Skaven in 8th Ed.

[Balerion]

Anybody ever use a "unit" of Warpmusketeers (Engineer + Warpmusket)?

30 points is a bit steep for a BS3 S5 shot model, but I love all of the Skaven warplock guns, and wish there were more ways to field units of them (Warpmusket units and Globadiers with pistols are high on my wishlist for the Skaven update... not to mention Jezzails that are actually worthwhile).

[lovedinplaster]

Jezzails.. Are more cost Effiecient.. Higher save armour, cost less, more powerful, and can get a bs4 upgrade. Worth-30pts. And can shoot further. There's no reason to take a naked engineer with warpmuskets.. Sorry :-/

I field jezzails every game. Two units of three with an upgrade on each or a unit of 6 with no upgrades. I field a unit of 5 Globadiers as well. They carry the deathglobe and a Pwm. Both units are very effective. I usually place my jezzails very first in the very front if my battle line. Or the very last off centre my cannons for light cavalry killer.

Stormvermin champions can take a warpmusket.. This is good for trying to kill single wound chaff.. Or taking that 40 pt one wound knight off on the board. I've killed a few fanatics in my day as well.. Although I never take more than one warpmusket upgrade per my whole army.

I'd like to see Globadiers carry the warpmusket.. Or the champion carries one. Pistols are no match for the globes though.

[Captain Collius]

Okay
so as of right now i have assembled
57 clanrats with hand weapons and shields (will be fielded as slaves)
51 clanrats with spears and shields
3 warpfire throwers
6 rat ogres
3 warlock engineers
1 warlord
1 grey seer
1 plague priest
1 warp lightning cannon

i have ready to be assembled
40 storm vermin
40 slaves with ?
1 warp lightning cannon
40 plague monks
2 rat ogres
6 giant rats
and either a screaming bell or plague furnace

how should i assemble my remaining units to take advantage of what i have i prefer a defensive list where i will use long blocks of slaves to terpit a deathstar and then hit it with storm vermin or plague monks. our local store meta seems to favor large horde deathstars

ohh and i plan to add 1 HPA to my list

[Metacarpi]

I don't use Rat Ogres, as I find them to be largely ineffective for their cost.

The only thing I do use them for is unit fillers, as it's nice to ahve something that takes the palce of 4 Clannies/Slaves. I also like the look it gives the unit, as the idea of regimented Skaven flies directly in the face of the fluff!

If you paly WYSIWYG, I'd just give the slaves a handweapon, I don't think it's worth investing the points in anything else for them, I'd rather use those points for more bodies!

Definitely want the make the Warp Lightning Cannon over the Plagueclaw Catapult, and I'd say that since you prefer a defensive playstyle, go for the Screaming Bell over the Plague Furnace, as it provides your Grey Seer an 18" Inspiring Presence (assuming he's your general). Make sure it's deployed behind cover though, as it's an absolute cannon magnet.

Plague Monks are fantastic - Plague Banner (reroll To Hit and To Wound for one round of CC) makes them hit really hard!

[RTB01]

Has anyone run a unit of 6 Rat Ogres including warlord on rat ogre mount? I fancy running them as I used to run a unit of 5 (previous edition) and they used to mash things quite nicely. There'd be a HPA that could support/ giant rats for rank bonus. What are people's views? I've been playing fantasy for quite some time but I'm still to play 8th edition

[russellmoo]

Rat ogres are somewhat dependent on the armies you are seeing- their multiple high strength attacks are good at getting through armor, but against some armies this is unnecessary as they don't have much armor-

If you are seeing a lot of monsters- take a warlord on a bonebreaker and the fellblade- you can now chop up any monster with relative ease-

[mbh1127]

Rat ogres are just too expensive right now. I wish they were better but they kinda suck in most situations.

[karse88]

hmm i find them amusing... i brought a pack against HE... not the best idea ever, but i wanted to surprice my younger opponent with the lord on bonebraker with fellblade... i held the unit on the back line, removed a lot of the forth coming swordmaster unit with warplightning and hit him in the side... 10 str 5 hits, 4 strengt 10, and 8 strength 5 hit from the ones in the back.. and then stomp... i think its deadly and they look scary on the board! :b

[boli]

Rat Ogres as a massive unit?... yeah they pretty much suck; but lately I've had success with small units (2 Rat Ogres+1 packmaster - 88 points); their fast movement allows for me to place their charges where I want them. A unit of clanrats supported by 2 Rat Ogres is actually a pretty effecitive pair of units; I mean sure they are not going to be able to take out the toughest opponants, deathstars or the like; but 2 rat ogres into the flank of a unit held by clanrats is going to make a mess of anyone's day.

[mbh1127]

I like the small packs but even those fail all the time. I was trying two packs of two each with a master bred and master moulder swinging a great weapon. It was basically the point cot of a hell pit, which makes my head spin.

They do okay. Biggest problems I have with them...

1) it's tough to fit them on the board in the places they need to be. They have a big foot print and are hard to keep near another unit for a potential flank. Maybe I just have too many units in my current list.

2) ws3 is tough to deal with. They just don't hit that much and you are really screwed if you miss any to wound rolls.

3) great weapons plus no save makes me cry.


Maybe I will try the basic two ogres and pack master next time to save points. Someday I'm going to run the huge unit. Has anyone had success with this?

[Captain Collius]

I ran my rat things this weekend against Chaos warriors and T 5 was really killing me. i only got of 13th once (my magic rolls were horrendous) and my warp lightning cannons could not hit.

Based on this a couple?'s (please keep in mind i am a extreme noob to fantasy.) Can 13th be cast into a unit in combat with slaves? Do WLC's scatter on both rolls for artillery? Ouside of Hell Pit do skaven have any unit that can cause significant damage to WOC in melee?

[mbh1127]

hmmm

Plage Monks struggle against high T or good saves. You could try stormvermin with skaven brew and the razor standard but I think they will still get munched.

I would go with Hell pit, Doom Wheels, magic, WLC, and maybe weapon teams like the PWM (good against high toughness and good saves).

[boli]

Poisoned Wind Mortors wound on a 4+5+ no save allowed.
Warpfire Throwers are S5 and easier to aim.
Rat Ogres are S5; against CW they can pretty much roam free of being shot at and charge the flanks.
Jezzails are S6 Armour Piercing.
Doomwheel & WLC are S2-10
Wrecker attack from plague furnace is S5

... and obviously Hell Pit.


...and if you want an infantry vs infantry fight upgraded Stormvermin (S4 WS5 I5) can put up a decent fight... althoguh queek will be dead pretty much in round 1 of combat due to the challenge rule.

My suggestion is pretty simple really : go cheese or go home.. tarpit with slaves and warpfire Thrower the mass; charge the flanks with RO and finish off; HPA/WLC and Doomwheel will roam picking out choice targets; you won't earn any friends but you'll be hard to beat.

[Metacarpi]

Doomrocket is S5, which will make their armour save.... 6+? Large template too, so you can pretty much hit an entire unit of Warriors.

[russellmoo]

Or remove half of a horde of marauders-

Against WoC slaves are your most useful unit-

Rogres can put the hurt on WoC, I also like plague censor bearers, however, they tend to be more useful against marauders than the warriors- but still you do have that T test that ignores armor saves-

Dreaded 13th can't be cast into combat as it is still restricted by the general rules for spells (i.e. the spell does not specify that it can shoot into CC)

Generally, it is best to shoot/magic WoC players to death- they want to be in CC as soon as possible-

Doomwheels are awesome against WoC- due to Str 6 + lightning + impact hits= good against high initiative, good armor, high toughness

[wolvie76]

Hi,

I've just added Rats to my armies, play WOC and O&G normally, but having gone halves on two IOB boxes last year I've finally got round to buying the book and some other bits and making a start... but I could really do with some help about what a Skaven army looks like and it's strengths... I'll be playing against VC, DE and Dw mostly so a mixed bunch...

I have bought a Ikit, a HPA and a Catapult to go with the IOB rats. Also to save painting 100's of slaves I have a cunning plan to recycle my night goblins and intersperse them with rats and call them slaves which the rats have mind wiped with warp stone and take the whole tribe hostage. I've probably got about 120 NG's so this should be enough fluff as well as a cunning use of a proxy!!!

So to business, I like the tech / warmachines elements and just the big crazy looking stuff.... but I have some questions...

1) If I'm thinking about running a couple of blocks of slaves, what size is best? I run a 100 NG block, but slaves aren't the same... so is 2x60 a good idea for cheap tar pits

2) How many rats is perfect for a unit? Is it 30, or do you stick to 20's and max out on weapons teams? And if so which ones perform best?

3) Is it better to run 2 Plagueclaw Cat's or is the cannon better. How reliable are either of them!

4) Are assassins any good in practice? My mates DE one's are really bad news!

Any other hints from master Ratmen general's would be much appreciated!

Cheers,

Rich

[Tarian]

1) It depends on what you want. I run 4x35 blocks, but I've seen blocks work with huge numbers as well. 2x60 seems good, but remember to keep your slaves cheap, as in Skaven, and definitely with their slaves, quantity > quality.

2) Again, it depends on what you want. 30+ is usually good, I run my 25 due to spamming weapon teams, and still having a little buffer for SiN. As for which is best, in my opinion, the Poison Wind Mortar, due to its high utility against tough and/or armored targets (WoC Knights are a beautiful target) and the Warp Fire Thrower for the horde punishing aspect, along with tons of damage. The Grinder/Ball are too frail for CC (imo) and the Ratling Gun just isn't the same ever since it had to roll to hit.

3) I haven't used the Catapults (I run pure Clan Skyre) but the Cannon is beautiful, amazingly cheap, and the template at the end is beautiful. That said, it's Skaven, so reliability is... meh?

4) I've run one a few times, and I decided that he's only good against characters, usually, is too expensive, and any character that is threatening my general that bad is going to pulp him anyways. I'd rather have more rats.

Final thoughts: Rats are a quantity game. As long as you're near your general (ld7) with high ranks (SiN +3 Ld) and a BSB, your units are a rerollable 10, on steadfast, which is amazing.
Gray Seers are amazing, and you can always have Ikit "Counts As" a Gray seer. (I use mine as a Gray Seer who only takes Ruin).
Doom Rocket is stupidly undercosted, I've never played a game without one, and it's always made its points back, with its best shot removing a unit of Black Guard except for the Champ and BSB.
Speaking of BSBs, they are vital to Skaven, as you will typically lose combats, due to poor troops, and rely on numbers to pull them down.
Oh, and the Stormbanner is amazing if your friends shoot a lot (not so much against VC, but...)
And the Screaming Bell is an amazing anchor and centerpiece for an army.

[boli]

I think the *absolute* minimum slaves you'll want is 40, between 50-75 is much better. A 5x15 (75) unit is the biggest you can fit in your deployment zone. Of course you could go 7 or 10 (horde) wide... but you negate one of the benefits of slaves (tarpitting).

A 10x10 (100) or a 10x15 (150) horde a frightening sight to see on the tabletop but it is extremely vulnerable to any spell/effect which effects every model in the unit.

As for clanrats 20-25 is possible if you are doing weapon team spam, but if you want to use them in combat 30-40 is best, I quite like 35 (5x7) myself . A chieftain in such a unit in a horde or not packs a relatively powerful punch few expect from Skaven, especially if you use death frenzy

[wolvie76]

Hi,

Thanks for the advice, it is really helpful and I think I know where to start now! I do have a couple of purchases to make, but I've got subs to fill gaps for the minute so I can have a play with them.

I've read lots of stuff about the screaming bell, and it does sound pretty special, but I guess like all things Skaven it can be a little hit and miss. Any advice on tactics would be helpful...

1) If you've got a bell and/or some war machines is the game more about sitting back and sending the slaves forward to tarpit, or is it about getting into combat and slowly grinding down the enemy?

2) Magic looks good... there are a few buff spells like Death Fenzy, Filth and then the other seem generally pretty good, but is magic how Skaven games are won?

3) For my other armies games are usually it's about combat and that doesn't sound like we'll be winning much of that!!! Is it tar pit and hit in the side with Ogres and HPA.

4) Storm Vermin look a lot better than Clan rats, but if quantity is the way to go ?

Sorry if I'm asking obvious questions, but there's nothing quite like the voice of experience over just reading the book!

Cheers,

Rich

[BlackPawl]

The screaming bell can win you battles but also be the reason that you loose some battles ...

The Screaming bell is good because:
* it gives your grey seer a 18" leadership radius
* provides you with an unbrakeble unit
* with it random table it can give you some bonus (but you don't have to rely on it)
* gives your Grey Seer a 2+ ward against most spells

The Screaming Bell is bad because:
* for warmachines it is an easy target, with one good roll from a cannon it can kill your Grey Seer
* if the screaming bell gets into close combat more ranks and files can attack your grey seer
* your Grey Seer can not use Skitterleap to escape from a bad situation

So it depends on your meta, if there are many armies with cannons it is not a good optioin, without them is can be a really good option (in a league I play actually I have one and I am sattisfied with it, but in one game I lost my Grey Seer in the last turn because of a good cannon shoot).

You can use a Screaming bell and before the enemy can charge your Grey Seer, you can turn the bell around so that the enemy unit can only attack your rear - and because you are unbrakleble he has to kill all of your rats to get to your grey seer (and he can still cast magic because he has a 360° LOS).
One good option can be to give him Duel Blades, Skalm and the rival hide talisman. So even if he get catched in close combat he is not an easy target (but a hero or lord will still hack him into pieces).


1) It depends on your enemy. If you have more firepower than your enemy than stay on your side and hope that the warmachines from Skyre will work long enough to punch holes in the enemy lines. If you face a dwarf or empire gunline it should be better to go into close combat because you can fire into close combat (with your slaves units only), but the enemy can not shoot back.

2) Magic is good. We do not have access to the really good spells from the BRB, but some of our spells are also good (plague, 13th, sometimes cracks call). We just don't have good protection spells, so you don't can protect your units from harm, but that would not be a really skaven way ...

3) We have some solid combat units. We can not stand toe to toe with some of the best troops out there (WoC, DoC, Ogres, blackorcs, Beastmen, etc.), but against most rank and file we have:
* stormvermin (with the upgrade and / or the -1 AS banner even better)
* plague monks (with the plague banner a good one hit unit against light infantry)
* rat ogres (there are better MI units around, but they are ok now).

With skaven you can not charge blind into combat, like empire you have to combine your troops to good acces. Kill good enemy units with warmachines and spells or hold them away from you with small expendable units.

4) Now I play some games with an army with mostly cheap troops (alone 270 slaves in a 2500 poiunt list) with good success, but I have also played a "small" list (small in terms of skaven) with a horde of 40 stormvermins, 30 plague monks (also horde) and some support troops and it did also a good job.

Skaven have a good army book in relation that we can play different playstyles (take mass MI units, go all Skyre with many warmachines, take mass of cheap troops, rely on some good combat blocks etc.), so we have some choices to make when we write our lists. And that's a good thing ...