The Blood Lance

[DJ3]

ashnaile, seriously?

I hope I never play against you... :-/
Does no one play with respect for their opponent any more?

I'm not so worried by the ultra-rules-lawyers that post here trying to gain support for their attempt to bend the rules in their favor, because it at least proves that the idea that they might not be correct has entered their heads.

The ones to worry about are the dudes at your local store who are consistently misreading rules for benefit, and allow no room for the consideration that they might be wrong.

[PLR]

That's true, but I'm still amazed at times the things people try and do.

Nothing better than the people that say: "But I read it on the internet, so it must be right!".
The only response to that is: "Well I read on the internet that you are a *****."

Personally, I'd play the rule exactly the same as Jaws. First target hit is the target unit, anything hit after is a bonus.

[Culven]

Does no one play with respect for their opponent any more?

I can't find this requirement in the rulebook.

I'm not so worried by the ultra-rules-lawyers that post here trying to gain support for their attempt to bend the rules in their favor,. . .

On behalf of the Ultra Rules Lawyers on this forum, I would like to point out that we aren't trying to bend the rules to our favour, we are trying to figure out they are trying to say. It is the Pseudo Rules Lawyers who are trying to gain the advantage, and we tend to shoot them down pretty quickly.

[mchmr6677]

I can't find this requirement in the rulebook.

Page 3, "The Most Important Rule"

Even rules-lawyers can't dodge that one....

[PLR]

Damn, Ninja'd...

[Culven]

Awww . . . but my mates and I have more fun when we don't respect each other. Wait, maybe we are just feigning lack of respect because we actually do respect each each. Drat, foiled again!

[SPYDER68]

Its also required to have.

1: pencil
2: paper

To play.

Though.. i dont see that enforced.

[Marius Xerxes]

Its also required to have.

1: pencil
2: paper

To play.

Though.. i dont see that enforced.

Page 3, "The Most Important Rule"

Even rules-lawyers can't dodge that one....

This is your answer why

[Axeman1n]

/wonder
Why does it have to be the "first" model hit, why not the last?

[PLR]

Considering is a variable range. If you went by the shooting rules and picked a target 18" away (as an example) then rolled a 10" for range, you could argue that the power missed (including the models at 3" and 8").

Second we're referring to the ruling on Jaws which is "similar" in operation...

[Deetwo]

Second we're referring to the ruling on Jaws which is "similar" in operation...

It's not only similar, the mechanic is pretty much exactly the same.. And the differences between the two powers (not hitting friendly units or combats and random range) do not make the slightest bit of difference in this particular discussion.

It's perfectly reasonable to expect the same logic (well, "logic"...) to apply to both powers.
In other words, the target is the first model on the path of the hairline... And yes, you roll for range after you have declared the target so it can miss alltogether if you don't roll far enough... Not that it would hit anything in that case anyway.

Why does it have to be the "first" model hit, why not the last?

I assume that's because normally you measure range to the closest model in the target unit. Why you aren't allowed to target units past the first is beyond me, but that's where we are at anyway

[Corrode]

/wonder
Why does it have to be the "first" model hit, why not the last?

Because it's a psychic shooting attack which means it still requires Line of Sight, and requiring you to target the last model you want to hit throws up all kinds of awkward questions about 'so can I target that model even though it's out of LoS and potentially out of range even if I roll well'.

[Deetwo]

Because it's a psychic shooting attack which means it still requires Line of Sight, and requiring you to target the last model you want to hit throws up all kinds of awkward questions about 'so can I target that model even though it's out of LoS and potentially out of range even if I roll well'.

Hardly an awkward question considering the answers would be very easy, that no you cannot target a model out of LoS as normal and yes you can select targets potentially out of range as with any ranged attack (and just miss completely if that happens, as normal).

But your logic is somewhat of a fallacy considering that's really not how shooting attacks actually work. For instance you can take a flamer and target a model that is NOT the closest one.
This is why the FAQ entry for JotWW is a bit silly... But still that's apparently how GW wants us to handle the effect, including Blood Lance by extension.

[SPYDER68]

Hardly an awkward question considering the answers would be very easy, that no you cannot target a model out of LoS as normal and yes you can select targets potentially out of range as with any ranged attack (and just miss completely if that happens, as normal).

But your logic is somewhat of a fallacy considering that's really not how shooting attacks actually work. For instance you can take a flamer and target a model that is NOT the closest one.
This is why the FAQ entry for JotWW is a bit silly... But still that's apparently how GW wants us to handle the effect, including Blood Lance by extension.

Except of target unit is out of range for the flamer it does nothing even if a squad is right in front

[Corrode]

Hardly an awkward question considering the answers would be very easy, that no you cannot target a model out of LoS as normal and yes you can select targets potentially out of range as with any ranged attack (and just miss completely if that happens, as normal).

My point was that requiring the psyker to pick the last model he wants to hit as the 'target' would make the power extremely difficult to use. The entire idea behind the 'line' powers is to hit multiple targets along the line; a requirement to draw the line through the farthest model then raises questions like 'what if it's not in LoS' and 'how do I decide if that's the last model I can hit before I roll the dice for range, which I can't do until I've declared a target'.

But your logic is somewhat of a fallacy considering that's really not how shooting attacks actually work. For instance you can take a flamer and target a model that is NOT the closest one.
This is why the FAQ entry for JotWW is a bit silly... But still that's apparently how GW wants us to handle the effect, including Blood Lance by extension.

I'm aware of that. Flamers and blast weapons are entirely irrelevant to the discussion, however, since they have their own rules regarding which models they have to target ('as many as possible' and 'as many as possible whilst having the hole over a specific model's head' respectively). The point is that JotWW/Blood Lance work this way to minimise the number of rules problems that would otherwise be created - the closest model on the line is the one to which the psyker is most likely to have LoS, and if the psyker's out of range of that model it's also going to be out of range of every other model on the line. The 'target' is the closest model for a very good reason.

e: also what SPYDER68 said, the whole idea of the line is that it one can hit multiple units; what if the last target I could possibly hit was one that was 24" away and I roll 23"? Do the other three units I could hit simply remain unaffected? The power would be almost worthless in this incarnation, which is why GW ruled as they have.

[benation]

Its still nice that you can jump a dread naught librarian out of a stormraven, position him so there is an infantry unit between him and a tank, blood lance the infantry unit and pop the tank too, then charge the infantry unit.

[Latro_]

also, welcome to Warseer .

[Ironwarrior177]

FAQ referring to Blood Lance

Q: Blood Lance is a psychic shooting attack that can hit
multiple units. If the Librarian wishes to assault after
using Blood Lance, which unit(s) is he permitted to
assault? (p63)
A: Only the first unit hit by the Blood Lance.

So in response the Unit the Librarian is attached to may only shoot at the first unit the Librarian hits and vice versa, the Librarian must FIRST hit the squad that his unit has shot at and who ever else gets hit, reason being a unit cannot target multiple units unless otherwise stated (i.e Long Fangs can split their fire and Power of the Machine spirit for Vehicles). The rule of "Any Direction" is so that you may maximize hits against a certain squad seeing as an enemy isn't going to align their squad in a straight line for you to shoot. BA players aren't that lucky...