Skaven in 8th Ed.

[horror]

So, Skaven in 8th ed. Obviously it's all guesswork right now but there's still much to consider....


Clanrats. Unit size? Spears or hand-weapons?

Are Assassins starting to look decent?

Does initiative 10 on the Vermin lord make him worth considering?

Is the Plague catapult looking like good value for money?

Are PCPs completely useless now?

What heroes are we likely to see used?

Are Storm Vermin going to be kicking ass, ripping up Chaos warriors and slaughtering Dragon Princes?!!

Will Slaves be breaking Dragon Ogres on the charge with +1 combat resolution?

[Magic Karl]

"Clan rats will be units of 30-40 with hand weapons" is the general concensus at the moment, but I don't know... one mortar shot could anhialate half a scaven army in theory, destroying one unit, panicing those around it? Who knows. I think they're still looking strong, this edition will be trying to give benifits to large infantry blocks and that's what skaven are designed for.

[Idle Scholar]

Clanrats, 30 strong with HW & S, though spears are perfectly viable vs T3 armies and deployed 5 * 6.

Slaves and large Giant Rat units the same as before. The 'Rat Pack' will have to upgrade to two Rat packs but that's still only 46 points for a M6 rank breaking drop.

Storm Vermin are probably going to be more attractive, but again only to taste as they'll still drop like flies to any decent unit.

Night Runners get a new potential role as a missile unit.

Rat Ogres get marginally better with the chance to restrain frenzy and the extra attack at the end of the phase. Their relatively high Int will help them out too.

PCB's get hit with the nurf bat, mostly because anything decent will attack before them and T4 is not a great save. Likewise Plague Priests suddenly look very vulnerable.

With the relaxation of the character slots the Assassin will get fielded more, but still comes with a high price tag.

Plague monks are still as situational as ever.

It's looking like our two greatest weapons; Static Combat Res and flank charges are both getting nurfed in favour of combat kills. But we've not had all the new rules yet so who knows.

[enygma7]

The assassin is expensive, but the other main problem with him is a lack of decent weapon options. Maybe there'll be something decent available to equip him with in the new and expanded common magic items list.

I think with no slot restrictions you are likely to see lots more chieftains and warlords fielded - keep the equipment costs down and their a very affordable buff to any infantry unit.

The increase in the importance of kills is a downside but if what I heard about having more ranks making you stubborn is true then a line of LD9 or 10 stubborn units with a battle standard isn't going anywhere for a bit giving your hard hitters, flanking units and toys time to work. I'm not worried about my skaven getting nerfed right now, quite the opposit, I'm hoping they don't become the new daemons!

[Idle Scholar]

I guess my concern is that the kills given away by a frontally engaged unit will overwhelm any attempt at a flank attack, but you're right in that it shouldn't be too hard to get that kind of tar pit style situation. In fact it's probably the intention of the designers.

[Walls]

Oddly enough, I think Skaven will be the best army in 8th, especially off the bat. Stubborn LD10 unless engaged on flanks, lots of bodies for hordes, shooting is more effective. Monsters and big guys are more effective. They really lose nothing except on regen'ing guys.

[DigitalDogParty]

I kinda thought Skaven were already pretty good in 7th, but 8th is looking decent. For Clanrats I'll probably run them in the hand weapon formation since the people I play against are pretty much heavy hitting infantry. I would only use spears against weaker or equivalent infantry armies. The Plagueclaw Catapult is looking real good right now as well since things like that can have a better chance to hit dead on. That is definitely going to kill my friend's Bretonnia...heh. Assassins look a little more useful now, but Dark Elf ones are still better. And now that you mention it, Plague Censer Bearers don't look real great right now. Can we say that Jezzail teams will pretty much be the same? Stormvermin can be kinda more useful, but in the general aspect they won't do that much more than before. You're just paying more for slightly better Clanrats, unfortunately.

[CauCaSus]

Oddly enough, I think Skaven will be the best army in 8th, especially off the bat. Stubborn LD10 unless engaged on flanks, lots of bodies for hordes, shooting is more effective. Monsters and big guys are more effective. They really lose nothing except on regen'ing guys.

Why? Because of cheap troops that makes it easier to become stubborn? Because less units ignore our ranks of we're flanked?

[lordmetroid]

Stubborn on Leadership 5 is really not all that good. Actually it is outright awful. Even though, I fear Skaven, the Warpfire Thrower will be very evil against the larger units that is rumored to become a reality on the battlefield.

[Icarus]

I've been thinking Clanrats in units of 40 with spears, as a 10-wide Horde. If we're going to have less CR and such, why not max out with a ton of attacks?

Such a unit is still only 220 points. Assuming it hits a 5-wide enemy unit, that's 7 rats in base-to-base contact. With Horde and Spears that is 21 attacks. Cast Death Frenzy on this unit and its 35 attacks (if I've understood everything right). I think that's pretty awesome.

Ok, its not going to beat up a super-elite unit, but neither is a regular-sized Clanrat unit. Against other basic core units I think this will do quite well, especially with slaves/giant rats etc hitting the flanks in support. Plus the whole theme of Skaven is a horde of rats, seems silly not to use the Horde rule.

[lordmetroid]

Nah, it is more than 220 points. You would want a weaponteam with that unit of clanrats so it is more like 300 points.

[Falkman]

Stubborn on Leadership 5 is really not all that good. Actually it is outright awful. Even though, I fear Skaven, the Warpfire Thrower will be very evil against the larger units that is rumored to become a reality on the battlefield.

Rumours have it that it's not proper Stubborn, you just don't apply negative modifiers to your break tests if you fight to the front and have more ranks than the enemy. So you'll be testing on LD10 pretty much all the time.

[Barry "the blade"]

I'm kinda bummed I spent time, and money on making a couple doomflayers. With an I of 3 they will be getting killed before they get to inflict any damage now. The 3+ save it gets will give it a chance sometimes, but not against anything that can hit hard.

[EndlessBug]

Nah, it is more than 220 points. You would want a weaponteam with that unit of clanrats so it is more like 300 points.

You might buy a grey seer for the magic phase, so it's really 600ish points...

the weaponteam, although is an upgrade works independantly of the unit. I don't think this point's very relevant.

The unit is still 220. And yea, pretty decent.

It'll be interesting to see the shift of power.

[CauCaSus]

Stubborn only stops you from using a character's Ld, not necessary any Ld bonuses from the unit itself (skaven have never had stubborn units so I guess we don't know?).

Why would the WFT be better? Our templates have always hit partial models

I'm kinda bummed I spent time, and money on making a couple doomflayers. With an I of 3 they will be getting killed before they get to inflict any damage now. The 3+ save it gets will give it a chance sometimes, but not against anything that can hit hard.

So impact hits are at I order as well now?

See, this is why its useless to discuss what we are going to do in 8th ed, its still totally up in the air depending on who you ask.

[Idle Scholar]

So the latest rumours state that it's probably only the models in B2B and those behind that get to attack, also horde might be a special rule that only some units will have.

Still, I've just run the numbers and 50 Skaven with spears at 10*5 facing 50 equivalent troops (say empire spearmen) both will cause about 7 kills a turn. However empire swordsmen will be returning the same amount of kills while saving one due to parry. However if we face something with T4 (and a 5+ armour save) we'll be doing 4.5 kills.

[Talos]

I love the doom wheel but with the rumour that it wont cancel out ranks do you think its still a good investment to have on your flanks ?

[Memnos]

With the changes to the edition, I predict Skaven will see the following:

1) fewer Ratling guns and more Plague Mortars.

- With bigger units of infantry, this is a no-brainer. You'll need massive amounts of kills and the template will be enough to get those massive amounts.

2) More Skaven Hamster balls - An artillery dice worth of hits will be important to evening out combat res. Unfortunately, LD5 Stubborn is not great. Sure, Skaven can afford to have bigger units, but their LD will not be worthwhile if they aren't winning combat.

3) More Vermin Lords - Stomp attack that grants d6 extra attacks, Initiative 10 and fast enough to hit the flanks where they won't be hit by multiple ranks, I see these Level 4 Wizards doing well. Unless the magic changes make you not want to invest so much in your own wizard.

4) Slaves will be very situational now - With far more infantry and longer charge ranges, I suspect LD2 stubborn will not be very desireable. Clanrats may be better.

[Falkman]

Stubborn only stops you from using a character's Ld, not necessary any Ld bonuses from the unit itself (skaven have never had stubborn units so I guess we don't know?).

Stubborn as it works in 7th ed means you always test on your unmodified Ld. Strength in numbers is a modification and thus would not work with Stubborn if the rules are the same in 8th.

[Memnos]

Stubborn as it works in 7th ed means you always test on your unmodified Ld. Strength in numbers is a modification and thus would not work with Stubborn if the rules are the same in 8th.

Yep. It might get errata'd, but as of right now the +3 leadership bonus wouldn't add.