Why did grimgor leave archon on the ground instead of killing him?

[GREEN IS DA BEST]

On the storm of chaos website under day 3 grimgor and archon go at it. Grimgor basically bitch slaps archon across the face and decides that he proved his point by kicking his ass in combat. Now i just dont understand this logic if i was grimgor i would of chopped his head clear off with gitsnick.


If any one can please tell me if you know grimgors logic for doing this please share it with me.

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Sorry i should of mentiond that grimgor left him on the ground after deciding to not chop his head off and him and his army leave.

[ROCKY]

I think this was discussed in the should archaon be spawned thread. First off, he wasn't "bitch-slapped". he was already wounded several times by valtenand Huss. Grimgor "snuck up on him" and edbutted him, then smacked him twice. If this is "honorable combat" Archaon would undoubtly destroy that gobbo! (dude he lost to Crom and Archaon wooped crom with one smack). As for why grimgor left him:
1) he knew what everything I just said and decided to leave.
2) he wanted Archaon to get mad and come after him so that they can have a "good" fight.
3) he is just stupid
4) He wanted to prove that he was still better and that archaon would have to live with that
5)'cause Gav Thorpe said so!
Enjoy

[GREEN IS DA BEST]

actullly grimgor didnt actully fight crom in one on one combat his army got owned by croms and that is why he killled all his gobbos and takes battle hardend vetrans and that is why he set out to redeam him self to gork

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lol because he is just stupid thats a good one

[ROCKY]

pg56 of the storm of chaos book states that they cut through until they fought each other and that they both could not get through each other's defence. However if they did continue, I would believe that Crom would have won because of his way of the warrior techniques: crom's gitsnik would be considered a regular hand weapon and every time Crom lands a wound he can attack again. Grimgor may be tough, but he is only an orc. And lets say after his hard battle he did manage to win, Archaon beat crom in seconds!

[GREEN IS DA BEST]

remember that grimgor would have atleast 9 black orks accompaning him... unless we are going by fluff in which case he would not because grimgor was basicly the only one left

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and the reason grimgor backed down from him is because he would of been masacred becuase he had to deal with a whole army even if he did kill crom after wards because his army was mostley dead and the rest was retreating.

[ROCKY]

You are not making old grimgor look better by saying that he is accompanied by 9bodygaurds, it is just like saying: I accept your challenge! as soon as I get my tank and some backup!

[GREEN IS DA BEST]

what im saying is that if we were playing a real game i would HAVE to take atleast 9 black orks personally i do not like that rule because i would like to put him in a unit in the first place... black orks can hold their own with out grimgor against many units anyway.

[Gobbas]

Rkattan you can't count game rules into the fluff or the other way around.

so he has "warrior techniques" that makes magic weapons not work, what does he do? some manga style screaming loud with lots of flahses and then they don't work?
Grimgor only have a magic weapon, I am sure Grimgor has some techniques of his own.

And if counting rules into the fluff, should it not work the other way around too?
Then I would not want to play a daemonic army agaisnt teclis, since he would just make the go....away.

[Sylass]

GREEN IS DA BEST, we have an edit button to edit a post if you forgot to add something instead of double posting.

I've edited your existing posts and deleted the double posts.

-Sylass,
WarSeer Admin.

[Minister]

I am reminded of Ghazghul and Yarrick from 40K: The Old Man of Armageddon was captured and allowed to escape rather than simply killed. Because it's not the victory that matters most, it's the fightin'.

[RGB]

If any one can please tell me if you know grimgors logic for doing this please share it with me.

Can't help you with that one; but the real reason was that Gav et al. had no guts to get Archie killed.

Cause Chaos is the Rox00rs.

[Rathgar]

Because, the writers wanted an end to the campaign that sort of pleased everyone. Which made it, I believe the technical term is; Naff.

[CommanderCax]

If any one can please tell me if you know grimgors logic for doing this please share it with me.

There is no logic reason, neither is there a logic reason how a big Orc army was all the time able to move around in a warzone between two opposed fractions (namely the Empire and Chaos) and being able to approach the center of the major battle and thusly Archaon (as well as Valten and Huss).
We speak about tenthousands of troops on every side. Especially for an unsneaky army like the Orc one, it should be an impossible feat, without even thinking about the logistical problems for any kind of supply such armies are in need of.

The only reason for this to happen, was that the Orcs needed to do a major thing during this campaign. Otherwise all the Orc players would have cried once again that Chaos is favoured all the way. Which is unfortunately even true in a way.
The writers (Gav et al.) wanted to please everyone (ie. every fraction) and therefore it resulted in actually satisfying no-one. Even going so far to make some kind of useless 'special guest appearing' Mannfred von Carstein saying hello and leaving... I mean what was that good for?

All this 'knocking out' thing alone is so plain ridiculous it hurts.

[ROCKY]

Rkattan you can't count game rules into the fluff or the other way around.

so he has "warrior techniques" that makes magic weapons not work, what does he do? some manga style screaming loud with lots of flahses and then they don't work?
Grimgor only have a magic weapon, I am sure Grimgor has some techniques of his own.

And if counting rules into the fluff, should it not work the other way around too?
Then I would not want to play a daemonic army agaisnt teclis, since he would just make the go....away.

As for rules and fluff, If you read the SOC book you will see that indeed Gitsnik did not provide any magical assistance of any kind. whether this interacts with the "rules" or not is not the point of my interest. I am merely saying that when grimgor and crom fought Gitsnik was dormant and crom matched grimgor move for move, which means logically Archaon, being the one who layed out crom in one shot, would easily destroy grimgor as the orc could not DEFEAT crom. and as for why archaon was spared? look at my first response.

[ryng_sting]

Personally I find it cool that the Everchosen wasn't taken down by some pious Empire guy, but by a supremely angry Orc with a big axe and bigger point to prove.

Some points to remember, as I've posted elsewhere:

Fluff doesn't always translate directly into rules, and vice versa.

On Grimgor's blindsinding of Archaon: he's an Orc! He's not going to tap him on the shoulder politely or salute him before giving a dazzling display of skill. He's going to stuck in, no messing.

Archaon was worn down, where Grimgor was relatively fresh.

The reason why Archaon was spared - as you ought to already know - was that Gav wasn't going to kill Archaon. The fluff reason, presumably, was because Grimgor wanted to dish out the same treatment to Crom's boss that Crom dished out to him: humiliation.

[Bubble Ghost]

I am merely saying that when grimgor and crom fought Gitsnik was dormant and crom matched grimgor move for move, which means logically Archaon, being the one who layed out crom in one shot, would easily destroy grimgor as the orc could not DEFEAT crom. and as for why archaon was spared? look at my first response.

Gitsnik wasn't "dormant", Crom's just skilfull enough in personal combat to compensate for it. Archaon, on the other hand, just out-muscled the guy - Crom, I think it's fair to say, is a more talented fighter than Archaon, but his skill didn't do him much good against God's Own Badass. By the time Archaon fought Grimgor he'd already taken a sledgehammer blow to the head and had the most powerful magic weapon known to man slap into his arm, it's fair to say he wasn't on top form.

(Game stats are irrelevant when comparing strength in background terms - the S stat represents a very absracted ability to deal damaging blows, which is a different thing to raw power. I seriously doubt even Archaon could arm-wrestle a griffon, or that Tzar Boris could arm-wrestle Archaon, even though they all have the same S stat.)

On the other hand, I do think sparing an enemy is a bit un-orcy. In a way, it fleshes out Grimgor a bit, because it shows that he has a depth of emotion and thought beyond that of other orcs - understanding that there are ways to rub an enemy's nose in a loss beyond just killing them isn't something that would even occur to most greenskins. But it's still somehow unsatisfactory, because of the lingering knowledge we have that it didn't happen for that reason, but rather for the more cynical aim of keeping Archaon alive so as not to outdate the Chaos book.

What the finale represented was an attempt to incorporate as much of what happened during the campaign into the ending as possible, and it was a noble effort, but given that they were never going to kill Archaon off no matter what, I'd prefer the game results to have been made even less relevant in favour of a more satisfactory storyline. They went for pleasing all of the people some of the time, it's just unfortunate that every fan thinks they have a divine right to be in the group of some that get pleased all the time.

[Suicide Messiah]

How is Crom a better fighter than Archaon? Could he beat a bloodthrister in single combat? No. Could he gaze upon Slaanesh and resist him? No. Crom is just Archaons lacky, one of many, who GW gave a name, backstory, and rules to for a campaign.

As to why Grimgor left Archaon, well, thats already been explained. It was because GW didnt want to out date the chaos book. My opinion for the 'fluff' reason is that Grimgor had no beef with Archaon. It was Crom who ticked him off, and beating Archaon was just a way to get back at Crom (since its made pretty clear that crom worships Archie).

[MvS]

As others have already said, I personally think that Archaon wasn't killed off because the miniature is a good one, the character is cool and they wanted him to stay in the game.

We can find ways of rationalising his survival in terms of the imagery, but I think whatever we do would be secondary. Archaon survived because he is just too cool to kill just yet.

I think.

[RGB]

He isn't even that cool.

The mini has a nice horse though.

[Skinnydookie]

Grimgor didn't kill Archaon so that he would have to live with the shame of defeat. When Crom stepped back and refused to fight Grimgor, Grimgor was humiliated as his army had lost the battle and he was forced to leave without a victory for the first time. By defeating Archaon and not killing him he believes he has left Archaon with the same feeling and at the same time restored his own hurt pride by defeating the man who bested the man who beat him.

Personally I believe the only way he will restore his own pride is to defeat Crom in a fight to the death and that Archaon will surely come after him one day for HIS revenge.