Tactica: Dark Elves in 8th edition

[Count Zero]

the ETC chaps certainly do come down hard on the Druchii. For instance they ban the PoK from lord characters then say it also counts to the pretty big 0-2 restriction if you want to put in a hero. cause that's totally game breaking on a t3 w2 guy/gal.

Also one of the restrictions is only 5 PD to cast a spell and max of +2PD generated per phase. so overall a massive nerf to our wizards who now really aren't any better than a empire wizard lord.

[Freeman]

Not to mention that the Power of Darkness spell is almost useless now. The lore of death attribute is also quite nerfed. With the 5 PD restriction there goes the "Mindrazor now or never!" tactic (and there is even people talking of a 4 PD limit instead... mostly dwarves I bet).

It's only the first draft, so I hope they rectify some of the changes later on. Don't get me wrong, trying new builds and playstyles is fun, but if they keep cutting off stuff for the sake of balance we might end up with some pretty insipid army book (and thus switching armies or giving the ETC folks the middle finger)

[Glenn87]

the ETC guys are nuts...that's my tought.
Not just on the army specific comps, but also on the common ones.

putting Max limits on units? lessening the amount of dice you can throw...
If they go on like this, they'll be playing something totally different then Warhammer...

[DragonArmy]

Hasn't been a post in this thread for a while--thought I would give it a bump!

In my latest DE army, I've had trouble getting my points worth out of my core selection. Corsairs are a simple choice--always taking 25-30. However, spearmen and shooting with x-bow men isn't cutting it--although with the right magic phase can be devastating, but looking to save my magic for other turn 2 or 3 melee combats. Mixing it up, I tried running 6-7 Dark Riders WITHOUT the x-bows upgrade. It went well!

I do a lot of shooting (only using shades) and have strong magic investment, so I look to delay combat, looking for the opponent to come to me. However, I end up charging with these guys on turn one or two before I have other combats (charge is easy to get off with M9, 3 dice and vanguard first turn). I give them the extra attack from cauldron, and then in the magic phase I either mindrazor them or wither depending on dice roles.

I crash them into units where I can maximize attacks against their general or bsb. While the general attacks back, usually I can enough st9 attacks off and 2-3 str 5 horse attacks off, barely killing a character. For armies like Skaven, this is really rough.

I have also, because my opponent didn't expect it, saved a dice to lower my opponents initiative through miasma, and miasma can support in other ways too. And even if the magic doesn't go off, several st 4 attacks can usually do something.

I haven't yet, but this could also work for a quick low initiative monster kill.

And their is always he option of just running the unit into those unprotected war machines if I feel a need too and want to save the pd dice.

But let me be clear: this only feels worth it because the sacrificial Dark Riders are coming from my core selection and I have the option to cast mindrazor a turn earlier if I want.

Still testing, but thought I would mention it. Been fun trying something new, it's nothing that great, but I did get an opponent to comment, "your Dark Riders are over-powered." =)



DragonArmy


EDIT: Should have mentioned I'm usually only running them 2-3 wide--I try to minimize the chances my unit will be wiped out and it is not that hard for me to win combat against some units (allowing me to attack yet again on their turn). And if I run, not uncommon that I escape (but by that point i need snake eyes)....

[Glenn87]

Been fun trying something new, it's nothing that great, but I did get an opponent to comment, "your Dark Riders are over-powered." =)

This annoys me with some people. You take something cool, that's not THAT great. They do something great, or you do something good tactically, and all of a sudden, people go like "this **** is OP"!!!

*sigh*

[Glenn87]

double post...

[DragonArmy]

or they miss the fact that casting mindrazor is always a risk and that the real issue is in the combo with mindrazor and CoB. The 100 point DR are only the messenger of the 300pt sorceress and 225 pt CoB supporting units combo

[Deerber]

Hi all guys. I'm Deerber, new to the forum. Nice to meet you all! First of all please forgive my bad english, I'm not a native speaker.
I used to play with the old 6th edition once. It was pretty hard for us Druchii, we had to rely on very particular tactics to be effective. Then I took a break from playing because I had not much time with my studies. Now I'm starting to get back into it and pretty much everything I used to know is not true anymore. I guess one good new is that DE are not as weak as they were before. I spent a lot of time trying to set a good list, and I'd like to discuss with you experienced guys what I've come out with.
Purpose of the list is to be all-round. I do not plan to play tournaments yet, just competitive friendly games, but I might start to play them again if I find the time. So, I'd like to have a list which goes well with nearly all kind of opponents. Yet, I do not like limitations to the list. At all. I mean, this are WH rules, and to these we should stick. That's my view on things That said, the list:

Supreme sorceress, lvl 4, sacrificial dagger, pendant of khaeleth (dark lore)

Sorceress, lvl 2, darkstar cloack (death lore)

Sorceress, lvl 2, tome of furion (shadow lore)

12 Crossbowmen, full command, shields

30 Crossbowmen, full command, shields

20 Black Guards, full command, Kouran, banner of murder

5 Harpies

5 Shades, extra hand weapon

2 Hydras.

Exactly 2000 points. Now, I do know that taking 3 sorceress is pretty strange, and all the lists I've stumbled upon on the internet are on a lvl 4/lvl 2 shadow/dark, which buys the room for a BSB. And I know you're going to advice me in that direction. But, I'd like to know why. Why is it better? I mean, in my limited view, the magic phase of DE is really strong, and so it's natural to concentrate on that one. Plus, in this way I get to use death lore, which can prove really useful. On the other hand, does a BSB help a lot? The way I have in mind to play this list is to get in CC with the black guard, having the flanks protected by hydras and crossbowmen. The BG are unbreakable, the crossbowmen can easily be made steadfast. Is it so important to have a BSB?
That said, an option I've been considering is to swap the BG with spearmen. They're damn cheap, I think I could get almost 50 of them for the same price of the BG.
Of course, any other thought about the list not regarding these two points is more than welcome!
Thanks!

[thrawn]

Hi all guys. I'm Deerber, new to the forum. Nice to meet you all! First of all please forgive my bad english, I'm not a native speaker.
I used to play with the old 6th edition once. It was pretty hard for us Druchii, we had to rely on very particular tactics to be effective. Then I took a break from playing because I had not much time with my studies. Now I'm starting to get back into it and pretty much everything I used to know is not true anymore. I guess one good new is that DE are not as weak as they were before. I spent a lot of time trying to set a good list, and I'd like to discuss with you experienced guys what I've come out with.
Purpose of the list is to be all-round. I do not plan to play tournaments yet, just competitive friendly games, but I might start to play them again if I find the time. So, I'd like to have a list which goes well with nearly all kind of opponents. Yet, I do not like limitations to the list. At all. I mean, this are WH rules, and to these we should stick. That's my view on things That said, the list:

Supreme sorceress, lvl 4, sacrificial dagger, pendant of khaeleth (dark lore)

Sorceress, lvl 2, darkstar cloack (death lore)

Sorceress, lvl 2, tome of furion (shadow lore)

12 Crossbowmen, full command, shields

30 Crossbowmen, full command, shields

20 Black Guards, full command, Kouran, banner of murder

5 Harpies

5 Shades, extra hand weapon

2 Hydras.

Exactly 2000 points. Now, I do know that taking 3 sorceress is pretty strange, and all the lists I've stumbled upon on the internet are on a lvl 4/lvl 2 shadow/dark, which buys the room for a BSB. And I know you're going to advice me in that direction. But, I'd like to know why. Why is it better? I mean, in my limited view, the magic phase of DE is really strong, and so it's natural to concentrate on that one. Plus, in this way I get to use death lore, which can prove really useful. On the other hand, does a BSB help a lot? The way I have in mind to play this list is to get in CC with the black guard, having the flanks protected by hydras and crossbowmen. The BG are unbreakable, the crossbowmen can easily be made steadfast. Is it so important to have a BSB?
That said, an option I've been considering is to swap the BG with spearmen. They're damn cheap, I think I could get almost 50 of them for the same price of the BG.
Of course, any other thought about the list not regarding these two points is more than welcome!
Thanks!

kouran dies too easy.

yes take a BSB. even if the unit is stubborn/steadfast, noting is worse then failint that ld test when you can't afford it.

[Glenn87]

Supreme sorceress, lvl 4, sacrificial dagger, pendant of khaeleth (dark lore)

Sorceress, lvl 2, darkstar cloack (death lore)

Sorceress, lvl 2, tome of furion (shadow lore)

12 Crossbowmen, full command, shields

30 Crossbowmen, full command, shields

20 Black Guards, full command, Kouran, banner of murder

5 Harpies

5 Shades, extra hand weapon

2 Hydras

then welcome back to the Druchii!!
Having a 3th wizard instead of a BSB was the first thing that I noticed. The reason a BSB is good, is because it will help you alot. Dark Elves always field a Death Hag BSB with a Cauldron of Blood, wich doesn't only grand you re-rolls, but also gives buffs army-wide.
The reason that 3 Wizards is a little too much, is because you'll only have 2D6 of Power Dice. so unless you roll double 6's for your winds of magic every time, you'll never have enough dice to use on all 3.

2nd thing I've noticed is your lack of 'combat' blok. the only thing that can fight is the Black Guards (and possibly the Hydra, but they'll need support). And even those aren't that great without magic support (only S4, and they die pretty easly).

I suggest dropping the 30 Crossbows for 30 Corsairs.
Finally, if you want to play FUN games, I'd suggest dropping the double Hydra. Max 1, or else ppl are going to shout OP at first sight. Extra shades, of possibly some Cold One Knights could help.
Ow, and make the lvl 4 Shadow. It's by FAAAR the best lore, and you'll want the magic support.

[Juicy]

New as well here. Interesting to see what everyone is posting. Personally I'm a fan off small units. I know this isn't optimal with 8th edition, with those huge horde units but it provides a tactical challenge where maneuvering of troops is paramount. I feel that you can take down hordes if you just delay combat and shoot and magic it down to the ground and flanking helps as well.

[Capt._Jaelinek]

The magic phase typically yields 7 power dice. Lets say Power of Darkness for 3 sorceresses yields another 6.

Let's assume the lvl4 with dark and the dagger. She only uses 5 dice to cast all her spells and the dagger to make up any 1's or 2's. That still leaves 8 dice for the other 2. As they are level 2's they only have 7 spells to cast. Shadow will eat up a lot of these dice if not all of them, but a few 1 die fire spells might be ok.

It's quite a stretch, but should work against most armies perhaps barring high elves.

Roll snake eyes and you are looking at getting off maybe 3 low casting spells at best. Roll 12 and you might be looking at 15 dice over the course of the phase to cast 9 spells with 4 having the dagger.

[Glenn87]

New as well here. Interesting to see what everyone is posting. Personally I'm a fan off small units. I know this isn't optimal with 8th edition, with those huge horde units but it provides a tactical challenge where maneuvering of troops is paramount. I feel that you can take down hordes if you just delay combat and shoot and magic it down to the ground and flanking helps as well.

the thing is, that most DE's play MSU style. At least I do. the biggest unit I field is 30 Corsairs, then 20 BG, 24 Spearmen, some RxB's and a bunch of Shades. In this edition, those are pretty MSU.
The thing with DE's is that you'll have to do enough damage to utterly DESTROY the enemy unit. You'll have to trade units, shoot down others and use magic on others.
I also play O&G, and a blok of Savage Orc Big'Uns can take down 2 or sometimes even 3 other units, even hordes (albeit not a Daemon horde or the like). It's because they strike last most of the time but are resilient. T4 and a ward save (wich is only 1pt higher then Black Guards' save).

Compare that to an Elf. You'll be hit on a 4, and the enemies worst units will wound you on 4's, alot of stuff on 3's and even a fair share of units will wound you on 2's.
sure, you'll get to strike with S8 (Mindrazor), and wound them on 2's...but most stuff will do a fair share of wounds back. Hence why I take Corsairs, with 3 attacks each, so I can whipe most of the enemy unit, and get less attacks back.

The magic phase typically yields 7 power dice. Lets say Power of Darkness for 3 sorceresses yields another 6.

Let's assume the lvl4 with dark and the dagger. She only uses 5 dice to cast all her spells and the dagger to make up any 1's or 2's. That still leaves 8 dice for the other 2. As they are level 2's they only have 7 spells to cast. Shadow will eat up a lot of these dice if not all of them, but a few 1 die fire spells might be ok.

It's quite a stretch, but should work against most armies perhaps barring high elves.

Roll snake eyes and you are looking at getting off maybe 3 low casting spells at best. Roll 12 and you might be looking at 15 dice over the course of the phase to cast 9 spells with 4 having the dagger.

true...but then again, wouldn't you rather have the Cauldron's buffs? I play with 2 wizards (a lvl 4 shadow and a lvl 2 Dark), and find the lvl 2 a bit too much sometimes.

[Capt._Jaelinek]

true...but then again, wouldn't you rather have the Cauldron's buffs? I play with 2 wizards (a lvl 4 shadow and a lvl 2 Dark), and find the lvl 2 a bit too much sometimes.

Cauldron buffs aside (which I agree is very nice AND very reliable) the three mage system only would really work with the lvl4 with dagger and dark magic. That way she can toss 1 die at all her spells. The opponent can't dispel all these spells, even with a lvl 4 of their own.

After that the lvl 2's can cast without much fear of dispelling or the opponent has to let several dark lore spells through to save dice.

You're right in that most turns you won't have enough dice to cast all your spells, but most turns you don't need to or can't (out of range, not effective on target unit, etc.).

Probably won't win any tournements with that list, but I would like some feedback on how it works out!

[hazmiter]

I've had success in 4k point matches with twin lv4s, and a lv2.
Lv4 dark, dagger, talis pres.
Lv4 shadow, book ashur, talis endur.
Lv2 fire, cold one, talis protect, dispel scroll.

Very amusing, and even in a dry magic phase, ie 4 or even 3 power dice, there are 3 channels, plus 3 power of darkness, starting with sorc with dagger, 1 dice, plus stab.
Then lv4 w book, 1 dice.
Then lv2, 1 dice.
My opponent didn't know what to do XD.

Also, whats a few good ideas to kill skaven........ I have to play them at some stage, 13th spell, plague and a few other spells pose a problem.
I'm planning on a double couldron, 2 masters w magic resist to counter the spells if I can't dispel...

[Soundwave]

There is no magic res from the dreaded 13th.Bear in mind infantry are the only target so you can mount up to remain safe from that.

[GodlessM]

This annoys me with some people. You take something cool, that's not THAT great. They do something great, or you do something good tactically, and all of a sudden, people go like "this **** is OP"!!!

*sigh*

Amen to that.

[Infern0]

Hello! I continued to collect DE after a shrt brake and I made a list of 3000 pt. Could you please help me out and say what don`t I really need in it, what could I add and so on,it will be really appreciated
I haven`t played FB much (I`m more of a 40k player), only a few games of 1000 pt as I didn`t have much else.

I always try to use as much of different types of units possible in my armies(in 40k anyway) - I think that it is more fun to play with a big variaty of units and armies look better, so thats why thus list contains that much random stuff, as you may think

DE 3000pt:

LnH:
-sorceress:lvl2, sacrificial dagger(shadow) - 160 pt
-sorceress:lvl2, dark pegasus, tome of furion(death) - 200pt
-Death hag:CoB - 200pt
-death hag:bsb, standard of Hag Graef - 150pt
Core:
-30 BAC:fc, sss - 350pt
-10 BAC:repeater handbows -100pt
-20 BAC:fc -225
-12warriors:shields,fc -99pt
-14 repeater crossbowmen:musican -145pt
-2x5 harpies -110pt

Special:
-10CoK:fc, banner of eternal flame - 320pt
-30Executioners:fc - 390pt
-10 witches -100pt
-10 witches -100pt

Rare:
-War hydra -175
-War hydra -175


Yeah, I use up too much points to put on the list execs with death hag, 2 hydras won`t make my oponnetnt happy and I don`t have a lord, but will this list still work?
I also thought of using a lord and a lot of witches instead of execs and DH, the problem I always meet is that more competetive units have uglier models(Black Guard I really dislike),that`s almost 70% of reasons why my lists are rediculous.
Could you please help me?

[hazmiter]

Any one got a good load out for a dreadlord / supreme sorceress on black dragon???? I got one a while back, dragons built, just don't know what to gear it up with.

[sulla]

Any one got a good load out for a dreadlord / supreme sorceress on black dragon???? I got one a while back, dragons built, just don't know what to gear it up with.

A bunch of protection, the crimson death/deathpiercer and the other trickster's shard is my preferred build. The shard is great value when on a dragon; wider base so more opponents are potentially affected vs both the rider's and his dragon's attacks.

For protection, either pendant/enchanted shield, pendant/blood armour, cloak of hag graef/dawnstone, armour of midnight/dawnstone or one of the 4+ wards.