Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition

[Treadhead_1st]

I'm playing 2500 point games at the moment, but I'm having some trouble with the Mages.

I typically take a Level 4 Archmage, usually with only minimalistic gear (Dispel Scroll + Ward; Annulian Crystal, that sort of thing - pretty much under 50pts of magic items) because I find having more troops works better for me - 120-130 is my typical model count, and also because I take a Prince so cannot take a fully-tricked-out Archmage as well within the points limit. However, lately I've been finding my units are a little bit more vulnerable than I would like, and I'm trying to scare up some points from a pretty full list - and really the only thing that stands out is my Archmage.

I have often seen it said that the Level 4 is one of the key aspects of Warhammer, regardless of race, but doubly-so for the High Elves. Yet a Level 3 gets nearly the same bonuses, and with a Silver Wand has just as many spells to choose from, or for a couple of points less than the full Level 4 can choose exactly which 3 they want. Given how limited Power Dice are in 8th Edition I don't see a Level 3 as too much of a drawback. But then I got to thinking - how about a Level 2? It is much cheaper however they are only half as effective. But I have found I typically only end up casting 3-4 Spells a turn anyway due to Power Dice limits, so being able to cast 2 (naturally) or 3 (Silver Wand/High Magic) isn't too much of a change there - the slight reduction in Power Dice used in total means you have one or two left (comparatively) to make up for the loss of casting bonuses.

Previously I have always thought that Level 3 is as low as I would go - a slight shaving of points saved for still having a decent enough range of spells, casting/dispelling bonuses, and still has access to the full array of magical gear. Yet having seen the new Empire rules, and looking over the various 8th Edition Army Books, insane Magic defence seems to be on the out; likewise so does insane magical offence (the likes of Tzeentch and Dwarf abilities are simply unachievable for most recent books). So could this not make the Level 2 more viable? Having less defence to contend with, and less offensive Magic sent their way is something of a change. Naturally, you could make the case that this makes a Level 4 Archmage all the more potent still - but it is a hefty chunk of points!

So, do you think that the apparent trend away from Magic-bonuses in the 8th Edition books alters the way we should view our character selection, or do you think the changes are reinforcing the "take-it-or-lose" attitude towards the Level 4 that I have seen plenty of online?

[Brewmaster_D]

Hey Treadhead,

I definitely think you're right, as things are progressing the insane magic defenses are disappearing. However, I don't think we're quite there yet. We still have lists out there like Daemons and Dwarves that will shut a level 2 down entirely.

However.

Check out this guy's army blog: Curu Olannon's Vindicators. His list features a Star Dragon and a single level 2 mage, which flies in the face of pretty much everything the internet would tell you can work, and has been on a tear recently. There's plenty of information in there about what life is like with just a level 2.

Happy reading!

D

[Thruster]

I'm wondering whether to go with White Lion horde or Phoenix Guard Horde, what do you guys prefer so far?

[Francis]

I think that a lvl2 on his own is viable in many cases but if you choose to do this you should make sure to pick a lore with low casting values so he can get some of his spells off easily, high magic is excellent on lvl 2s for example.

Haven't tried out the PG horde but the WL horde is a beast when it hits.

[slingersam]

I think the most efficient magic defense in the game is actually a lvl 2 wizard with annulian crystal. for 175pts we get a lvl 3 +2dispel dice (+1 for us and -1 for them). Take high magic and now you also have drain magic

[cornonthecob]

What units are good ?

[Trains_Get_Robbed]

There's good H.E units?

Joking aside, that's a very disparaging question, it depends on the type of games your playing, magic your considering/list entities, as well as play style.

Generally P.G/W.L/S.M and G.E's with Archers and minimalistic characters are deemed "good" affordable choices.

[Col. Dash]

OK, new to HE, trolled HE forums for awhile. I do not play competitively due to not having a lot of time so I enjoy using models I like. While eventually I plan on upgrading to a dragon lord, for the time being, I want a Griffon lord. I am well aware they are not too competitive. However, I want to use one. What is the best general build for one? Or should I just use Etherion the Grim?
Since I have the lord model, whats a good general dragon lord build?

[Francis]

@Dash. In my opinion the best Griffon lord build is as follows: Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Vambraces of Defence og Talisman of Loec. One other build I know is used is one in which the prince carries the Radiant Gem of Hoeth. This allows the prince to give both himself and the griff a 5+ regen save and the ability to restore lost wounds to the griffon. Personally I use my Griffon Prince as an Eagle Prince these days.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

I'm wondering whether to go with White Lion horde or Phoenix Guard Horde, what do you guys prefer so far?

Not sure how relevant this is but I've been on the receiving end of a WL horde a couple of times and it wasn't pretty. Get your champion the Other Trickster's Shard, get them into the fray asap and without delay and it just deletes units. You don't even have to be careful about flank charges. Okay, it drastically reduces the damage output and you might lose the combat with just 3 attacks to the side but being stubborn on top means it is less dangerous than for other units.

[Doommasters]

Does anyone have any advice on how to use the sub optimal Dragon Mage or can point me to another thread that discusses it? Basically I want to build a HE army that runs a prince on star dragon supported by a Dragon Mage.

Thanks

[cornonthecob]

Whats the best lore for High Elves mages ?

I'd rather not go shadow or life as they are rather obvious.

[Trains_Get_Robbed]

^ That's actually incorrect. The most commonly used lore amongst tournament players, and competitive metas (some areas of the U.S not included due to no comp) is Light, with Shadow being second.

Frankly, most tournament players would have to agree that Life magic without Teclis or the BoH is horrible and even with one of the later it still isn't good. Teclis's best lore is Shadow, and the BoH isn't suited to the Lore of Life because the caster can't be lore master, and essentially limits you into playing a "one combat at a time play style" to properly buff and protect all your units to give you a shot at winning big or even winning in general.

If you can make Lore of Life work, either one of three reasons: your gaming group isn't truley competitive, you've mastered the aforementioned style of play or lastly you've come up with a unique roundabout way of making LoL a work ie; a support lore or something of that nature.

If you want to buck trend go for H.E magic, and force huge trickle down magic phases with multiple castings of Vauls and Shield. Something like:

A.M Lvl 4 (High): F.R, ToS, Scroll

Mage Lvl 2 (High): Seerstaff, AoL (for your archers to pick off ethereals)

Mage Lvl 1/2 (Heavens/Beasts/Shadow): A.C (for the sig spell)

Casting becomes hilariously awesome as your dropping double Flames/Vauls and a Flames/Vauls (9 P.D) or a bunch of 2 dicers.

Edit: Doomaster no runs Dragonmages even for fluff, they suck. Hell, when the Swedish comp system gives you points for taking it. . . . Your better off with some hero nobles to take the pressure off. Though, this being said. . .

If you REALLY HAVE TO RUN ONE, take Folarith's Robes and a Dragon Bane Gem. This will protect the rider from cannonballs, the Dragon. . . not so much. If the D.M gets into combat, you better have eliminated any magic weapons in the unit -magical attacks and he's screwed when he gets challenged. Heavens/Light magic may be the only way to keep the Dragon alive, and even still, it's rather impossible to even build a mini coven with the D.M eating into your Hero slot, especially when your need H.E magic to eliminate magic weapons. Catch 22, and in the end your D.M normally ends up screwed.

[Tarian]

^ That's actually incorrect. The most commonly used lore amongst tournament players, and competitive metas (some areas of the U.S not included due to no comp) is Light, with Shadow being second.

Frankly, most tournament players would have to agree that Life magic without Teclis or the BoH is horrible and even with one of the later it still isn't good. Teclis's best lore is Shadow, and the BoH isn't suited to the Lore of Life because the caster can't be lore master, and essentially limits you into playing a "one combat at a time play style" to properly buff and protect all your units to give you a shot at winning big or even winning in general.

If you can make Lore of Life work, either one of three reasons: your gaming group isn't truley competitive, you've mastered the aforementioned style of play or lastly you've come up with a unique roundabout way of making LoL a work ie; a support lore or something of that nature.

If you want to buck trend go for H.E magic, and force huge trickle down magic phases with multiple castings of Vauls and Shield. Something like:

A.M Lvl 4 (High): F.R, ToS, Scroll

Mage Lvl 2 (High): Seerstaff, AoL (for your archers to pick off ethereals)

Mage Lvl 1/2 (Heavens/Beasts/Shadow): A.C (for the sig spell)

Casting becomes hilariously awesome as your dropping double Flames/Vauls and a Flames/Vauls (9 P.D) or a bunch of 2 dicers.

Edit: Doomaster no runs Dragonmages even for fluff, they suck. Hell, when the Swedish comp system gives you points for taking it. . . . Your better off with some hero nobles to take the pressure off. Though, this being said. . .

If you REALLY HAVE TO RUN ONE, take Folarith's Robes and a Dragon Bane Gem. This will protect the rider from cannonballs, the Dragon. . . not so much. If the D.M gets into combat, you better have eliminated any magic weapons in the unit -magical attacks and he's screwed when he gets challenged. Heavens/Light magic may be the only way to keep the Dragon alive, and even still, it's rather impossible to even build a mini coven with the D.M eating into your Hero slot, especially when your need H.E magic to eliminate magic weapons. Catch 22, and in the end your D.M normally ends up screwed.

Unfortunately, Forlaith's Robe is on foot only, so no mounted ethereal.

I run lvl 4 Life with Seer Staff and Level 2 Shadow with Silver Wand at lower point values, and it works alright. If I can't take the 2nd mage though, I almost never take Life solo.

[Rillix]

Unfortunately taking both the seer staff and silver wand you have no room for a dispel scroll, which is an auto choice for a competitive list.

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[ring87]

Shadow Lore helps to make Spears and Archers work. Miasma, Pit, Enfeebling, Withering, and of course Mind Razor are what I go for. I have use both the Light coven and Life Lore at GTs and always missed Lore of Shadows. Smoke and Mirrors can also be cool. I also found I Folarith's Robes and Talisman Of Saphery+Scroll on my Archmage work well. I put him In my White Lion horde. Mage bunkers are liabilities.

At most I would take an additional Lvl 1 with the Crystal.

High Elves are not really tournamant competitive at the moment.

[Trains_Get_Robbed]

Unfortunately, Forlaith's Robe is on foot only, so no mounted ethereal.

I run lvl 4 Life with Seer Staff and Level 2 Shadow with Silver Wand at lower point values, and it works alright. If I can't take the 2nd mage though, I almost never take Life solo.

-__- Duh. Haha totally forgot, well, then I guess I wouldn't run a Dragon Mage without a +4 ward as that's probably the best defense. However as I prior mentioned briefly there really isn't a need to take one unless your a masochist or a die hard fluff player; they are horrible.

I agree with those that have echoed before myself that H.E aren't really tournament competitive at the moment, though it does depend on the tourney. Tourney's that are 3k I would argue actual give H.E's much more space and tools to toolbox with, also tournaments that allow Teclis give H.E's a chance as well. Shadow seemingly is the best lore for H.E's, if only because it makes all your units useful not just the special choices. ARCHERS KILLING SOMETHING? Whaaat?

[ScItRiX]

I just wanted to get some other points of view. I'm going into a 2200 tournament in a few weeks. The current plan is to either take a level 4 with shadow and a support level 2 (with a tbd lore) or a level 4 light with 2 supporting levels 2 with light. Note: I can't take teclis or Book, or this wouldn't even be a question.

Right now i'm running a 30 man sword master horde with razor standard, full command, Bladelord has iron curse Icon, with the BSB who has the rampager standard. Any suggestions for bad match ups vs. good match ups. I'm fairly certain a gunline would trounce it but otherwise any potential problems I could run into?

[Trains_Get_Robbed]

Depends on your lore. If no Book, or Teclis, I frankly wouldn't go, I love playing semi-handicapped -in fun games with F.R's and screwing around with lores that is, but at a tournament that's a different story.

Your best bet since you can't use either is to run a Lore of Light Coven. Your matchups against gunlines aren't as bad as you think, if you bubble phas at least once a turn the first two turns of the game, your set to go. Swordmasters aren't bad, but if you end up using LoL Coven, you most likely will want to split them up in two units of 14, or perhaps three units of 10 to further maximize your ability to optimally use Bironas Timewarp. If you have W.L's I would look into them over Swordies, as at least your get a something against shooting. Lastly, from what you've provided the Rampager Standard is fairly useless on your BsB, your going to want him alive hence, take some protection a +2 at minimum since no one else is using the AoC.

With Lore of Light, bad matchups include armies that are heavily infantry with fast moving chaff/great interdicting chaff such as Beastmen or Skaven, or magic heavy armies Lizardmen will cause you some problems, so be on the look out. If your main Lvl 4 is hard pressed to cast, trickle down theory gets hindered, while razor gors, or scouting gutter runners can be a problem for the mage bunker(s).

I have tested a Shadow/High trickle down recently, but it's far from tournament ready or generally tested to even advocate using. Thus, good luck with the Coven, make Brewmaster and crew proud.

[MR. GRUMPY]

Hm Life magic synergies very well with my silver helm character delivery system and swordmasters. And I know plenty of other people use both life and shadow (Without teclic or boh) with reasonable success for a mid-tier army so not quite sure what Trains_Get_Robbed is on about.

And while I have no tournament experience with high elves yet all of my gaming group somehow managed to stack up on all the filth over the years. I play skaven, lizardmen, chaos, daemons, dark elves and vampire counts most regularly. Only thing I'm still blessed from is the joyful ogre lists I see people grumbling about.