negate ranks, but that they can claim rank bonus. Then they are still very painful, but not wiping every unit they charge the first turn.

How about making them a little bit similar to Beast herds. Skirmishers that have rank bonuses up to +2, always rank at least 4 wide, 25% of the unit must be within charge distance and as skirmishers do not negate ranks bonuses. With their movement of 3 they still wouldn´t rival the herds mobility, but could really pack a punch. Perhaps it would be going to far to suggest that they could move to board similarly to Ambush-rule...

[Festus]

Hi

Interesting thread!

I think that the proposed changes are well thought out, but some still need a lot of thinking put into them nonetheless.

First: Remember the synergy certain changes will have. All of those together will make the Dwarves too good IMO.

Second: to the changes in particular:

Runelord/Magic:
The two dice runelord seems like a good idea, especially considering other similar concepts in WHFB. And I really like the increasing amount of DD with the points. But I would not raise the amount of Energy Dice simultaneously.
Just stay with the basic amount.

Movement:
The M of the Dwarves is perfect as it is, IMO: The 6" makes them move slower as all others (as should be), but once the fighting gets close and personal, they are at a distinct advantage because they will be faster than even elf infantry within 8". I like the chage the 6th Ed brought about for the Dwarves, as this increases their tactical flexibility.
In 5th, you couldn't react a bit as soon as there were some skirmishers/flyers within marchblock-range and you were a sitting duck.
Now you can react. This flaw was fixed very elegantly by GW IMO.

Outnumbering:
True, outnumbering against fear causers is the main problem for Dwarves, as all their high Ld (which is paid for heavily by M and points cost ... compare Elves and Dwarves and you'll see what I mean) comes to nothing against cheap fear causing troops (Zombies, Skellies, et al.) This makes Undead nigh on impossible to beat with Dwarves.
The solution is simple:
In the same vein as ignoring enemies while marching, the Dwarves can be stubborn enough to ignore the being outnumbered.
Just let them ignore the autobreak-rule for being outnumbered by a fear causing enemy as long as they have passed a necessary fear test against them (being charged, charging themselves, and similar. If there was no fear test to be taken - e.g. overrun - they will still be immune automatically against the fear-autobreak).
This is just a small exception which even solves the Longbeard's problem in one go. Such is the determination of Dwarves, that they won't run from a few piles of bones shambling towards them.

The 2:1 outnumbering thing is much too powerfull.

Let's say you take a cheap warrior unit of 20 guys with heavy armour and shield.
I (as TK player) have to take a unit of 40 skeleton warriors to outnumber and break them, which is just not right, as no players TK players take skeleton warrior units of 40 guys (they cost 360 points, and take up a big space in your battle line, can be easily flanked, ETC.)

Even for VC it can become a hard job.

For the rest they are a powerfull enough army (especially in low point games, they are the ruling force with 500 points and such).

The problem is not the Dwarf Warriors but the Elites, who are at the short end of the stick here...
... jut make the immunity only encompassing the elite infantries? Longbeards, Ironbreakers, and Hammerers?
And Dwarfs are of course superior in games of 500 points, as their statline makes them fomidable on the skirmish level (T4 and much armour and Ld9 sure is something), but this becomes a liability with M3 in higher level games with a more stratecic aspect.
The same holds true for Elves the other way round: They fold as easily as Humans in tactical games, but become strategically superior in strategic games due to their M and their specialisation.

Rangers:
I really like the Beastherd approach, but I still think that rangers are fine the way they are: Scouts that rank up and are able to move through woods unhindered? Great in my book, as woods usually are the terrain they will end up in.
As they are, they are a major pain in the *** for most enemies.
Maybe make them ignore mountaineous terrain as well for fluff purposes (hill-dwarves anyone?) and to make them more adaptable to the different terrain collections of the players?

Slayers:
Come on, Slayers are one of the best Swarms in the game: T4 swarm with WS4 and 4W and 4 A on a 40mm frontage, and they can even have Champions and Characters - complete with runes!
For 44 points a base (4 Slayers are exactly 40mm x 40mm) they are a steal compared to other swarms.
They even have rank bonuses and can have a full command!

They are THE tarpit if used correctly!

Add to that the spiffy Slayer-rule and the hatred against Greenskins, and you have one of the best units in a balanced force.
Every shot at the slayers is a shot away from your Elite regiments, so use them wisely: They are brilliant the way they are (although I for one would like to see them skirmishing: The added flexibility weighs up the missing rank bonus nicely IMO).

Miners:
I really think they should have the ICFB, if only to reduce the amount of special rules and to streamline the game.

Anything shooty (Engineers, Cannons, OGuns, etc.):
If you have any problem with the Dwarves War Machines, you are relying too much on shooting IMNSHO (apart from the fact that playing a Dwarven gunline is etreeeemly boring).
War Machines are support pieces, not the end of your strategy.
If you had War Machines that were more reliable than the Dwarf ones are right now (with all the runes and stuff), you would go the way of a Skaven SAD: A very silly thing IMO.
The only thing I would change is to make Engineers radically different: Profile of a normal crewman (he is not a fighter but an engineer!) and being an upgrade for the War Machine: As proposed the +1 on the Misfire chart is good (and ther is no rune already covering that) and fluffy, as the engineer takes care of the machines function.
Let's see:
An added crewman, thus more survivability for the machine vs shooting and a better chace against most close combat, plus a nice little insurance against blowing up: How does 25 points sound to you?

That is my 2c, and I think that those changes won't have too many synergy effects to make the Dwarf list broken - which it isn't up to now. As others said: The Dwarves just need a few minor tweaks...

Greetings
Festus

[flain]

The M of the Dwarves is perfect as it is, IMO: The 6" makes them move slower as all others (as should be), but once the fighting gets close and personal, they are at a distinct advantage because they will be faster than even elf infantry within 8". I like the chage the 6th Ed brought about for the Dwarves, as this increases their tactical flexibility.

The additional movement we got is a little bit cancelled out due to the fact many armies got faster since last edition. Dwarfs not having penalties for heavy armour/shield and the rest did. Now no-one has that penalty. This has not been compensated for the dwarfs.

And I don't know what your experiences are with the rangers, but mine are bad. They do nothing against knight, other scouts just run around them and shoot them, against mass armies I cannot even deploy them with having effect. The only armies it works on is small armies which are not too fast.

And the problem with the shooting that the army so-called best warmachines sees that many armies have better versions. Pure shooting is boring, but others should not have better ones when the fluff says we have the best/most reliable.

Last of all: the gyrocopter. It is too many points to auto-crash when it has lost combat (which is quite easy with 1A and US1) Give it the steam tank rule that it is allowed to leave combat and that it cannot flee from combat (not unbreakable, it still suffers from normal phychology)

[Festus]

Hi

And I don't know what your experiences are with the rangers, but mine are bad. They do nothing against knight, other scouts just run around them and shoot them, against mass armies I cannot even deploy them with having effect. The only armies it works on is small armies which are not too fast.

The rangers are one of the best units in the dwarfs arsenal:
You just have to deploy them in a wood on the table to deny basically every enemy unit the passage along this wood.
Take knights for example.
The knights can either start their move outside of the 8" range, allowing them to march and present their flank to the rangers lying in waiting, or they are marchblocked and will do simply the same.
The rangers (like all scouts) are not here for the damage potential, but as a tactical tool in your box to deny the enemy's options or to herd him to where you want him.
And a unit of Rangers charging a knight unit's flank usually sees the knights of pretty well

And the problem with the shooting that the army so-called best warmachines sees that many armies have better versions. Pure shooting is boring, but others should not have better ones when the fluff says we have the best/most reliable.

No, please don't. Basing your logic on fluff is to much High-Elf for me. They are described as the best out of the west and their infantry is just a bit better than other's core, so the HE players whine to no end...

The Dwarf Artillery is good, very good with runes, so nothing to complain here.

Last of all: the gyrocopter. It is too many points to auto-crash when it has lost combat (which is quite easy with 1A and US1) Give it the steam tank rule that it is allowed to leave combat and that it cannot flee from combat (not unbreakable, it still suffers from normal phychology)

Mate, if you let your Gyro get into close combat, you deserve to lose it, really.
It has to be used just like fast cavalry, with the exception that it is faster (20") and is much shootier!
It was never meant to fight hand-to-hand.

Greetings
Festus

[Lordmonkey]

The 2:1 outnumbering thing is much too powerfull.

Dunno if it's just me misintepreting something, but it isn't 2:1, it's just MORE.

I think Dwarfs are nicely balanced as they are. Probably one of the most balanced armies in the game...

I'd still like to see their elites get a bit more bang for the buck. Too many dwarf warrior armies out there atm.

[flain]

No, please don't. Basing your logic on fluff is to much High-Elf for me. They are described as the best out of the west and their infantry is just a bit better than other's core, so the HE players whine to no end...

True enough.

Mate, if you let your Gyro get into close combat, you deserve to lose it, really.
It has to be used just like fast cavalry, with the exception that it is faster (20") and is much shootier!
It was never meant to fight hand-to-hand.

I know it wasn't meant for HTH, but the possibility that it gets charged by skinks or beastmen is huge with the amount of skirmishers they got. It doesn't feel right that it would auto-crash when 2 skinks just look at it. Against other armies it is fine.

But the problem with the fear-causers remains. 2:1 to claim outnumbering is nice, but then we get the other way around: the VC and TK players complaining that dwarfs are too hard. Giving it to longbeards seems fine (in addition to the immune to panic) and maybe the other elites should get it too. It would make them more worthwhile then they are now (especially the long-beards)

[zephyro]

But the problem with the fear-causers remains. 2:1 to claim outnumbering is nice, but then we get the other way around: the VC and TK players complaining that dwarfs are too hard. Giving it to longbeards seems fine (in addition to the immune to panic) and maybe the other elites should get it too. It would make them more worthwhile then they are now (especially the long-beards)

What about turning this into a unit upgrade for either 1 unit of longbeards, ironbreakers or hammerers per lord??.

About +2-3 points per model extra.

That seems like a good deal to me.

Zephyro

[Avian]

The additional movement we got is a little bit cancelled out due to the fact many armies got faster since last edition. Dwarfs not having penalties for heavy armour/shield and the rest did. Now no-one has that penalty. This has not been compensated for the dwarfs.

It must be mentioned that pretty much nobody were affected by the HA+SH penalty in the last edition, apart from Empire Knights. High Elves and Dwarves ignored the penalty and pretty much nobody else who could would take a shield with heavy armour.

Thus the change we see in this edition is that Empire Knights have M7 instead of M6. That's it and Dwarves do not need a rule to compensate for that (and the changes suggested here wouldn't help anyway).



Dwarves have M3 for a reason, and that is that the designers wanted them to be slow. I really do not think they will go for a change that makes them move at average speed.

[Lady Bastet]

I would have suggested rules along the lines of “look Snorri Trolls” or that Black Templar vow that gives the army the free movement towards Psykers.

[Gotrek]

TK would actualy be the most affected by the 2:1 rule couse they cannot create more skellies than the initial unit and are the only ones that can't march in any way but consider this. a bunch of zombies with a vampire thrall charge a unit of hammerers with a general in there. dwarf chalanges. champion accepts. a few bad rolls and a unit of 600+ pts with LD 10 and most likely a reroll from a BSB (never leave home without one) flees with 2d6-1 inches and gets caught by a unit half it's cost. i don't want VC and TK to cry out unfair but i don't want the same thing for dwarves. a 2:1 ratio would make small units such as miners and rangers to flee anyway but would make the rock hard dwarven units hold. besides i cannot feel sorry of one of the cheesiest army books out there (VC) and i'd be delighted if they actualy had to use their head instead of just go in a straight line against our troops with some cheesy character.

[zephyro]

ok, since nopbody reacts to it, I'll post my idea again.

What if 1-2 elite units per lord could get the rule for 1-2-3 points extra??

Zephyro