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Thread: Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition

  1. #1
    Chapter Master Desert Rain's Avatar
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    Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition

    Now that we basically have confirmed rumours for most of the new rulebook and test games are being held in the GW stores I think that it's time to start a new tactica thread for the High Elves.

    As we all know 8th edition brings a lot of changes, and some of them benefit us, some of them don't.

    Here are some of my thoughts about the new rules and how they might effect our units.

    First of all the Sea Guard gets a significant bonus. They will fight in an extra rank, for a total of 4, or even 5 if you have enough models for a horde unit. They will also be able to fire in several ranks, thus negating one of their biggest downsides in 7th edition.
    With the new requirement for a minimum 25% in core units they also help us out since they are more expensive than the Spearmen and the Archers.

    If you want to go for the benefits of the horde rule Spearmen might be the better choice since they are our cheapest troops. It still remains to be seen if it is worth it though. Archers get a boos with the shoot in 2 ranks rumour since you can field units of 10 without them taking up a lot of space, thus giving you a tighter deployment which is good.

    Of our elite infantry units it seems that Phoenix Guards are getting the biggest boost. We have, as you all know, ASF on all our units and it seems that if you have both ASF and higher initiative you will get to re-roll to hit rolls. Since Phoenix Guards have I6 they will almost always get those re-rolls. They also get to double their number of attacks thanks to the fighting in 2 ranks rumour, thus making them much better at killing stuff than they are now.
    Their 4+ ward save also makes them less vulnerable to the high amount of return attacks that will come their way.

    Both Swordmasters and White Lions will get a significant boost as well, Swordmasters will be able to put out an insane amount of attacks. Unfortunately this comes with a big downside, since the opponent almost always gets to strike back at us, and our fragile but expensive Swordmasters and White Lions doesn't like that very much.

    Since it seems that you need to have a rank in your unit to cancel out the opponents ranks if you hit them in the flank our cavalry units gets a lot more expensive if we want to do that. This might lead to some people starting to use Silver Helms in this role since they are cheaper to buy ranks to.

    Chariots, and especially the Lion Chariot seems pretty tempting in the new edition as well. With S7 auto kills gone you can play them a bit more boldly if the enemy has access to such high strength weaponry in his army. The impact hits, and possible "crush them" attacks will help us deal with large enemy blocks quickly which I believe that we need to do in order to not get bogged down in long wars of attrition which we will be hard pressed to win.

    Shadow Warriors and Reavers doesn't seem that tempting to me, with skirmishers being nerfed out Shadow Warriors seems even poorer than they are today. Reavers seems to get a free 12" move at the start of the game so perhaps they can be useful. The viability of these 2 units are something I'm uncertain of at the moment.

    Great Eagles and Repeater Bolt Throwers are as good as they've ever been. A slight nerf in the Eagles ability to march block doesn't make them any less worthwhile to take.

    This is all for now, I'll write my thoughts about characters and magic later.
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    Re: Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition

    None of this change the fact that to make a significant impact, you need a substantial investment in the number of models you have per unit.

    Elves simply don't have the bodies (aka PPM) to support such large scale affairs. If I don't see a points reduction for our units, I don't see large units of Seaguard and Spears working out too well. Especially if Stone Throwers and the like no longer need guess ranges and partial hits are gone.
    Last edited by LKHERO; 28-05-2010 at 09:03.

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    Chapter Master Desert Rain's Avatar
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    Re: Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition

    You're absolutely right about that, and that is in my opinion our biggest problem with the new edition. Unless we put up to 1/3 of our army in one unit we can't get the major boosts. I don't think that we'll get any significant army changes until we get a new book, so until then we just have to try to minimize that disadvantage. For Sea Guards I'm currently thinking about 2 units of 21 with full command as my core, but that's only if I like the Sea Guards in the starter set. Otherwise I'll go with spears and archers instead.
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  4. #4

    Re: Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition

    Against any "horde" unit, 14 Swordmasters will kill 13.5 of the little bastards. If they have spears and still have 30 models left they'll kill 5 of us. 9 Swordmasters will kill 10 of them. They won't have 30 models left. And we'll put a chariot in their face.

    Stop worrying.

    Chariots are no longer auto-pop. And fear is +1CR (and possibly WS1). Tasty.

    Our Archmages can get up to +6 (yes, plus SIX) to dispel. And choose their lores.

    Stop worrying.

    Our eagles can now charge 28" into those annoying warmachines.

    Our Pheonix Guard are now buffed and can get up to 2+ Ward versus magic.

    Stop worrying.

    High Elves are not a horde army, or a monster army, or even a skirimisher army. Nothing changes for us, excpet marginally more core (and lets be fair, our core just got a major boost, including cheap new models in the starter set).

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    Re: Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition

    I'm not believing a single thing till I have the book in my hands, or until stores get the rulebook. Everything you said above are general changes that applies practically every army with EQ unit stats. Doesn't change the fact that we pay 9 point spears, 13 point LSG and 15 point elite infantry.

    This 8th Ed. is all about making armies bigger and a heavier emphasis on core. We can afford neither.

    I'm looking at games at 2K points in 8th instead of 2250. Easier to figure out points with percentages for everyone.

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    Re: Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition

    All speculation ofcourse at the moment, BUT!

    Rare 25%, I swear I read a rule that stated HE don't abide by the 'max 3 same special/max2 same rare' as they are an 'elite' army, could be wrong but I swear I saw this, opens you up to take (at 3k, which MAY become the norm) 7 bolt throwers . . . I'm not suggesting you should, but you could.

    Re chariots, I may be reading these rumours incorrectly, but I see them getting worse. 9inch basic move allows them a charge of 9+the highest two of three dice, more importantly, not a guaranteed charge. Secondly, if the unit has more ranks than you (?) they are stubborn, so your chariots are stuck in a protracted fight. Again, I could be wrong with this.

    What I do know is that in my 12k high elf army in 7th ed I only have enough core to make 25% in a 6k game, I'm not painting another 100 spearmen!
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    Re: Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Rain View Post

    Here are some of my thoughts about the new rules and how they might effect our units.

    First of all the Sea Guard gets a significant bonus. They will fight in an extra rank, for a total of 4, or even 5 if you have enough models for a horde unit. They will also be able to fire in several ranks, thus negating one of their biggest downsides in 7th edition.
    With the new requirement for a minimum 25% in core units they also help us out since they are more expensive than the Spearmen and the Archers.

    If you want to go for the benefits of the horde rule Spearmen might be the better choice since they are our cheapest troops. It still remains to be seen if it is worth it though. Archers get a boos with the shoot in 2 ranks rumour since you can field units of 10 without them taking up a lot of space, thus giving you a tighter deployment which is good.

    I think Horde rule is not for us as I'd prefer more ranks so I have stubborn troops. Whilst stepping up hurts more than it helps, high elf spearmen can hold their own against any equivalent priced troops.

    Of our elite infantry units it seems that Phoenix Guards are getting the biggest boost. We have, as you all know, ASF on all our units and it seems that if you have both ASF and higher initiative you will get to re-roll to hit rolls. Since Phoenix Guards have I6 they will almost always get those re-rolls. They also get to double their number of attacks thanks to the fighting in 2 ranks rumour, thus making them much better at killing stuff than they are now.Their 4+ ward save also makes them less vulnerable to the high amount of return attacks that will come their way.

    Completely agree. You forgot that fear is now better for Phoenix guard since the fact they don't outnumber the enemy matters not (I think) - being 5s to be hit sometimes is nice protection too!

    Both Swordmasters and White Lions will get a significant boost as well, Swordmasters will be able to put out an insane amount of attacks. Unfortunately this comes with a big downside, since the opponent almost always gets to strike back at us, and our fragile but expensive Swordmasters and White Lions doesn't like that very much.

    Swordmasters only get +1 attack per extra rank. I think these guys are still best in small units, acting more as elven detachments. White lions meanwhile have the smae role they always did - to stare down cavalry. They can safely do this in units of 14 now, and are the best choice bar none to guard a flank.

    Since it seems that you need to have a rank in your unit to cancel out the opponents ranks if you hit them in the flank our cavalry units gets a lot more expensive if we want to do that. This might lead to some people starting to use Silver Helms in this role since they are cheaper to buy ranks to.

    With the reroll to hit our cavalry got a major boost. 12 man units of silver helms are a distinct possibility, as are 6 man dragon princes (no point having a 2nd ranks with only +1 attack per model).

    Chariots, and especially the Lion Chariot seems pretty tempting in the new edition as well. With S7 auto kills gone you can play them a bit more boldly if the enemy has access to such high strength weaponry in his army. The impact hits, and possible "crush them" attacks will help us deal with large enemy blocks quickly which I believe that we need to do in order to not get bogged down in long wars of attrition which we will be hard pressed to win.

    Also the % change means that tiranoc chariots don't take up a valuable slot. I think my army will definatly have 3 of these, as they have a small footprint, low cost, and can easily support charges frmo cavalry or infantry

    Shadow Warriors and Reavers doesn't seem that tempting to me, with skirmishers being nerfed out Shadow Warriors seems even poorer than they are today. Reavers seems to get a free 12" move at the start of the game so perhaps they can be useful. The viability of these 2 units are something I'm uncertain of at the moment.

    Agreed. The eagle looks better as a war machine hunter and silver helms are better at threatening flanks. But until we see scenario rules I'll reserve full judgement

    Great Eagles and Repeater Bolt Throwers are as good as they've ever been. A slight nerf in the Eagles ability to march block doesn't make them any less worthwhile to take.

    Repeater bolt throwers were the worst war machine apart from the mortar. Now they're the worst war machine period. The only argument for taking one over an archer unit (which at least filled out core)was the smaller footprint, and now fire in ranks removes that from consideration. I just can't see what they can do that something else in the army can't do better - their average of 2 wounds per turn (assuming T3 enemies with little armour) compared to, say, a cannon killing a chariot or equivalent most turns (at least, mine do) is atrocious. Slap them down to 65 or make the multiple shots penetrate ranks and ignore armour. Until then, its too weak.

    Eagles lose marchblocking but gain crush them, which will make a difference in taking on war machines. Their charge range also increased on average.


    This is all for now, I'll write my thoughts about characters and magic later.
    I don't buy that 8th edition makes armies bigger. Units maybe, but not armies.

    As to emphasis on core, I can't think of many armies I field that don't have 25%. At 2500 points, I have to take 2 core - spearmen my preference. 2 units with full command cost me 500 points give or take (one has a magic banner). So all I need for my 25% is to throw in an archer unit or upgrade to sea guard.

    And my other armies require no changes to meet the 25% core.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urgat View Post
    That would be "epic" if ethereal meant invisible. In about the same number of letters, and rhyming, I'll give you a "it's just idiotic" instead. Smart is smart when it's smart, if not, it's not.
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  8. #8
    Chapter Master Desert Rain's Avatar
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    Re: Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition

    This whole thread is just speculation until July 10. However, most things in the rumours are pretty much certain. We don't know which ones but in general I believe that we have a pretty good picture of what 8th edition is going to be like. It is a theoretical picture, yes but it is possible to make educated guesses from the rumours that we have and discuss their impact on our army based on them.

    So in order to get some discussion, based on the rumours, what do you think that you will take for your characters?
    Since we have 25% on Lords and 25% on Heroes there are plenty of options.
    Do you take a L.4 and some fighty characters or a couple of L.2s and some fighters?
    Perhaps the best solution for us, since our troops are so expensive, is to take a minimalist approach to characters and spend the rest of our points on troops. Perhaps a BSB and a L.3 or L.4 mage will be enough in games of about 2000 points, thus giving us plenty of much needed points to spend on our units.
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    Re: Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition

    What are the exact percentages again?

    Is it 25% for both Lord and Hero choices or do you get 50% total for 25% in each? I'm a little confused. I'm also a little confused on all the threads and posts saying that High Elves ignore the percentages rule.

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    Re: Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition

    It's 25% each.. Apparently HE doesn't ignore the percentages (which would be rather silly), but instead the spam restrictions.
    So where all other armies are bound by max 3 same special and max 2 same rare, HE are not.

    I'm thinking 10 eagles...
    Because eagles are cool.

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    Re: Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Rain View Post

    So in order to get some discussion, based on the rumours, what do you think that you will take for your characters?
    Since we have 25% on Lords and 25% on Heroes there are plenty of options.
    Do you take a L.4 and some fighty characters or a couple of L.2s and some fighters?
    Perhaps the best solution for us, since our troops are so expensive, is to take a minimalist approach to characters and spend the rest of our points on troops. Perhaps a BSB and a L.3 or L.4 mage will be enough in games of about 2000 points, thus giving us plenty of much needed points to spend on our units.
    I agree. I think the aim should be to focus on making the characters survive and work on doing what they can to augment the army. Though you are asking if we should take wizards and fighty characters or a wizard and some fighty characters - I think either could work

    Seriously, L4 plus BSB plus possible commander, or prince plus 2 level 2s plus possible BSB is how I'd probably go. Or radiant gem prince plus 1 level 2 plus bsb to save even more points.

    If special characters are your thing I could see Eltharion, with a level 2 and commander being good at 2500.

    I think the prince gains a real boost with rerolling to hits. With KB now working vs ogre sized models, white sword, armour of caledor, talisman of saphery could be a nice combo.

    I also think the annulian crystal got better. With most armies getting on average +3 or so dice to you in their magic phase, this turns it to a +1, and the high elf bonus to dispel on top makes it fairly comfortable to control enemy magic.
    Last edited by Von Wibble; 30-05-2010 at 11:03.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urgat View Post
    That would be "epic" if ethereal meant invisible. In about the same number of letters, and rhyming, I'll give you a "it's just idiotic" instead. Smart is smart when it's smart, if not, it's not.
    Mmh. I'm sure I've just earned my place in History with that sentence.

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    Chapter Master Desert Rain's Avatar
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    Re: Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Von Wibble View Post
    Though you are asking if we should take wizards and fighty characters or a wizard and some fighty characters - I think either could work
    Lol, I didn't realise that

    More specifically, when it comes to magic do you think that we will benefit the most from a single L.4 or a couple of L.2s?

    The single one has a bit more casting power, but he is very vulnerable to the new miscast system, and if we loose him we lose the magic phase. If you take 2 L.2s you lose some power, but in return you can have 2 lores instead of one, 2 arcane items instead of 1 and if one of them blows up you can still keep casting with the other one.
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    Re: Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition

    2 Level 2s, you get to share more power dice if I read the rules correctly. It also lacks the 'eggs in basket' problem.

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    Re: Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition

    Well, there are a lot of variables in comparing a level 4 with 2 level 2s so here we go...

    Advantages of level 4

    - Extra +2 to cast
    - Extra +2 to dispel (imo these two are huge)
    - Easier to protect (after all, there is only 1 Folariath's Robe...)
    - More flexibility in what hero options are available
    - 10 points cheaper (woot!)

    Advantages of 2 level 2s

    - Access to 2 Arcane Items (very important imo)
    - Can have 2 lores, or repeat a base spell twice
    - A miscast won't hurt quite so badly
    - Failing a spell on a natural roll of 1 or 2 only prevents 1 of them from any more casting
    - 2 targets for the enemy to neutralise
    - Average 1 extra power dice per game (from channelling)
    - More points to spend on princes

    I really think it comes down to player preference. At the moment I could completely understand reasons for either. What I really like about the new magic system is that it appears a mage council is not a viable option for an army. Well done to GW for that call.
    668 - the neighbour of the beast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urgat View Post
    That would be "epic" if ethereal meant invisible. In about the same number of letters, and rhyming, I'll give you a "it's just idiotic" instead. Smart is smart when it's smart, if not, it's not.
    Mmh. I'm sure I've just earned my place in History with that sentence.

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    Re: Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition

    Or you could even go with 2 level 3s.
    Sure, you'll only get one cheap item for each, but I'm not entirely sure any more than that is even necessary.
    Ofcourse, this would be more expensive than a single 4 or two 2s... But I'm thinking this might be a pretty interesting option regardless.

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    Re: Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition

    Well, 2 L3s compared to 2 L2s get +1 to cast and dispel and an extra spell each, but I think the cost increase doesn't justify it myself. I'd rather just upgrade one of the level 2s to a level 4.

    Whilst compared to a level 4 its more spells and less eggs in one basket, but more expensive and worse at casting and dispelling.

    I certainly would not advise this but each to his own.
    668 - the neighbour of the beast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urgat View Post
    That would be "epic" if ethereal meant invisible. In about the same number of letters, and rhyming, I'll give you a "it's just idiotic" instead. Smart is smart when it's smart, if not, it's not.
    Mmh. I'm sure I've just earned my place in History with that sentence.

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    Re: Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition

    How viable, do you suspect, a completely no-magic HE army would be? I've recently played a few no-magic games with 7th ed rules and I quite enjoyed having the extra hitting power and not having to worry and plan for magic.

    Will this be viable in 8th ed more so than now?

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    Re: Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition

    Quote Originally Posted by King_Pash View Post
    How viable, do you suspect, a completely no-magic HE army would be? I've recently played a few no-magic games with 7th ed rules and I quite enjoyed having the extra hitting power and not having to worry and plan for magic.

    Will this be viable in 8th ed more so than now?
    The main problem with no magic at all is that you have all those power dice each turn that you can't use at all. Even a single L.1 with a silver wand would make a basic magic phase sine he is cheap, for a HE, and you can use all the dice that you get.
    Since you get more DD in 8th I'd say that no magic is more viable than in 7th. You'd want to make use of banner of the world dragon and our various MR items though.
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    Re: Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition

    I'm intrigued to what people think regarding the supposed striking in Initiative order rumour. This could limit the current prowess of the Star Dragon build. No bad thing, IMHO, but a bit of a worrisome thought for those of us who like to use him as a full-on regiment-breaking piece of nastiness.
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    Re: Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Rain View Post

    First of all the Sea Guard gets a significant bonus. They will fight in an extra rank, for a total of 4, or even 5 if you have enough models for a horde unit.
    This caught my attention as I am putting together enough LSG to do this, but how would it do? I toyed around with some ideas and came up with this:


    NOTE: I'm going to use two thirty man units in regular play, this would just be for fun(if the rumors are true, that is)


    BSB- 184
    ~Banner of the World Dragon
    ~Great Weapon
    ~Dragon Armor
    **Protects from magic, a second banner, and adds some killing power

    Noble- 144
    ~Amulet of Light
    ~Sacred Incense
    ~Great Weapon
    ~Dragon Armor
    **Makes all attacks magical, -1 to hit so gives some protection from shooting, add some killing power

    Lothern Sea Guard(58)- 784
    ~Banner of Ellyrion
    ~Standard Bearer
    ~Musician
    ~Shields
    **The opponent would have to kill 10 before it lost any attacks. Salvo fire in four ranks so 38 shot(Nobles don't have bows), and attacks with 48 ASF magical attacks.


    Any thoughts on how to make this either more outlandish or effective?
    Last edited by Red_Lep; 01-06-2010 at 19:24.
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