Multiple charges and shifting

[Feefait]

Okay this has been bugging me for a while. Had an issue in a recent game and didn't feel it was resolved correctly so I am throwing it to you. Situation : HE spearmen 5 x 4 are charged by (in order) 4 wide razorgors and 3 wide minotaurs. Minos were directly in front, razorgors just to the right, barely in front flank. Here's my best approximation:


...............sssss...
...............sssss...
...............sssss...
...............sssss....
.............................
.............................
RaRaRaRa.....MiMiMi

okay sp being a little whiny here but my opponent doesn't generally allow flank charges so thats out of the question in this situation. he will generally argue facing and position on anything until i give up so i no longer even try for flanks. i gave up here too but probably should not have.

so raz's charge followed by minos. according to my opponent the raz charge, shift so i bring all my models and his in thereby covering his frontage and the minos fail charge.end result:

.......sssss....
....RaRaRaRa....
.......MiMiMi...

My interpretation is I only need one wheel to hit, then shift to maximize all fighting models - not base coverage. This would leave my right raz corner to corner, leaving space for the minos.

.......sssss.......
RaRaRaRaMiMiMi....

This he said was illegal because I would not be able to maximize my Minos and some would be unable to fight. I always read it though as if there is space to allow shifting then do it, as long as I maximize the total models that fight. So all models that can position themselves to fight must do so. I could not charge my razorgors in and just hit 1 spearman, or minos or whatever, leaving him with frontage that cannot fight.

It was a huge fight and I ended up just giving up to get the game over (and preserve a friendship lol) - and ended up getting creamed. It left my Minos flanked by 2 repeater bolthrowers and a level 4 mage. My goal had been to destroy the spearmen and run off the table, saving myself a turn from shooting.

Anyway, how should this have been resolved?

[theunwantedbeing]

Rulebook, page 23?

Seems to solve the issue.

[Feefait]

I thought the same. The - debate - was over shifting. As I said it should occur at the same time, to maximize all models. Not move one, shift and subsequently block another unit. As I said I may just be being whiny here, but I need to know I'm right because next time I won't give up on it - and I've been wrong plenty of times on things that seemed obvious.

[Haravikk]

Rulebook, page 23?

This, it seems fairly clear they move at the same time, and try to line up evenly. So if two units attack an enemy's front, then they aim for 50% of the enemy frontage each. It gets trickier with three or more, but in such cases the units in the middle determine how much space is left for the units on the edges.

[rtunian]

So if two units attack an enemy's front, then they aim for 50% of the enemy frontage each.

this is wrong: think about how that would work if i charge a solo character on foot (or a single troll, or a chariot, or a solo char on monster) alongside a unit of infantry into an enemy block.

what you have to do is maximize the number of models in contact. the way the op example looks, minotaur and razorgor have the same frontage (i assume 40mm). spearmen are 20mm, x5 = 100mm. 6 40mm bases is the most that you can get in against 100mm frontage. since they have the same base size, you have some flexibility in how they line up. you can do 4 razorgors and 2 minotaurs, or all 3 minotaurs and 3 razorgors (of course, that's if they have 40mm bases)

you have less flexibility when you are charging with 2 differently sized bases. for example, if you combo charge with a unit of trolls and a unit of boyz into that same spearmen unit, the most you can get is still 6, but it must be 5 boyz and 1 troll, because any more than 1 troll and you cannot get 6 in combat, and you must get 6 in, because that is the max that you can get in, and the rules say you must endeavour to bring the max into combat.

[Culven]

I'm not as current on my Fantasy rules, so forgive me if I get something wrong.

First, isn't the side the unit hits determined by which quadrant the majority of the charging unit is in? The diagram may be a bit off, but it looks to me that the Razorgors should be charging into the Flank.

Second, is this an issue of shifting or initial alignment when the chargers hit? I thought that shifting was only done to the minimum extent possible, with the wheel before the charge intended to get as many models into the combat as possible. Shifting shouldn't typically bring more than one more model into contact, should it? For example, one unit charges another (assume base sizes are equal to make life easier). The Chargers wheel and move in, but are unable to have a clear path to the entire frontage. They manage to hit two and a half of the models in the front rank. With the shift, they slide over so that three models are fullt engaged, with a fourth added by being corner to corner. As I understnad it, nothing requires nor allows the Chargers to shift so that the two units are fully aligned across their front ranks.

[Feefait]

The diagrams may be a bit biased as I thought at the time they were in the flank but as soon as my opponent began to object i relented. as I said it is a constant argument - to the point we don't play against each other really anymore. However giving him the benefit of the doubt the issue became who aligned where in the front, and when did they align (re:shift)?

[TMATK]

...

okay sp being a little whiny here but my opponent doesn't generally allow flank charges so thats out of the question in this situation. he will generally argue facing and position on anything until i give up so i no longer even try for flanks. i gave up here too but probably should not have.

...

It was a huge fight and I ended up just giving up to get the game over (and preserve a friendship lol) - and ended up getting creamed.

...

Anyway, how should this have been resolved?

Maybe you should resolve this situation by playing someone else?

Seriously though, based on your description of the conflict it doesn't sound like a very fun game.

I don't see the need to be so nit picky with things like this. The way my friend and I deal with situations like this is - If the 2 units can reach, we move them in and even them out. That seems to me to be what is described on p23, and is the simple and easy solution.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

The key point is that two units charging the same facing of an enemy unit resolve their charges simultaneously and split the frontage (rather than charging one at a time such that one unit hogs all the frontage and the other can't get in).

[Culven]

The key point is that two units charging the same facing of an enemy unit resolve their charges simultaneously. . .

Is shifting part of the charge move, or is it more akin to "Defenders React" from 40K where all charging units are moved before the rule is addressed for any unit? If so, wouldn't they be dealt with as part of the sequential moving of charges in the order declared?

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Strictly speaking shifting isn't a rule at all. GaP, if you use it, you do so to prevent models from being unrealistically stranded from the fight, which wouldn't apply in this case anyway.

If so, wouldn't they be dealt with as part of the sequential moving of charges in the order declared?

The key point in this situation (two units charging the same facing of an enemy unit) is that the charges are resolved simultaneously, instead of sequentially.

[Culven]

Is this a special case addressed by the rules? I didn't realise that there were any exceptions to the general rule that charging units are to be moved in the order in which they are declared. I have actually caused some of my charges to fail because of a unit which was declared earlier blocking the enemy unit. It would be nice to be able to avoid doing so. Where can I find this addressed in the rulebook?

[TMATK]

Is this a special case addressed by the rules? I didn't realise that there were any exceptions to the general rule that charging units are to be moved in the order in which they are declared. Because of this, I have actually caused failed charges because of this. It would be nice to be able to avoid doing so. Where can I find this addressed in the rulebook?

BRB Page 23

[Yellow Commissar]

The first question here, to me, is whether the Razorgor are in the front arc or the flank. This is quite easily determined by folding a piece of letter size paper so that the top edge lines up along one side. Now you have a perfect 45 degree angle. Place the paper in base with the Spears and you will see exactly where the arcs fall amongst the charging unit. You can even slide the paper underneath the movement trays of the units involved for accuracy. BRB pg. 21 seems clear to me if the unit straddles two zones.

If it is determined that both charging units are in the front arc, then, as stated multiple times, page 23 rather obviously applies.

What was done in the OPs diagrams is not correct.

[Eladimir]

Thanks for clearing this up for me as well. Looks like the BRB did a pretty good job being clear in this case.

Oft forgotten fact when decided frontage you count how many models would be in the flank side of the 45 degree angle vs in the front side. but its only the FRONT rank models that matter.

[Deprive]

At work so this from memory. To my recollection it says If possible you try to make both units that are charging the same unit to the same side have the amount of models in base so for instance you would have 2 minis and 2 razorgorsys in base.
Also under charges it says that after all charges have been declared you may move/resolve them in any order.

[Montegue]

By the way, determining if you're in his flank is very easy. Use a plastic arc template. If more than 50% of your models are in his flank, then you charge to the flank. If it's about even, you roll a D6. If less than 50%, you are in his front.

[Artiee]

By the way, determining if you're in his flank is very easy. Use a plastic arc template. If more than 50% of your models are in his flank, then you charge to the flank. If it's about even, you roll a D6. If less than 50%, you are in his front.

Just to clarify, its 50% of the front rank. Not 50% of all your models.