Tactica: 8th Edition Lizardmen

[Malorian]

In the world of holding objectives, the fastest and hardest to break unit wins.

Who cares if you have to give the skinks 10 ranks, as long as they get to the objective first and hold it then you win.

[Ultimate Life Form]

I always wanted to do an all-Saurus list but it seemed to leave lots to be desired. Am I right in assuming this just got a lot more viable, as being outflanked isn't as devastating as it used to be? What, I lose stubborn? Guh, what do I care, I'm still Cold Blooded Ld8 at a static CR of 4 and the ability to strike back after losses!

[Vsurma]

Flanking adds +4 combat res at best, skinks will take more casualties than back than any other combat unit in the game ('cept zombies) So Skinks will only be good flankers for cav or weak infantry.

Skinks woun't actually get the opportunity to flank cav often so that won't come up, and if you need skinks to help you break weak infantry with your saurus, or Krox or whatever, than something is so wrong that skinks won't help.

Sorry Spiney, I just think the T2 means that skinks will take so many casualties back that they won't help, or at least won't be worth the points.

ANY other unit you say!?

to kill 4 skinks you need a min of 4 attacks (which most units you want to flank will have) still, they need to hit (3+ most of the time) AND wound (2+ or even 2+)

You need 9! S3 ws4 attacks to get 4 cr from skinks! What units have that!?

Also since the unit in the first rank is already engaged, your flank maneuver doesn't add attacks in this case, though it will most likely redirect them towards the skinks.

Heck even saurus warriors (2nd strongest infantry in the game) on the flank would get only 8 attacks (with 4 ranks... and who even runs 4!) of which only 6 are extra attacks (discounting the front rank) those 6 attacks will kill an average of about 3.3 skinks.

Even the mighty saurus cannot best the added 4 cr... How is that ANY? when in fact..... pretty much no unit does that much damage to the skinks. (chaos warriors hit only as hard as saurus vs t2 skinks, no better)

Now if you win and the enemy runs you get 2 tries at running them down, if you lose and your units run, you now have twice the chance of at least 1 unit holding.

The downside is?

[Spiney Norman]

ANY other unit you say!?

to kill 4 skinks you need a min of 4 attacks (which most units you want to flank will have) still, they need to hit (3+ most of the time) AND wound (2+ or even 2+)

You need 9! S3 ws4 attacks to get 4 cr from skinks! What units have that!?

Also since the unit in the first rank is already engaged, your flank maneuver doesn't add attacks in this case, though it will most likely redirect them towards the skinks.

Heck even saurus warriors (2nd strongest infantry in the game) on the flank would get only 8 attacks (with 4 ranks... and who even runs 4!) of which only 6 are extra attacks (discounting the front rank) those 6 attacks will kill an average of about 3.3 skinks.

Even the mighty saurus cannot best the added 4 cr... How is that ANY? when in fact..... pretty much no unit does that much damage to the skinks. (chaos warriors hit only as hard as saurus vs t2 skinks, no better)

Now if you win and the enemy runs you get 2 tries at running them down, if you lose and your units run, you now have twice the chance of at least 1 unit holding.

The downside is?

Exactly, very few infantry units will be able to muster 9 attacks to the flank (assuming that the fight in 2 ranks thing is only to the front). Also based on 2 ranks of skinks attacking, the odds are against most infantry they'll kill at least 1 (even against chaos warriors they've got over a 50% chance of wounding when flanking), which swings it further in their favour.

Don't get me wrong, skinks aren't the saviours of the LM list, but thanks to their crappy WS, saurus and Krox aren't going to reliably win combat by huge margins any more than they currently do in 7th. I just think its fair to save that skinks do deserve their place.

[Gaargod]

As far as i know, 2 ranks fighting works for the flank too. In other words, most units can put out enough damage to kill the skinks to gain/equal any combat res issues.
It could work, i'll give you. But its very dodgy.

Using skinks as Mv6 stubborn core blobs is much more viable. 200pts to take a big unit of 40 to just sit on an objective, with a BSB somewhere around, will probably make it fairly easy to hold it. Although it pains me to think of paying 200pts for WS2 T2 models built for combat!

[Glen_Savet]

I've heard nothing about fighting in two ranks to the flank. If that's so, it makes spears more appealing even. Getting a third ranks attacks to your flanks will make saurus even more of a tricky target to charge.

[Bac5665]

ANY other unit you say!?

to kill 4 skinks you need a min of 4 attacks (which most units you want to flank will have) still, they need to hit (3+ most of the time) AND wound (2+ or even 2+)

You need 9! S3 ws4 attacks to get 4 cr from skinks! What units have that!?

Also since the unit in the first rank is already engaged, your flank maneuver doesn't add attacks in this case, though it will most likely redirect them towards the skinks.

Heck even saurus warriors (2nd strongest infantry in the game) on the flank would get only 8 attacks (with 4 ranks... and who even runs 4!) of which only 6 are extra attacks (discounting the front rank) those 6 attacks will kill an average of about 3.3 skinks.

Even the mighty saurus cannot best the added 4 cr... How is that ANY? when in fact..... pretty much no unit does that much damage to the skinks. (chaos warriors hit only as hard as saurus vs t2 skinks, no better)

Now if you win and the enemy runs you get 2 tries at running them down, if you lose and your units run, you now have twice the chance of at least 1 unit holding.

The downside is?

9 S3 Attacks. S3 attacks are a joke. If you need to flank a unit of S3 attackers, you've failed. If that's the best skinks can do, then they aren't worth their points.

[Dokushin]

Anyone else catch that mention of a Lore of Light spell that gives WS10 and I10 to everything within 12 inches? ASF Saurus that hit on 3's?

[Cragspyder]

Did we really have to post this thread a month early?

EDIT: Two weeks early! God damn, now I have to find some money....

[Dungeon_Lawyer]

As far as i know, 2 ranks fighting works for the flank too. In other words, most units can put out enough damage to kill the skinks to gain/equal any combat res issues.
It could work, i'll give you. But its very dodgy.

Using skinks as Mv6 stubborn core blobs is much more viable. 200pts to take a big unit of 40 to just sit on an objective, with a BSB somewhere around, will probably make it fairly easy to hold it. Although it pains me to think of paying 200pts for WS2 T2 models built for combat!

Thats alot of poison shots- at least 20 under the new rules right?

throw a few chiefs in there...lol what a crazy config to ponder

[Vsurma]

9 S3 Attacks. S3 attacks are a joke. If you need to flank a unit of S3 attackers, you've failed. If that's the best skinks can do, then they aren't worth their points.

S4 doesn't do too much better, with 9 attacks getting 5 kills. The point is, No unit apart from saurus, or warriors of chaos gets that many on the flank.

Units of 18 saurus will only get 6 and the same goes for the warriors.

You would need to have a unit with 4 ranks to get 8 attacks, you might see that with say an undamaged unit of temple guard or perhaps saurus but unlikely with chaos, and I say might, I think I will continue to run 3*8 for my saurus.

I have heard of no rumor that says you can attack with multiple ranks to the flank, the rumor in the roundup is that you cannot.

The thing is that there are few units that are actually large enough to negate the rank bonus, meaning that the skinks will almost always be beneficial.

If "almost always useful" means "pointless" in your book then yea leave them at home.

[Heimagoblin]

Therory hammer doesn't take into acount your opponent. If your opponents lets you flank him with an infantry unit (even skinks) then I would love to play where you are becuase here, people don't commit if they are going to get flanked and use lots of units like great eagles to redirect possible flankers. At my club,I have never seen an infantry unit that managed to flank another infantry unit unless either the player thinks he can beat them or if they have been in a combat for 4+ turns and the other player has run out of ways to stop them.

[Vsurma]

Then I imagine you will see a lot of lizard and chaos players at your club as they have the best infantry and it is all but impossible according to you to flank, this will make all other infantry fairly weak since they need help. (slight exaggeration but you get the point)

Redirecting is rumored to work very differently in the new addition with actual redirecting possible if the enemy flees your charge so expect to see a lot more, you will at least have to sacrifice the redirecting unit, unlike now when you can just flee, if you wish to redirect a charging opponent.

[Heimagoblin]

The way i'm planning to ride the new addition is take 4 meaty combat blocks which will fight my opponents line until one breaks through (these are units of 14 tg with slann and units of 18 sarus with spears so they will) Then there is also an eotg to protect flanks or break through the line. Add to that 3 units of skinks to scare away march blockers/monsters/ fast cavalry and a unit of 3 terradons to kill warmachines and re-direct.

[Sloppyjayman]

Everyone seems to be talking about Saurus Units. 24 or 18? Spears or HW S? I am thinking of cutting my Saurus units from my list and putting in the following:

30 skinks (STD, MUS) with 3 Kroxigors - 330 points

Movement 6
6 wide
7 ranks (Should hold and make them stubborn)

6x WS3 S# attacks
9x WS3 S6 attacks

Is this better than a Saurus Unit? Points are about the same.

[Malorian]

Is this better than a Saurus Unit? Points are about the same.

Those combo skink/korx units don't look as good in 8th.

-the additional rank attacking doesn't mean as much for them
-getting more attacks back mean more dead skinks
-random charge mean they will be getting charged more often (more dead skinks)

The only thing going for them is the new importance of flanking with a ranked unit.

[Glen_Savet]

Not the ONLY thing going for them. They're still fairly rapid moving infantry, with a banner, ranks and some hitting power. They'll make fairly effective objective grabbing units.

People seem to continue to assume that pitched battles will continue to be the only game in town, when it's been mentioned several times that objectives will play a role in games.

[Malorian]

That's true enough Glen_Savet, they will be fast infantry for objectice purposes.

In those cases though I'd rather skip the krox and spend those points on getting more skinks. More ranks = stubborn and that's more important in my book for holding objectives.

Or for a bit of synergy, but your EotG in the skink unit to really bump up the ranks and give it natural stubborn.

[Glen_Savet]

The fear/terror checks will help to increase skink survivability, 1ws/1a will be a boon.

Personally, I agree with you, skrox units aren't where I'd go. I'd have them separated out if I was going to field krox and skinks. Ranked kroxigor may be a good choice for a flanking unit as well.


EDIT: Thinking about it, I may just keep a single krox in my ranked skinks FOR that fear check.

[Heimagoblin]

Relying on fear checks is a very bad idea. Deamons, tomb kings,vampire counts, chaos warriors,high elves and lizardmen are all almost completly immune either through very high ld, immune to psychology or cause fear themselves.