Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition

[Red_Lep]

Supposedly template weapons can be used once per game in close combat for 2d6 hits.

Ah, didn't know that. Thanks!

[Zoned]

@ Tyrion1

You can make a character who is 90% as good for about 200pts less. I'd rather have the two extra Bolt Thorwers, thank you very much.

[Tyrion1]

Zoned

I would invite you to try. I think you will see that the character you create would not be an everything killer nor would he be able to be used as flexibly as Tyrion.

[King_Pash]

@ Tyrion1

You can make a character who is 90% as good for about 200pts less. I'd rather have the two extra Bolt Thorwers, thank you very much.

I'm sorry but I think this may be a slight exaggeration. What, a Prince with a 2+/5+ save and NO WEAPON? I don't think so..

[Von Wibble]

Since a lot of people are discussing the merits of swordmasters, I think its time to run a few calculations comparing the 3 elites.

We shall go for units of 14 in 2 ranks of 7. This provides a lot of attacks, whilst still keeping the units at a comfortable price. For simplicity we shall assume banner and musician but no champion in each unit.

Facing them we shall first have a horde style unit - 40 Orc Boyz with light armour and shields, in ranks of 6 (first score) and 10 (second scores, though note only 8 are in btb). Note these cost slightly more points. Again no champion. All numbers are rounded to nearest whole number, but if .5s are repeated they round down the 2nd time. Against PG assume orcs fail fear check in rounds 2, 5, 8, etc

Round 1 SM 10, Orcs 3, 7
Round 2 SM 9, 7 Orcs 3, 4
Round 3 SM 7, 3 Orcs 2, 4 If in horde formation SMs wiped out
Round 4 SM 6 Orcs 2 Orcs not stubborn and break, but only 4 SMs left

Round 1 WL 9, Orcs 4, 8
Round 2 WL 6, 4 Orcs 3, 5
Round 3 WL 4, 1 Orcs 2, 5 WLs wiped out by horde orcs
Round 4 WL 3 Orcs 3
Round 5 WL 1 Orcs 2 WLs wiped out by non horde orcs.

Round 1 PG 4 Orcs 2, 4 PG break check against horde at Ld 6
Round 2 PG 4, 3 Orcs 1, 2 PG break check against horde at Ld 7
Round 3 PG 3, 2 Orcs 2, 4 PG break check against horde at Ld 4 - run
Round 4 PG 3 Orcs 2
Round 5 PG 2 Orcs 1
Round 6 PG 2 Orcs 2
Round 7 PG 1 Orcs 2 PG break check at Ld 6
Round 8 PG 0 Orcs 1 PG break check Ld 6
Round 9 PG 1 Orcs 1 PG wiped out.

Conclusion, against orc boyz all the elites do badly, with only swordmasters winning out at all, with crippling casualties. However, if you can use the high elf army well to mitigate stubborn then the elites are capable of a 1 shot kill, whilst the horde troops cannot do this.

[Desert Rain]

Stubborn goes away if you hit them in the flank right? That makes them extremely important to us since we really can't afford the casualties that we're going to take otherwise.

[FuzzyOrb]

Stubborn goes away if you hit them in the flank right?

I'm afraid that's not the case. All you can do from a flak is negating ranks (needing that one extra rank of yours).

[LKHERO]

Yeah, it is indeed a str 4 breath attack meaning 1 time per games he can let fly his 4 re-rollable str 7 ws 9 I10 attacks plus d6 stomp plus 2d6 str4 breath weapon attacks = very sad unit.

Tyrion is good.. but not great.
You pay for what he can do, and the fact that he's on a monster base keeps him out of my army.

Maybe one of these days he'll go on a smaller base. Until then, he's benched.

[Arkh]

From my experience with High Elves, swordmasters are just not the way to go. Yes, they are fantastic IF your opponent allows frontal confrontation with them. However.... They will take every single enemy ranged unit + magic missile to the face. This is probably just a problem with my particular play group, being that 2 of them play Wood Elves religiously.

I can't believe the HE Special Characters are even under discussion... Every single one of them are superior to what can be built by trying to equip a vanilla lord or hero. For that reason, my local group does not permit the use of special characters.

[Von Wibble]

I'm afraid that's not the case. All you can do from a flak is negating ranks (needing that one extra rank of yours).

Hitting them in the flank is still a necessity however, since it will often minimise how much damage you take in return.

Having now done the maths on a lot of combats with high elves, a similar pattern is emerging.

In the first 1-2 rounds, the high elves high damage output ensures that they win combats against equally pointed enemy troops, taking a bit of damage but winning through. Often the enemy is taking stubborn ld checks so you'll need some luck to break him.

In the next few rounds its more like a draw, as the high elf casualties impact on the number of attacks.

Once the combat is past 4 rounds, the high elves tend to start losing as they just don't have the numbers. They tend to get wiped out after 6-7 rounds.

Conclusion from this is that high elves absolutely need to break teh enemy early on, or they will die to attrition (this is a confirmation of what pretty much any elf player knows).

Therefore High elves need to use their support units to focus their abilities on parts of the battlefield where a breakthrough is achievable. Thinning out ranks with missile fire or throwing in a chariot or 2 is compulsory. Making use of the faster M rate is critical. Engaging the enemy only when you are confident they will have to take a non stubborn break check in round 1 or 2 is definately the way to play it.

As far as special characters go, I have to agree with LK hero on tyrion. I could afford a prince with a unit of dragon princes for the price of him. The only special character who I think is worth it is Eltharion (Teclis just got a little too risky).

[Deetwo]

I'm afraid that's not the case. All you can do from a flak is negating ranks (needing that one extra rank of yours).

Hmh, pretty sure that's not correct...

If you are only engaged to the front and have more ranks than the opponent, you are Stubborn. - Avian/Harry

[TheSanityAssassin]

Yeah. I'm almost certain that the flank will take away the Stubborn. If not, then Horde armies will be nearly impossible to deal with.

Also, do we know how the Step-Up works? Is it possible to kill enough of the foe that they don't step up to attack? IE if you attack a unit of 30 and kill 15 (3 ranks worth), do they still manage to get 2 ranks of attacks back?

As for Characters my thought is to take as many cheap Nobles with Great Weapons as possible...add some S6 punch to our spear formations...The big thing for me is figuring out how much magic is needed to survive in 8th, as I tend to always minimize my magic if possible.

Another thought....what about a cheap Noble on an unbarded steed with a unit of Reavers? Take advantage of the 12" charge to flank something on turn 1/get rid of enemy shooting on turn 1?

[Deetwo]

Also, do we know how the Step-Up works? Is it possible to kill enough of the foe that they don't step up to attack? IE if you attack a unit of 30 and kill 15 (3 ranks worth), do they still manage to get 2 ranks of attacks back?

That whole mechanic is removed and casualties are just removed from the back. So in your example the unit can still attack back with 2 ranks.

The big thing for me is figuring out how much magic is needed to survive in 8th, as I tend to always minimize my magic if possible.

Taking no magic can work fine, as dice generation isn't so dependant of wizards.
But it's a good idea to take atleast one wizard for the bonus to dispell rolls... Plus the new lores should be pretty sweet.

Take advantage of the 12" charge to flank something on turn 1/get rid of enemy shooting on turn 1?

Apparently you can't charge in the first turn if you use the pre-game movement.

[Desert Rain]

Apparently you can't charge in the first turn if you use the pre-game movement.

That's sad
But at least you can then use your 18" move to get into a good position for turn 2.
For magic I think that I'm going to go with a couple of L.2s. One with the Seerstaff and a scroll and the other with something else that I'm not really sure about at the moment.

[Deetwo]

But at least you can then use your 18" move to get into a good position for turn 2.

It's a 12" move for all fast cavalry by the way

[Von Wibble]

I think he means the regular 18" march move in turn 1. Combined with the 12" move that should set you up into a nice position.

Imo cheap nobles don't exist. Return attacks from enemy infantry will kill them in one round unless they are protected so its a waste of points. I think you are far better of investing in just a few well protected and powerful characters.

I know its unlikely, but if stubborn were to become a psychology type then standard of balance makes a lot of our problems go away.

Desert Rain - I would recommend the annulian crystal.

[ScytheSwathe]

My impression on magic is that a magic 'heavy' army will go with a lvl4 and a lvl2, or even a lvl4 and 2 lvl2s.

I think you cant duplicate spells, which becomes an issue if you have access to only 1 lore, so not an issue for high elves, but i still dont see a reason to take more that 8 levels of magic, because of dice generation. A heavy magic phase will want an archmage for the +4 to cast and dispel (+5 for high dispelling (+6 with the staff of sorcery!))

High elves are in a good place for magic, the potential to take from multiple lores, banner of extra dice, and potent dispelling should give us a lot of flexibility, and oodles of defence from the new superspells.

Equally taking no magic will be fine too, but considering the extra dispelling ability of elves, it might not be wise unless you have a particular plan for your hero slots.

Personally im going to try a level 4 and a level 2 backup for maximum magic, and a radiant gem BSB for minimum magic

[Desert Rain]

I know its unlikely, but if stubborn were to become a psychology type then standard of balance makes a lot of our problems go away.

You're right about that. I hope that's the case

Desert Rain - I would recommend the annulian crystal.

That's one of the items that I've been considering. Boosts our defence nicely.

I came to think about something else though. If a BSB gives you a re-roll against every psychology test within 12" won't that make Valour of Ages rather worthless since you always take a BSB? Only the flankers will benefit from it since they are outside of the BSB's bubble.

[Von Wibble]

Yes, I think Valour of ages would be lessened.

Its a special rule I commonly forget exists anyway however.

[Falkman]

Valour of Ages is a free fluff rule anyway, I doubt High Elves actually pay any points for it since it only works against one army, who in turn have a special rule against High Elves. The rules themselves are probably designed to be worth about the same (if they are or not is another thing).