Tactica: Dark Elves in 8th edition

[Dirty Mac]

Poor magic phase really screwed me over last time. and Cannons are always in range, and i can't hide from 2 organ guns,. I guess I will just deploy shades directly in front of the cannons and get in to them. Last time he put the organ guns as close to the line as he could, and I was in range after my first movement phase. the thing i need to look at is, it will take 2 turns to get to his organ gun with my Peg Lord, the other option is to screen with harpies, and get the peg lord in place , and then charge when the time is right. Problem is I don't have Harpies. Unless I drop a unit of shades, take harpies, and bolster the other shade unit until I max out on points. Or I could be man um... I mean Elf and just march up to the organ gun with the Peg Lord, and take my hits like a Elf. I have the Pendant of Khaeleth, then I can take it out. Thoughts?

Instead of 2x5 shades, I now have 1x5 harpies, and 1x7 shades.
and I have exactly 2250pts.

[Dreadlordpaul]

I personally cant wait til this sunday as I am trying out my magic heavy dark elf army against my regular orcs and gobbos player who tailers his list go against my undead. I shall be laughing when Morathi is black horring his str3 gobbos

[Dirty Mac]

Please Post your army list thanks.

[Glenn87]

just a quick question/point for discussion:

Does anyone think the Cold One Knights with the Hydra banner are still good?

Seems like 14 Knights with a BSB with the Hydra banner and possibly a Lord in there supported by a Cauldron could do some serious Damage...

Lets say we deploy them 8 wide, 2 deep, thats 26 attacks on WS5 (wich will hit on '3s most of the time, with re-rolls), S6 (wounding 2+ most of the time), and another 24 attacks on WS3 S4 (cold ones)...that's even without the Lord and BSB hitting (did count their mounts with the attacks already). Those 2 add another 11 attacks on WS6-7 S6.

all have a 2+ save.
Ofcourse, this does mean that they all have to be in base contact to be able to fight, but still...

[Don Zeko]

I still use Knights, but usually in smaller units. I find that 6-7 knights with full command is a good unit to run out on a flank. They'll have no problem running down most scouts or skirmishers, they only cost 250 points or so, and your opponent can't ignore them and let you charge into a flank of a combat block, since they'll still cause serious damage, especially with the cauldron. Plus, a 2+ save and high leadership, combined with S4 on the mounts and riders, means that many opponents will overestimate how vulnerable they are if they get charged. I can't tell you how many times my Cold Ones have been charged, taken very few wounds and then held, allowing my other units to countercharge in the next turn.

I think these advantages will be squandered with a big unit, however. 16 with a BSB is going to run in the 600-700 point range, and while they hit hard that's just not enough to deal with the kind of enemies you'll need to beat at that point value. You'll also start to attract artillery fire in a way that a small flanking unit will not. The dreadlord in particular is a bad choice here. He only add 4 attacks for 200+ points, so you'd be better off getting more Knights or even another cauldron.

[tmarichards]

It's not necessarily a bad option, but there are a few things to bear in mind- if the unit is big enough to be running into things, an extra few attacks from the Hydra Banner (assuming the Cauldron buff is up) aren't really going to make much of a difference, similar to supporting attacks from Witch Elves or Corsairs.

Secondly, if he gets hit back, that BSB will go down very easily- he's not much harder to kill that an ordinary knight (1+ instead of 2+) with only an extra wound.

On top of that he's around 200pts- that's 20 Corsairs or 10 shades that you're not taking. Once you've got the Dreadlord, Cauldron and magic in there you're already looking at 800pts of characters before spending another 200 on him.

The issue isn't so much whether he is a bad choice, it's more that once you've tooled up the unit and got the Cauldron he's surplus to requirements, not adding much but acting as a huge potential liability giving away 300pts if he dies.

[Dreadlordpaul]

I run a unit of 9 which along with my corsairs guards the flanks and will join a combat to supportthe spearmen or the corsairs if they are needed. Oh and heres the link to my army list http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=321754 its pretty straight forward

[Xerkics]

Dont you find that cold one knights are too expensive for what they do due to stupidity?

[Don Zeko]

Ld 9 means they rarely fail, and if you are worried about it, you can spend 5 points on a gleaming pennant. Since they're immune to psychology, if you fail a stupidity test it will probably be their first failed leadership test. The only real problem I have with them is that stupidity means they are immune to psychology and therefore can't flee from charges.

[Xerkics]

My khorne lord on juggernaut is always rolling 11 for stupidity so I stopped taking helm of many eyes. I'm not sure I'm sold on coknights.

[Glenn87]

and there's the BSB in there, so that's re-rollable Ld9.

I was also thinking of adding Malus Darkblade in the unit (just for fun games). That'll stop stupidity.

[Xerkics]

Btw I was just wondering how would you guys say Dark Elves rate if you dont take any hydras as i really hate the models? Still top tier or more of a mid tier list ?

[Don Zeko]

Still top tier.

[tmarichards]

I'd actually argue that Dark Elves are increasingly going to benefit from not taking hydras, as there are more and more ways to deal with them.

In any event, Shadow Dark Elves are still the best army in the game in uncomped Warhammer in my opinion, along with Skaven and Lizards.

Mindrazor combined with re-rolls and cheap infantry with I5 and 4 attacks each is simply incredible.

[Hez]

Hey,

about the hydra - I just can't look at the current gw model, imho a truly hideous one, and I'm looking for something that will fit the overall corsair/sea serpent/marine theme.
Soooo - did anyone tried to use this privateer press model for it?

I'm considering it right now, the problem is - they don't have the model anywhere near where I live right now, so I can't tell if the scale will be right for WFB before ordering it from some netstore.

Any thoughts?


Cheers,

[Capt._Jaelinek]

I'd actually argue that Dark Elves are increasingly going to benefit from not taking hydras, as there are more and more ways to deal with them.

In any event, Shadow Dark Elves are still the best army in the game in uncomped Warhammer in my opinion, along with Skaven and Lizards.

Mindrazor combined with re-rolls and cheap infantry with I5 and 4 attacks each is simply incredible.

How are they getting 4 attacks?! Please explain. Thanks

[Valnir]

How are they getting 4 attacks?! Please explain. Thanks

I think he's adding in the cauldron for witches or frenzied corsairs.

Speaking of which I was thinking of running a horde style corsairs (maybe about 40 or so) with sea serpent banner and a Bsb with the hydra banner supported by the cauldron. Has anyone tried this with much success?

[tmarichards]

Valnir is right- 1 basic, 1 for the extra hand weapon, 1 for Frenzy and 1 from the Cauldron.

I've really come around to the Corsair horde in the last few months- if you look back through this thread a few months ago I was saying that I didn't rate Corsairs, but I've really changed my mind about them.

However, I do think there comes a point where you're getting diminishing returns from the unit- I/ve found 30 to be the highest I would ever go, with 25 very acceptable.

The main reason for this is that when you have 4 attacks per model, so 40 from the front rank (assuming no champion and 10 wide), you really don't need the supporting attacks- the difference between 40 and 60 attacks, for example, is not as great as the difference between 10 and 30 attacks- 40 with Mindrazor will more often than not be enough to remove any unit in the game- and chances are, if 40 doesn't do it, 60 wouldn't either. About the only thing I can think of is 3+ ward Chosen.

So, the extra ranks don't really add very much in terms of attacks- their role is just to allow the front rank to engage, and 15 extra bodies is usually enough for this but I prefer 30 if I have the extra 50pts free.

Another way to look at it is that if you pump an extra 100pts into this unit, it's 100pts that you're spending on models that have no purpose in the list beyond to die- those extra 10 Corsairs won't really boost the effectiveness of the unit compared to if their were 30 as I've argued above, and you could have a unit of 10 xbows instead of them, which for the same points will contribute more to the game.

Obviously, this works mainly on not throwing the Corsairs into engagements they can't win, because they don't have the numbers for a protraced combat, and keeping Mindrazor in your back pocket- how to reliably engage with Mindrazor is an essay for a different day though

The Hydra Banner BSB needs some separate examination- the first step is to assume that there is already a Cauldron in the list, because he adds less than the Cauldron (the Hydra Banner helps in the first round of combat, and that's it- the Cauldron buffs the army more extensively, is harder to kill and the attack buff lasts for both rounds of combat). Once you've got the 40 S8 attacks, the extra 10 are obviously good but there are several downsides to look at:

The first is the sheer cost of the BSB- you could, for example, get 10 shades instead of him- who will add more to the list, because he's an expensive model that only helps in one round of combat. As good as he might be, not only are his benefits a little superflous but he already cuts out a lot of the list- consider what you would have to drop in order to take him (using my usual list as an example), and I'm looking at no support mage, no hydra, 10 less shades, no Witch Darts, and then I still have to find 20-30pts to free up- all of these add more to the list than he does (although the hydra is on the way out).

Secondly, he's an expensive model who only helps in the first round of combat who is not hard to kill. At best, he has a 3+/5++ (assuming the Cauldron save, 6++ with the Parry). He's only WS5, so just about everything will hit him on 4s. He's only T3, so just about everything will wound him on 4s. So, unless you destroy the enemy outright, all possible attacks will be thrown at him and he'll likely die- and bear in mind that he costs almost as much as the entire unit.

There are a couple of plus sides to mention, but I'll also mention why I consider them to be moot:

If yo canu Mindrazor the units then with 50 attacks from the front rank they'll not leave very many attacks to come back at him by virtue of everything being dead. But, if you've managed to get the Mindrazor off, then they'll likely achieve exactly the same effect with just 40 attacks- for almost half the points. The Hydra Banner BSB also means that if you do engage and you fluff the magic roll, you stand to lose a huge amount- losing 300pts of Corsairs is bad but not game-ending (as a case in point, watch this game for an example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8pnvjYAwyo), but losing 300pts of Corsairs and a 200pt hero who is also the BSB is not good at all.

The Hydra Banner BSB does also allow you to use your Cauldron buff elsewhere, because he achieves the same thing. Whilst this looks good, for less than 150pts more you can get a fully tooled out unit of Black Guard who will achieve the same thing because they can fight very competently on their own without the need for a Cauldron or magic buff- I'm a big advocate of the Black Guard/Corsair synergy (again, an essay for a different day I think )

So, overall the Hydra Banner BSB does add some nice touches to the list. However, for the amount of points you have to spend to do so, you have to cut substantial chunks out of your army, all of which add more than him for less points, and are harder to kill.

There's my thoughts at least, hopefully I've explained myself well enough

[Don Zeko]

I think he's adding in the cauldron for witches or frenzied corsairs.

Speaking of which I was thinking of running a horde style corsairs (maybe about 40 or so) with sea serpent banner and a Bsb with the hydra banner supported by the cauldron. Has anyone tried this with much success?

Too many points in that unit. There are very few fights that 25 corsairs with the SSS and no BSB won't win and that that unit will. Much better to shave off 15-20 corsairs and the BSB and then use those points to get a unit of Witch elves with the banner of eternal flame.

[Warnoober]

After getting tired of getting my butt handed to me on a constant bases I haven't touched my DE in quite awhile.

So now that I might break them out again what do I need to update themt o make them not so sucky? Infantry Wise...

I have like 30 Spearmen, 30 xbows, 20 Corsairs, 20 Witches, 20 Black Guard

Im under the impression i should expand one unit into a proper horde. More spears, more corsairs, more witches? Dropping the rest? Cause fielded as is they just get killed.