but you can still take your 5 shots with no armour saves allowed will marching 18 inchs and shooting, pretty hard to pin down with L10 and no march blocking...Originally Posted by willowdark
but you can still take your 5 shots with no armour saves allowed will marching 18 inchs and shooting, pretty hard to pin down with L10 and no march blocking...
Well, you can't march and shoot, but apart from that I agree the Highborn w/ machine gun will still be very effective.
I rarely use that particular variety of Alter, opting for the hero versions for combat support. Those will be seriously hurt, but the Standard Alter will still have a place against things like fast cav or skirmishers.
"I'm on the verge of tears as we arrive at Espace, since I'm positive we won't have a decent table. But we do.
Relief washes over me in an awesome wave."
In the winter,
The long and hallow eaves of the willow
Dance like the shadows of Loec.
I wouldn't mind seeing a unit of 30-40 eternal gaurd, with a General whom can only be hit on 6. He can survive most challenges keeping enemey carachters out of your units way, and you can take most non elite infantry down. Stubborn because general in unit, and keep your bsb near by for rerolls. Throw in a harp for 5+ wardsave and it is a decent unit... still not as good as others for cheaper:P
Last edited by goodz; 11-06-2010 at 16:42.
@goodz the problem with the general in EG is that he's a very obvious target and all most armies have to do to kill him is to reject challanges. Sure, you can place one of his chars to the back but even most combat troops can smack a WE Highborn. He'll have T3, next to no armour and a 5+ inv save from the Harp. That's not very good even against good melee troops.
Or Heaven forbid you get into one of these stupid roll-off situations (Opponent has a "hit always on x+" rule) and you loose the roll...
Ah, those Rouge Traders..I suppose being a Red Trader has its benefits when dealing with the Space Commies..
Traitors and defeatists the lot of you!
Altar Kindreds should never be long charging ranks units, ever. Their targets are cavalry, war machines, small ten man missile units and lone targets such as chariots - if you've been running down ranked infantry you're opponent is playing poorly. Their effectiveness as a super fast hunter model will not change.
Wardancers, you're forgetting, can doll out 20+ attacks at STR4 on a charge and can become Toughness 7 - so that extra row of STR3 attacks hitting on 4's wounding on 6's from those five meagre swordsmen even if you charge a unit to the front? Useless.
Waywatchers will still gain cover in trees, in addition to cover as skirmishers and there special rule. They will still be hard to hit.
Treekin are still overpriced!
Wildriders are +3 CR on the charge and T7 possible too!
Less doom mongering, more adaptation, we haven't survived in the woods against the Dark One and the Brettonnians for this long moaning and crying into our iced teas!
Nocculum - your obsesssion with T7 tells me you are definately advocating magic heavy. T5 is more realistic even with this assumption.
Which seems a necessity for the wood elves now.
If skirmishers can march and shoot, I see waywatchers or even scouts as units that are going to run and gun around hills a lot.
Generally I have to agree with the concensus that the semi gunline is the way to go, with treekin and wardancers/dryads as protection.
Couple of small (vey small!) boosts granted to magic items
Befuddlement of mischiefs will make affected enemies unable to parry since you can't parry if your stupid. Same for Dragontooth arrows. I think this could be worth it.
With mega charge distances Horn of the Asrai could disrupt a whole battleline.
Moonstone could become even better with more terrain on the table. It could also allow a supersub unit to grab objectives near a key wood at the last minute.
Merciw's locus plus potion of T makes for a nice non challenge version of the Annoyance of Netlings.
Its not much I know. But imo we don't have enough information to see how wood elves fare, as I see them as the army most likely to play the scenario rather than just kill the enemy.
668 - the neighbour of the beast.
I don't think a single level four caster is magic heavy, but I see your point. Even so, T5 war dancers are still 6's to wound for the most part, against rank and file at least.
It is far, far too early to speculate that 'Wood Elves are useless' (paraphrase) yet. We have no idea how things will pan out or if the errata will effect anything in the army. We have plenty to go on, sure, but until we've played, we can't get a feel for something.
Oh, absolutely. It doesn't look great for wood elves but they were one of the strongest lists before, and the armies that are considered stronger (VC and Daemons) have also been nerfed somewhat it seems.
Until we see all the rules its a lot more difficult to comment on wood elves than most other armies.
668 - the neighbour of the beast.
Plus, Wildriders are fantastic now, how good will they be STR5 T5 5+/5++ Fear Causing?!
hmm i think maybe taking 2-3 units of 20 gladeguard(two ranks of 10 elves) with musician and standard, 2 units of glade riders, some dryads or scouts, 1 unit of wild riders(ive bought the unit so i will use it...) treeman and eagle, lord will be shooting alter highborn, 1 mage and hoda carrying noble with bsb on elven steed.
getting horde rule to your archers is just fantastic when you take account that cool new shooting rule(2 ranks can shoot), enemies need to concentrate to wipe them off before he/she can do anything to your support/cc units since wast amount of longbows in each unit
The first, most immediate effect of firing in two ranks is manueverability.
Nothing about the rule makes archers cost less. So, units of 10 still cost 120 pts, and units of 20 cost 240. Add in a banner and your archers become a 350 pt liability, especially with random charges covering more ground on average.
Units with a smaller frontage make lateral movements and wheel more effectively, and can hug terrain and set up redirects. Units in 2x10 will be just as cumbersome as the current lines of 10, but cost twice as much, while two units can be staggered to threaten the same targets but prevent one fast unit from taking the whole thing down in one charge.
And fighting in two ranks won't make GG better in combat, since everyone will be fighting the same way. GG poor stats and lack of equipment will hurt them just as much as ever.
"I'm on the verge of tears as we arrive at Espace, since I'm positive we won't have a decent table. But we do.
Relief washes over me in an awesome wave."
In the winter,
The long and hallow eaves of the willow
Dance like the shadows of Loec.
Bigger units can serve as anvils though, which wood elves otherwise lack. As long as they maintain more ranks than the opponent, they should be able to hold (with stubborn). Against opponents without ranks (e.g. monsters, cavalry), GG become better in combat too. Plus, bigger units have a bigger deterrence effect of their stand and shoot. I definitely think 1 big unit will find its place in some lists.
Well, assuming you can even S&S with two ranks, you'll never be Stubborn against an enemy you Stood and Shot, so that's kind of a non-starter. Though the absolute S&S banner on a big unit would be strong against a lot of other units.
At the same point cost, 12 pts each, I'd think EG would be infinitely better as an anvil since you actually can fight. Though we'll have to wait for the book and the Errata to see how EG weapons will work with fighting in ranks. They technically have spears and shields though not strictly modeled that way.
I don't totally disagree with the large 20-elf archer unit, I just don't think it will be good in combat anymore than they currently are.
Last edited by willowdark; 15-06-2010 at 03:07.
"I'm on the verge of tears as we arrive at Espace, since I'm positive we won't have a decent table. But we do.
Relief washes over me in an awesome wave."
In the winter,
The long and hallow eaves of the willow
Dance like the shadows of Loec.
It will be interesting to see whether you go 10 or 20 elf archers. It's probably a matter of taste because both have their advantages and my guess is that many people will use a compromise like 12 or 14 GG.
The 10-elf units are more maneouverable and compact and you can have more of them which gives you a larger flexibility. They are also less vulnerable to templates although they still hurt big time. The 20-elf units can pump out more shots at a single time which is esp. good for S&S (provided that you may S&S with the additional ranks) and they are are more resilient to panic and have a chance to defeat weak units in combat. That chance isn't very good though and they cost quite a penny.
Personally I'll probably not go with 20-elf units or 1 at most and mainly 10 or 12 elf ones.
Ah, those Rouge Traders..
The main way I'm thinking of going is heavy Treekin supprted by shooting and Treemen.
Wild Riders and Wardancers seem to take a huge hit, which is a shame as Wardancers are one of my favourite units in the game.
Did anyone actually confirm or verify whether Fast Cavalry still do not get ranks?
With all the changes (normal units moving almost like Fast Cav) and neccesity for ranks, I can imagine that Fast Cav got buffed in some way.
I guess we'll need to see when the Big Bad Book comes out
I don't think Fast Cav will get a rank, but I tend to think, or at least hope, that WR will have the Fast Cav rule taken away, and therefore get a rank bonus. I don't really think they need to be fast cav since they're ItP, so I think this would be the best way to keep them effective.
I agree with Poseidal that TKin will be very good in 8th. They're still expensive, but if you're running 4 right now it will only be a small price for a fifth and can run 3-wide with 2 in the back and have 5 models attacking with only a 3 model frontage. That's a lot of damage output while actually benefiting from better maneuverability. I'll probably drop my TMan altogether though to come up with the points for 2 units of 5.
It will take a few games I'm sure to figure out if 2x5 TKin is better than 5 TKin and a TMan, but if WR and WD get hit hard enough I'm sure I'll have plenty of points to go around.
"I'm on the verge of tears as we arrive at Espace, since I'm positive we won't have a decent table. But we do.
Relief washes over me in an awesome wave."
In the winter,
The long and hallow eaves of the willow
Dance like the shadows of Loec.
I don't see how this is the case. Could you elaborate? The way I see it, a musician allows a free reform (on a successful ld check) in the turn before the GG bunker probably will get charged and WE don't suffer any penalties for moving and shooting. The Salvo rule allows a significant part of the unit to shoot and S&S for another turn.
Definitely, but they of course cannot shoot and the only purpose of the GG is to survive and hold for a round so that back-up (in the flanks) can arrive.At the same point cost, 12 pts each, I'd think EG would be infinitely better as an anvil since you actually can fight. Though we'll have to wait for the book and the Errata to see how EG weapons will work with fighting in ranks. They technically have spears and shields though not strictly modeled that way.
We aren't even close to clear if Salvo will work on a S&S. I'd assume it wouldn't. So even if you can fire in 2 ranks on a S&S, which I'm not sure you can since S&S should be a limiting condition, you're still only making 10 shots when in 5x4 formation, which isn't any better than they currently are.
And 4-ranked units probably won't be Stubborn very often since most cheaper infantry will be 5 or 6 ranks deep.
Doesn't the rumour stipulate ranks as determined after attacks for Stubborn? If so, GG will lose ranks as quickly as they'll drop them with a S&S. There are just too many reasons to assume GG won't be Stubborn to really assume they ever will.
Their initiative is good but their other Stats are terrible and they have no equipment. Anything with 2 attacks or Spears will eat them alive, especially since those troops are commonly cheaper because they don't have a shooting attack so will come in with more ranks.
EG rules amount to 2 attacks from the front and spears from the next ranks. That should equate to 2 attacks from the front then 2 ranks of Spears behind, for 20 attacks at I5 instead of 10 Attacks at I4 from GG. EG will be very good in 8th as a combat unit, while a big unit of GG will probably get 1 or 2 rounds of shooting before becoming a huge liability.
I could see a large unit on a flank being a powerful missile base, but if the enemy sends more than one unit after it it won't survive the game, assuming you can only S&S against one charger like now.
It really boils down to Salvo on a S&S. I just don't see it being an option.
"I'm on the verge of tears as we arrive at Espace, since I'm positive we won't have a decent table. But we do.
Relief washes over me in an awesome wave."
In the winter,
The long and hallow eaves of the willow
Dance like the shadows of Loec.
I Love my WE... but against my VC friend... I'm toast.
He fields two 100 model (10 by 10) zombie units in 2000 points. With the loss of preemptive enemy removal by killing models in BtB and the 30 zombie attack retalliation, my only way to beat these units, is to never make any contact with them... :S
Guess my lord is going to be a treeman ancient now....
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote