Tactica: 8th Edition Lizardmen

[Vsurma]

Yes whether or not the slann can be actually hit in the 2nd rank will be interesting, I kind of doubt it. If so it might want to take some kind of magical protection like the ethereal or regen. Not a big deal either way.

The slann doesn't actually strike, its the skink on his chair the pokes the enemy, so I wouldn't bother trying to tool it up for CC.

I am looking forward to running a slann and skink mage as my magic, assuming some better spells in the lore of heavens this should give some variety.

I wouldn't really want to run 2 slanns, but I can see it being very powerful, getting the best spells from 2 lores can be amazing.
That was always the limiting factor that stopped a slann being very powerful, despite his possible 13 dice a turn (using a p stone) he still tended to have only 1 or 2 must dispel spells within the lore he chose and the skink priest never added any such spells to the mix.

Now a slann + skink or slann + slann might be able to cause a lot of damage.

I can't wait to find out the actual spells in each lore.

[Alltaken]

My Slann:
Focused Rumination, Focus of Mystery, Soul of Stone
Maybe every now and then Becalming Cogitation
Items:
Divine Plaque, Cube of Darkness, BSB: Plaque of Domination or Warbanner (according on the army, lots of cheap casters have themselves won a Plaque of Dom)

Supported by an EOTG. Thata 4+ aided by a 1+ from a single lore from the eotg will be so good I guess I'm not throwing anymore than 3 dice tops on any spell (2 dice + 1free dice).

We will rock the magic phase for a certainty.

[Malorian]

My Slann:
Focused Rumination, Focus of Mystery, Soul of Stone
Maybe every now and then Becalming Cogitation
Items:
Divine Plaque, Cube of Darkness, BSB: Plaque of Domination or Warbanner (according on the army, lots of cheap casters have themselves won a Plaque of Dom)

Supported by an EOTG. Thata 4+ aided by a 1+ from a single lore from the eotg will be so good I guess I'm not throwing anymore than 3 dice tops on any spell (2 dice + 1free dice).

We will rock the magic phase for a certainty.

Are you sure you will need the cube?

I wonder what cool new general magic items there will be that would be great in its place

[TheWave]

The skink attacking thing isnt part of this rules set. In 7th the slann attacks and can use flame swords and whatnot. Yeah he is still low wep skill and low str but when you hit on a 2 plus or whatever it doesnt matter that much. I have had battletoad take out units just by being unable to be hurt and slowly grinding down the enemy.

I am still hoping he gets to count as monsterous infantry to go sit on the enemy.

[Malorian]

I have had battletoad take out units just by being unable to be hurt and slowly grinding down the enemy.

You can only tempt fate so long...

[TheWave]

It happening wasnt by design or anything. I happened to take lore fire and when my temple guard got crushed I then cast the spell and sat there forever plinking away at him. I asked the original question in hopes that my temple guard unit would be getting more attacks since he displaces two of them in the fighting ranks even if they are at low skill and str.

[Glen_Savet]

One thing I think may not have been mentioned is the new scenarios seem to require banners to take/hold objectives. Skink cohorts, being as fast as they are, may become very effective objective contesters, scurrying across the board to annoy your opponent's guards whilst your Saurus or TG block holds the closer ones.

Off-topic: Hello the board, my first post!

[DarkstarSabre]

A word if you will for Carnosaurs. Well, for me anyway.

I see a lot of doom crying for the Carnosaur. I see a lot of despair for the Carnosaur. I see a lot of people saying their beloved Carnosaur will never see the light of day again.

I must speak then.

For me, the problem with Carnosaurs in 7th edition, in the 6th edition army book was simple. The problem was the fact that they were considered Large Targets and the Lizardmen army at that time had nothing to counteract or negate shooting, effectively handing the enemy a free +1 to hit against a model with relatively low toughness and wounds that could ALWAYS be picked out.. Bolt throwers had a field day and speared it to death every time.

Along came the 7th edition army book. Gone was the large target rule, allowing us to place our beloved large beastie into units without him being picked out. The Sun Standard came in and suddenly we could start messing with their shooting at an entire unit! I was overjoyed. I loved it.

8th edition makes me worried...but not too worried. It is still not a Large Target. It still can go into units and we still have the Sun Standard, not to mention anything else the new common magic item list gives us. True he cannot break ranks anymore on his own. However, the Stubborn rumours flying about seem to imply when engaged to the front.. I highly doubt my Carnosaur is every going to engage any unit to the front, thus creating a limited frontage that can strike back, especially if I pick on enemy cavalry units. Not to mention that when you put him in a unit of Saurus Cavalry he technically counts as 2 models, meaning you need 2 less to make ranks with.

Let's take that one step further. A lot of people have started coming up with all mounted Scar Vet units. Let's take that. Let's add them to this unit of Cold Ones with a Carnosaur and a magic banner. Suddenly we can bulk this unit out, giving it ranks and have a very, very scary flanking unit that NO ONE will want to see.

I'm looking at 8th and smiling a bit now.

Some units are getting their roles tweaked. Stegadons and Saurus Cavalry are becoming support roles, Kroxigor and Skinks are getting buffed.

My own plans will probably be a constant 2500 points. I'm considering making a number of anvil units (Saurus and Temple Guard) to be deployed at the front with a number of flanking/counter charge hammer units deploying between them (Skinks, Kroxigor, Stegadons, Saurus Cavalry).

The Salamander will become a god amongst almost anything with those templates and I'm quite happily going to have two units of two flanking the centre of the battle line, moving up to spit template death at units nearing the anvil.

Terradons will still serve their anti-war machine role and Skink Skirmishers, being able to march and fire will be downright RUDE in a similar role with blowpipes. Just imagine your opponents face when you pepper their beloved artillery with 20+ blowpipe shots with an effective 24" range. That's practically the difference between deployment zones! Now if you suddenly start targetting large, hard targets like Giants, Ghorgons or Shaggoths....

Hello to your points coming right back.

[Alltaken]

Are you sure you will need the cube?

I wonder what cool new general magic items there will be that would be great in its place

Yeah totally! there might be better options, my logic goes like this. When facing people like elves, WOC, DE, WE you might face solo wizards so terradons, a mounted scarvet, a skink chief with cloak of feathers can tend to that. In cases of O&G, OK, VC, Skaven the wizards will be bunkered.

With the new magic dispelling generation you'll always have less DD than PD. So to adress spamming of spells (VC) or to completely destroy your oponent magic capabilities you nedd to kill wizards by turn 2. Lone wizards don't present any threat but bunkered ones do, now even more since you can spam cheap wizards, besides the feact that I've used it against VC and it has worked every time I found it mostly indespensable. Perhaps no against every oponnent, but it's a cheap DS with a posible + effect.

[Malorian]

So to adress spamming of spells (VC) or to completely destroy your oponent magic capabilities you nedd to kill wizards by turn 2. Lone wizards don't present any threat but bunkered ones do, now even more since you can spam cheap wizards, besides the feact that I've used it against VC and it has worked every time I found it mostly indespensable. Perhaps no against every oponnent, but it's a cheap DS with a posible + effect.

Remember that a 1 or 2 still fails, and once youo fail you can't cast any more, so I don't think you will see spamming like you used to.

At any rate, the way to beat a vampire spam list is through engagement and making them crumble faster than they can be raised (which spear saurus are great at).

[Alltaken]

Remember that a 1 or 2 still fails, and once youo fail you can't cast any more, so I don't think you will see spamming like you used to.

At any rate, the way to beat a vampire spam list is through engagement and making them crumble faster than they can be raised (which spear saurus are great at).

Deffinetly, I was just a little afraid of their cavalry in 7th! they did pack a punch with a nice vamp or wight king in there. Now I actually do allways strike back so maybe my spear sauri can take them back. That was the main reason I didn't charge foward madly. Now I see no reason why not to. Only thing I need to get to charge are kroxs and stegs, sauri will allways strike last and have more ranks to hit anyway by striking last.

Yeah I just might drop it

[Zoolander]

Sorry Darkstar, but due to the Carni having 5 wounds he cannot hide in units. He can try but he'll fail. ;-)

[TheWave]

....? If the carnosaur if a character mount I dont see why he cant. Stegs have five wounds and with characters they hide inside units all the time.

[Gaargod]

Large (non flying) Targets can 'sit' in units, and benefit from all their advantages/problems.

Hide? No. Anything with US5+ can automatically be picked out by shooting/magic.
Of course, US is no longer part of the game. If they are allowed to, i suspect Monsters will still be shot at. Monstrous infantry will probably be able to hide, as currently.


Malorian has it right on VC. They're majorly screwed by the current rules for raise spam - they roll a single 1/2, and the wizard stops casting that turn. Which means they'll be rolling 2 dice for spells, which means half the number of attempts (and a chance of miscasting). Note that if they still generated dice as now, VC would be happy due to having ~15 dice but now casting on a minimum of 6 for lords (double 1 not being a miscast + 4 from level). But it isn't and they're not. VC are pretty much screwed (their raise spam no longer works, combat builds aren't exactly happy with no dragon/no huge blood knights/knights in general being meh, no fear autobreak and their units get grinded to dust faster).


Cube is still very meh. I forget its exact wording (if it says automatically dispel, then its pretty good. If its 'work likes dispel scroll'/gets erratated this way, its not), but its still a fairly expensive item with 50% odds of working. Slann will usually be owning the magic phase anyways, and i'd rather have extra dice from Diadem if we're looking at defensive skink priests.


I anticipate that either spear saurus blocks increase to 24 strong, or we see more 18 strong HW&S combos. Spear saurus blocks outperform the HW&S boys against most targets, but cost an extra 96pts. Perhaps, character percentages allowing, 18 HW&S with a saurus scar vet with shield, light armour and great weapon/halberd will work? Cost almost the same amount of points, more survivable but less numbers and have a nasty hero to kill stuff.
In other words:

> 18 Saurus with full command with a Saurus Scar Vet with shield, light armour and great weapon (or halberd for -2pts) = 313

+ Better survivability with 4+/6++
+ 4 Ws5 S7 attacks striking last
- Less points in core
- More points out of heroes

> 24 Saurus with spears and full command = 318

+ An extra 6 WS3 S4 attacks
- Slightly more expensive

[TheWave]

They may not be able to hide in full but if you slap them in a unit with the flag of minus one shooting then it helps a bit.

[N810]

....? If the carnosaur if a character mount I dont see why he cant. Stegs have five wounds and with characters they hide inside units all the time.

Stegs with characters can join units just like the carnie but neither
they don't get a "look out sir" roll and can both be single out for shoting.

[DarkstarSabre]

Sorry Darkstar, but due to the Carni having 5 wounds he cannot hide in units. He can try but he'll fail. ;-)

I don't know. Being able to give the enemy a -1 to hit due to a standard, -2 if within 12 inches is still far, far better than automatically giving them a +1 to hit. There's a difference of two there and that is quite nice.

That is essentially what I meant through hiding (ignore the rest of it, the tired ramblings of a man home from work). The biggest downside was not only were you being singled out, you were giving them a bonus to hit you as well. 8th edition promises to change target priority a bit as well.

The Carnosaur is probably going to foolishly be ignored by most as no longer being a threat.

10+ attacks a turn from an angry frenzied beast and its rider is not what I would ever term as 'not being a threat'.

Sure, it won't negate ranks. As a result people will likely concentrate more on ranked units in similar roles of flanking. Fine by me. That Carnosaur will generate a very very healthy number toward combat resolution and the fact he can benefit from protective banners and the like is a plus.

Bear in mind we've not seen the new common magic items and there is still a rumour of unit champions all getting access to magic items. If -that- is the case then I will definately slap out for a Shield of the Mirrorored Pool, a Sun Standard and an oldblood with Carnosaur to sit with my cold ones.

[Bac5665]

Sorry, disagree. I think ranked skinks will finally have a role in 8th Ed. Basically there aren't very many M6 cheap core infantry units. If rumours are true and ranks can only be broken by units that have 2 full ranks behind the first skinks will become the games best flanking unit. A unit of 20-25 should be able to soak up some casualties before helping to bring down a large enemy block.

Flanking adds +4 combat res at best, skinks will take more casualties than back than any other combat unit in the game ('cept zombies) So Skinks will only be good flankers for cav or weak infantry.

Skinks woun't actually get the opportunity to flank cav often so that won't come up, and if you need skinks to help you break weak infantry with your saurus, or Krox or whatever, than something is so wrong that skinks won't help.

Sorry Spiney, I just think the T2 means that skinks will take so many casualties back that they won't help, or at least won't be worth the points.

[Malorian]

Well a big block of ranked skinks can still act as a nice stubborn tarpit.

Add a few krox in there and all of a sudden you have a tarpit with bite.

[Bac5665]

True, though I would think you'd want it to be at least 5x6 or so, if not 5x7 to guarantee that you out rank something.

But even then, skinks will die faster than anything they fight, so the tarpit will lose stubborn sooner than just about any other infantry, which is a problem.