Tactica-wood elves 8th ed

[Daniel36]

Okay, this question isn't totally about Wood Elves, but since it could be a viable strategy with the Warhawk Riders (such a hot debate right now).

If I have my Warhawk Riders positioned so they can charge an enemy unit in the rear, how would that work? I mainly have to fight High Elves and Daemons, and especially the dreaded always strike first rules of the High Elves have me at the losing end every time.

Would a unit being charged in the rear be able to return attacks? Would High Elves strike first?

It may be an insanely silly question, but we haven't yet faced a rear attack situation.

Also, I read someone talking about running down fleeing units with Warhawks. If a unit has fled in the opponent's turn, and I charge it in mine, is he automatically removed?

Thanks for the help!

[Odin]

Okay, this question isn't totally about Wood Elves, but since it could be a viable strategy with the Warhawk Riders (such a hot debate right now).

If I have my Warhawk Riders positioned so they can charge an enemy unit in the rear, how would that work? I mainly have to fight High Elves and Daemons, and especially the dreaded always strike first rules of the High Elves have me at the losing end every time.

Would a unit being charged in the rear be able to return attacks? Would High Elves strike first?

It may be an insanely silly question, but we haven't yet faced a rear attack situation.

Also, I read someone talking about running down fleeing units with Warhawks. If a unit has fled in the opponent's turn, and I charge it in mine, is he automatically removed?

Thanks for the help!

Have you considered reading the rulebook? Should resolve this pretty quickly.

[popisdead]

24 Eternal Guard, Full Command

did you moonstone the EG around? at size 24 I'd imagine that to be difficult.

How did they do? 7 x 4 config?

[happy_doctor]

@happy_doctor: congratulations on your reaching the finals...but your Noble Battle Standard Bearer is illegally equipped. He loses his bow and may not purchase a shield...
Probably not a significant thing...as he should be able to keep these things waving a flag or not...right?...I mean why can't he?...but alas, 'tis the rules...
Anyway, thought I might point that little bit out.
It's interesting how you set your army up as well...lots of small units. How were you able to get these to work for you?

True, that. I should have clarified that the tournament rules specifically allowed battle standard bearers to purchase any and all mundane equipment available to their non-BSB counterparts (just like in most recent books).

It wouldn't have mattered much, though; I forgot to use the Hail of Doom arrow in 3 out of 4 games!

Now, as far as the multiple small units are concerned: What multiple units do for you is that they divide the attention a single unit will get, make sure you have plenty of plan b's and allow you to control two key phases of the game, namely deployment and movement.

The trend nowadays seem to be 3-4 large infantry units backed up by characters and little to no support at all, but I'm still sticking to my 6th edition ways. The basic plan is to be a wood elf: encircle the enemy, sacrifice small units to keep the hard hitters occupied, take support out as fast as possible and then pick the softest target and tear it apart with one decisive blow.

The army book is NOT good in doing 8th edition stuff, it's good in doing 6th edition stuff. The combat characters will never be able to go toe to toe with Chaos Lords, so why even bother trying? Yes, 6-strong Treekin are interesting, but they also cost 390 points when 6 Trolls cost 210. Instead of playing another race's game in a mediocre fashion, I prefer to play the wood elf game in a brilliant fashion.

Enough with the pep-talk, some actual pointers:
-Never, ever engage enemy units on a single front. With 15 units you are able to hit both flanks or flank and rear more often than not. This means less attacks back, some healthy combat resolution bonuses and, most importantly: NO COMBAT REFORM.

-Wild riders are actually good at taking charges from weak infantry units, since their doubled attacks and high initiative mean they'll stick around long enough for help to come crashing into the flanks.

-Small wardancer units are ace. 90 points of throwaway goodness. As a plus, if the enemy doesn't deal with them, they will hit his flank, and will deal some serious pain with their 15 WS6 S4 I6 attacks. Their hobby is chopping characters' heads off with their killing blow ability, then getting killed and not caring.

-Lore of Athel Loren is the cement that holds this construction together: Treemen are prone to getting shot by cannons/catapults, so being ethereal helps. Treesinging is not great, but can help your dryads quite a lot. (see below) And the Call of the Hunt is the best spell in 8th edition, now that the Waaagh! is gone. Hands down.

-Dryads: Much hittier than they let you think, plus my unit of 9 enjoyed being parked in available forests and providing a mobile stubborn roadblock. You'd be surprised by how many people hesitate to charge them.

-Eternal Guard: The only unit that can break steadfast via ranks, these guys are a great mage/bsb bunker, since they can be teleported to safety whenever you need them to. More importantly, the movement spell allowed me to force clipping charges, protecting characters and providing the ranks to tip combats at the same time. (Explanation: charge the treeman vs that Warrior of chaos unit in the movement phase, then magically charge with the EG on the same facing, essentially forcing a clip)
As far as formation goes, the unit usually starts in 5x5 formation for a simple reason: in a 6" diameter forest, that unit fits fully (diagonal less than 6") and can thus teleport.


So, in conclusion: Never get in a fair fight if you can avoid it, always surprise your enemy and don't hesitate to sacrifice half your army if it puts the other half in a favorable position.

Hope that helped.

Happy_doctor

[The Old Scholar]

Hm, not a huge fan of tossing VPs to my opponents...
I thought points denial would be a better, more Wood Elf Preservationist approach.
I'll stew on what you said and look back to older lists to see if there isn't a medium between an army of few units and an MSU army...
If you prevail with MSU still, then there has to be some merit to it, I am hesitant to use it anymore.
But cool, thanks for the break down. It's all familiar what you described, but the hordes tend to disagree...

[Daniel36]

Have you considered reading the rulebook? Should resolve this pretty quickly.

Yeah, cuz that is the clearest thing this side of the planet.
I wouldn't ask if things were clear enough for me, now would I?

[The Old Scholar]

@Daniel36...
Don't worry, I'll help...
I suppose it would have been easier if Odin had not answered at all...it makes this Forum a more hostile place and I don't quite understand why someone would want to do this.
Anyway, looking in both the High Elf Armybook and in the Basic Rules, there is no caveat for a model who posesses the Always Strikes First Special Rule who is attacked from behind. These models retain the ability and will be able to strike first at your Warhawks and Riders. However, when attacked in the rear or the flanks you are not alloted supporting attacks...
Also, if you catch a fleeing unit, or charge a fleeing unit in a subsequent round, the fleeing unit is removed as a casualty (pg. 23).
Hope this helps!

[cyberspite]

Hey woodies, just coming back from a break in the hobby so thought I would take a look through the tactica,

@happy_doctor, thanks for sharing your list it's good to know that msu can still work in 8th, it was always my favorite way to play wood elves.

@The Old Scholar, thing is sometimes you have to make sacrifices, and I think you would really have to commit to either msu or go big to get the most out of either strategy. But then what do I know, I haven't played in like, ages!

[Daniel36]

Thanks Scholar. In all fairness, I shouldn't have retorted in such an aggresive manner myself, and I AM a lazy bum, but... live and learn.

I guess I should try out those Warhawk Riders sometime. It's good that I found out here they have Stomp. It is really annoying how you have to go about different books trying to find out what exactly they have. I also like that feigned flight idea... Not sure how much good it will do against High Elves, but I need to review my tactics because I ended up on the losing side the last couple of times.

[jtrowell]

[...]
Also, if you catch a fleeing unit, or charge a fleeing unit in a subsequent round, the fleeing unit is removed as a casualty (pg. 23).
Hope this helps!

Sorry but unless I remember the rule wrong, a fleeing unit that is charged is not automatically removed, it still get to react to the charge with a new flee movement.

Of course this can often remove the unit if it reach a table edge or if it doesn't flee far enough.

[Jetty Smurf]

Sorry but unless I remember the rule wrong, a fleeing unit that is charged is not automatically removed, it still get to react to the charge with a new flee movement.

Of course this can often remove the unit if it reach a table edge or if it doesn't flee far enough.

This is correct. Scholar's paraphrasing of the rules from page 23 miss out on 1 crucial point. That is, that in order for the chargers to destroy the already fleeing unit, they must successfully complete the charge after the flee'ers have had a chance to flee again.

[Daniel36]

But I am guessing that they are only allowed to flee even further, right? I mean, since they are already fleeing, they can't very well do a Hold reaction succesfully, right? Still, even with the added dice to flee, it's a good tactic to try to run them down.

Not that Wood Elves get that kind of thing a lot. But still. It's worth remembering. Especially now that I am going to try out Warhawk Riders for a change.

[Jetty Smurf]

That is correct. They must flee. It is indeed a good tactic, unless the dice gods hate you, and lady luck is blessing your opponent.

[The Old Scholar]

Sorry but unless I remember the rule wrong, a fleeing unit that is charged is not automatically removed, it still get to react to the charge with a new flee movement.

Of course this can often remove the unit if it reach a table edge or if it doesn't flee far enough.

Ah, yes.
Good point.
Sorry I missed that.

[Haravikk]

Charging fleeing units is particularly good if you're able to charge such that you have something you can potentially redirect into (since you'll send the first unit fleeing, then still get to make a useful charge to boot), so always be on the look out for situations where you can pull that off!

Also, take a moment to decide which order to declare your charges in, as you could potentially trigger a unit to flee within valid charge of another one of your units, which can charge it as well triggering a second flee move. Chain automatic Flee! reactions in this way and you can get an enemy off the board in short order

It's not generally something that you want to work toward setting up, but in the swirl of battle it's good to keep an eye out in case it crops up. But you could always try to keep your units in a formation that may be able to take advantage of it more easily.

Sorry for the exhaustive description there, but with a highly mobile army, running units off the table is a very good way to get victory points, and if by a stroke of luck a nasty enemy unit you'd otherwise struggle to beat happens to flee, then running them off the board is just about the most amazing thing ever! And I've done it once with Dwarfs, though admittedly having a Gyrocopter helped a lot!

[WizzyWarlock]

I've been trying to come up with more ideas for my Wood Elves and have thought about this one:

Alter Highborn: Dawnspear, Glittering Scales, Amaranthine Brooch, Potion of Fooldhardiness, Shield - 5+ ASv, 3+ WSv.

My general plan with him is to follow around the other combat units until something gets into a fight. He then charges into the side of the unit and causes that unit to have -1 to hit against the main combat unit.

For example: A unit of Dryads moves up the table and charges into a unit of Orcs. At the same time, the Alter charges into the side of the Orcs and hits first (having an I of 9). With 5 attacks hitting the side of the unit, where there aren't going to be any heroes to worry about, he no doubt causes a casualty and the entire Orc unit is then -1 to hit. To hit back the Orcs now need 6s against the Highborn and likely 5s against the Dryads. When it comes to combat resolution, the Orcs will likely end up killing less Dryads and are also classed as Flanked. They're not likely to break due to Steadfast, but winning the combat means the same happens again next turn.

Well, that's the theory anyway. Has anyone tried this? Does it work? Is it worth it? I'd imagine having a mobile -1 penalty giver would definitely have it's benefits.

[Nocculum]

You might find him better off in a mid to large unit of Wild Riders (or War Dancers) so they have the combat power to not only beat a unit every turn, but potentially wipe things out as a hammer unit.

If you want defensive, though, Lore of Beasts default spell on the Dryads is enough in itself to turn the tide; the Alter works (still) best as a War Machine and cavalry hunter.

[Temakador]

hey all i plan to run a fluffy yet competitive sethayla themed army, so i'm hear to lay out how it can be competitive.


firstly ill talk about the core, the glade riders, yes some people think there a poor choice
in comparison with glade guard and especially dryads and why is this? well glade guard for the points will throw out twice the number of shots at the enemy so win-win right? and well dryads are one of the only things that can deal with 8th s step up attacks and still remain competitive in a straight up fight, while glade riders will pore a poor amount of shots for there points and will then very easily die to any incoming fire and if they charge into combat? well then 100% dead just from step up even if they hit the flank there no good in a competitive game right?.....wrong, Im hear to say this in my themed army i have no blocked units i have no gun line the enemy can hit if i don't shoot them down before they get to me, i'm a mobile force that if played smart no blocked unit can hit i mean free reform and 18 inches to play with? no way a block of mass infantry (like the ones were seeing in 8th) will ever get to, get to grips with you in hand to hand which is good because lets face it glade riders and warhawk riders suck at 8th combat so with the ability to simply reform and charge away or in between enemy units while still shoot with no modifier great news, so who cares if you are not as hard as dryads or don't pump out as many shoot as GG your not going to get into combat and will just dance around picking off any threats to you ( e.g anything that can shoot you ) for the win, ofc in my list i would back them up with a life spellweaver because the weakness is early game magic/shooting before you get a chance to shoot/charge with eagles them so a lvl 4 life mage seems to be the perfect counter to this weakness

now the warhawks really run a similar game to the glade riders, avoid the big blocks that will eat you alive in combat ( true in some cases) and just fly over and around them abusing the free reform and march, before ultimately charging there war machines if they have any or just group charging with 2 units of 3 a weak unit ( e.g light cav) or just aiding the glade rides cut down a weak unit to gain VP while because they cant get to combat with you wining the VP game

Now if you have read all this then you probably have realised that run and hide and shoot then run and dodge some more is a great tactic for dealing with the combat blocks any shooting and magic with direct damage will eat this army alive, and yes its true its the one big weakness of the mobile untouchable gun line....it can be shot, ofc to deal with this anything with a gun/bow and a happy trigger finger becomes priority target, so send in the nobles on eagles to the war machines send the warhawk riders in for the second turn charge, as well, focus all fire on thee missile troops, get behind them if you can ( 12inch+18inch will get you 6inch away form there bored edge so something to think about) missile troops don't usually bring musician so no free reform, focus every thing at there missile troops and war machines then its just running around till game ends and you win because they only had 1-2 turns of shooting which you then killed and then just denied them any more VP

So if you read all this ( thanks if you do) this should work right? i mean why not what have i missed why is this not a competitive themed army idea? or if you agree great post a list, me, myself and I will be posting a list shortly and will be test running it tomorrow so until then thanks

[Jetty Smurf]

Definitely sounds like an interesting idea, Temakador. Something to think about. However...

missile troops don't usually bring musician so no free reform

I have never faced an army in 8th that did NOT have a musician in every single missile/ranged unit. Swift reform is massive in this edition, and especially on missile troops. In fact I would go so far as to say anyone who doesn't have a musician in their ranged troops is a poor list writer, as flanking/fast units will eat them alive otherwise.

I also rarely see small missile units, but I guess with so much ranged firepower that's not a problem.

How big do you run your units? Organ guns will eat any small units alive, as will regular missiles + magic missiles/other magic. You did say this was a concern, but I find getting spells off with Wood Elves not the easiest to be honest.

What points do you normally play at? I can see this potentially working for smaller games, but larger games, I'm not too sure.

Any strategy is a welcome strategy when it comes to wood elves, so if this helps you, and anyone else out there, that makes me happy.

Cheers for the post, Temakador.

[Matt.Wood88]

@Temakador: this kind of list is the exact same one I was planning when 8th ed came out, and having tried out a few games, there is one item I will say that you need to have on your inevitable spellweaver; The Wand of Wych Elm, solely to stop those spells which will destroy your units... Being able to re-roll dispel attempts is the most useful thing ever IMO.
And just bear in mind that if you play friendly games wit this list everyone will hate you... Only because you will never, ever want to be in combat, and If you manage it, it's not the most fun game for your opponent
I'm not trying to dissuade you from using it though, just warning you lol
Cheers
Matt