Since I use the Cauldron, I play with the Executioners for the ward save. 6str and Killing blow beats the 5 extra str 4 attacks the BG get.Originally Posted by HeroFox
Since I use the Cauldron, I play with the Executioners for the ward save. 6str and Killing blow beats the 5 extra str 4 attacks the BG get.
I can see the handbows becoming more popular on corsairs due to stand and shoot. It's not that corsairs are bad or anything either, I think they can be quite effective in large blocks.
Shades are still good warmachine hunters from my experience playing against DE. I'll let someone else answer though on other uses for them.
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This one keeps surfacing, despite earlier discussions. In practically all cases, it is a vastly superior option to take 15 extra executioners for the same pts of the Hag battle standard bearer. Step up means you get your attacks either way, you'll have more ranks, I5 is by no means guaranteed to strike first, and the Hag runs the huge risk of being pasted before you can even use the banner.
Depends on opponent and formation really. I will be using both units 7 wide, so the difference for me will be 7 attacks. It should also be noted that those attackls always benefit from hatred, even after the first turn of combat, and the BG a couple of other advantages in Ld9, I6, immuune to psychology and stubborn, along with the disadvantages of 1 pt more expensive, and of course only S4 and no killing blow.
Just read through this whole thread... Interesting.
I believe I'm a convert of the 20man RXB units running 2x10 and reforming for combat. I knocked together a quick 1500 pt list with 2 of these units, 19 spearmen with a Lvl4 with dagger, a BSB in 19 BG and a Hydra. Seemed pretty viable.
I feel I have to say though... There's alot of whining over BG being good/bad vs Executioners being good/bad. There's also both whining about Hordes and whining about Hvy Armour. Seriously people?
To the naysayers against BG for their inability to topple armour... Take the Lore of Metal.
For the opposite about Hordes... Take Fire/Shadow/Dark/Death.
Seriously... Stop arguing the utility of single units and try some synergy.
EDIT-
I know everyone loves their Armour of Darkness and Pendent combo...
But what about Armour of Eternal Servitude and the Dragonbane Gem. 4+ Regen and a 2+ Ward against wounds that deny Regen40pts for the two items.
Last edited by Paraelix; 21-07-2010 at 08:32.
With the Cauldron nearby, the executioners are also Stubborn, but yes, the rerolls every turn would be nice, but I have just had far more luck with the higher str attacks. I love my BG and paid a lot of money for them, but they have no been performing well enough to warrent their points cost for me as of late. This may change as the meta changes, but I am fighting amost nothing but Horde units it seems.
Well, the numbers would say that Black guard are better against T3 5+ save hordes but use whatever you like...it's your army!
Crossbowmen and Hydras seem to be the real winners of this edition. After a few games with two 20-strong Rxbmen units I can safely say that hordes of Khornate Marauders won't be bothering us.
The Reaper Bolt Thrower however is probably twice as expensive as it should be...
The Cauldron of Blood should be comparatively better in this edition. Last edition I frowned upon it as the same amount of points put into support units would generally produce better results but with the way combats work these days I could see a lot more people using the Cauldron.
Should be having yet another game of 8th tomorrow and I intend to try two Cauldrons. I dont expect that to go too well in all honesty...
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Character Code//521
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How do people think a unit of 10 Cold One Knights would fare as opposed to 20 Black Guard?
Hard to say... So much of WHFB is glorified rock-paper-scissors. However, logic would indicate that the Black Guard are better in a protracted fights against S3 steadfast-hordes and average-quality infantry formations in general whereas the Cold One Knights will be better against elite infantry and missile units.
Black Guard shouldn't run if they do lose a combat but Cold One should have the speed to pick the easier combats. Mind you, the Cold One Knights really need that charge so an unlucky charge distance roll will hurt them more than the Black Guard.
Overall I would call it a wash and use what suits your playstyle. If you do have problems with either unit then there should be a magic item available to our characters to fix it. (Ring of Darkness in Black Guard, Crown of Command in Cold One Knights and Magic Resistence in either unit, for example.)
Starcarft 2 ID//Draconian
Character Code//521
Always up for a game!
I'm trying out a unit of 10 knights with the asf banner and a noble with the dragon egg on one flank for the next few games. 2d6 s4 hits plus the unit's attacks and mean they should be able to neuter one unit on the charge, and the asf means they get rerolls in subsequent turns, even if they don't break the unit (steadfast, for example).
I doubt they will be better than BG, but they shouldn't be too bad. I'm trying to get away from my BG for the time being. They are still good, but not so good as to be no-brainers like in 7th. I have the option to stick the ring of hotek in there too. May still do that since they are the fastest things in my list, and can get into range of the enemy casters quickly.
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ok for a road block lord how about, heavy armour,sea dragon cloak, cold one,enchanted shield,dawnstone,pendant and the crown of command
now this guy has a 0+ save which is rerollable plus the pendant reverse ward save and he is stubbon
Armour saves are capped at 1+ this edition.
In my first game of 8th ed, (yesterday) I used a BG unit of 15 man with a hero and champ with crimson death in it, it worked rather well. I think BG have indeed become less good, but they're not as bad as some people are saying here.
They're definitely less good, but I'd still never leave home without them.
Almost all "Elves" are less good because we don't like to get hit but BG are still excellent. I will be starting a (optimistically) long-running battle report thread soon so hopefully we will see the BG triumphing over all sorts of dangerous situations!
I would just like to say, once again, that I love 8th. You know how many Dark Elves I used in my games today? Over 120 at 2250pts. I don't think that I ever went over 60/70 models in all of 7th ed!
Starcarft 2 ID//Draconian
Character Code//521
Always up for a game!
I actually think that with faster charges and prolonged combat BG are very important. The difference is that in 7th with the ASF banner they played points denial, especially if stacked with characters. That's most of what made them so unpopular to play against. People generally hate points denial armies.
Now that enemy infantry will always have a chance to strike back, BG don't really play the same role. They do play the role of anvil as well as ever, being Stubborn Ld9 and always rerolling attacks. They should always out pace the enemy in terms of casualties caused, and except against the absolute biggest hordes they should see enemy attacks back reduced before their own.
They will suffer most against high T high AS troops like Chaos Warriors and Saurus, so that will the time when it counts to be judicious about who you let get into the fight with them.
They're still the best unit to escort combat characters, especially the BSB.
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Relief washes over me in an awesome wave."
In the winter,
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Dance like the shadows of Loec.
well my army has gone from around 46 to 98 at 2k so tactics have definitly changed, because of this I have also found the CoB far more effective. I am using 20 BG with banner of murder which is usually accompanied by a master but the new star of my army has turned out to be the original meat sheild of my army, Corsairs.
With the frenzy banner and supporting attacks I get 21 attacks (with re-rolls from hatred so 3 KBs average on lower WS), although this doesnt sound alot with Killing blow from CoB does seem to make them far more effective and tends to scare my opponent too.
Anyone got any suggestions on banner choice on BG appart from Armor pen banner?
Last edited by JonnyX; 22-07-2010 at 19:46.
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Dark Elves: 6/0/2 slightly better
Previous Mission: Massacre (victory) vs Heavy magic VC
Seconded. I love out-hording VC and chaos...Even with 10 knights in my army, I still field over 100 models. It's great to field infantry and not feel like I'm depowering my army.
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"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." George Bernard Shaw
∞+1 (just because I can).
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My 1500 list has either 81 with a Hydra (Lvl 4), or 94 with a Hydra (Lvl 2 and 2x6 Harpies).
Or I can sub the Black Guard for around 9 Knights.
Hehe, I need to paint up more core, but I don't like the current models much. I'd give my left nut for a new spearmen/xbow kit....
You got it. Use Corsairs and give them spears and shields from the Warrior box or the RxBs.
The Warrior boxes are absurdly redundant as far as spears go. I bought the battalion and built the corsairs with the warrior bits, used the CoK to fill out my unit and convert a chariot, then traded the warriors, nearly 30 of them, back to my LGS for about 20 bucks store credit.
Bingo!
"I'm on the verge of tears as we arrive at Espace, since I'm positive we won't have a decent table. But we do.
Relief washes over me in an awesome wave."
In the winter,
The long and hallow eaves of the willow
Dance like the shadows of Loec.
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