Tactica: 8th ed Dwarfs

[yashamaru38]

I saw all the new threads for tactics coming up and noticed no dwarfs were ever mentioned. how sad

this is a thread to help the dwarfs come together and think of some tactics for 8th edition.

I dont know if much has changed for dwarfs. for starters their basic warriors just became better and thunderers and quarerlers(sp?) are now even more amazing. Plus with the percentage system, we can now take alot more runepriests or thanes to help out our warrior units. And do i even need to speak about warmachines?

All that said we do have to get used to some of the changes like how will we deal with large blocks of monsters and other heavy infantry. What are some new (and possibly old) tricks that would work for us dwarf players?

[HeroFox]

Well, here's the most accurate thread I can find in the Gen. Disc:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259412

But I guess if we're gonna start it here, then I'd say that Thunderers are great, Warriors got better, so did Hammerers and other units with GWs. Ironbreakers are still rather mediocre since Hammerers are better.

Warmachines have gotten better and worse. That's because they don't need guess ranges anymore and our runes keep them very accurate. Worse because everything now wounds on 6s and we no longer randomize into the machine. If the Cannon has 3 dudes manning it, it's T7 with 3W.. which means they're a lot easier to kill.

Counter-battery fire is also very first turn based.. but that's just the risk you take.

Dwarves also don't really care about enemy magic because they can still carry their version of the scrolls, have +1 dispel dice from Smiths and +2 from Lords, 8th Ed. dispel for Dwarves gives them +2 on attempts to dispel. MRoBalance and MRoSpellbinding are going to be very good. If you're taking RPs, take both of these and a scroll on each. No more worries about Magic for the most part

Overall, everything's gotten pretty good with Dwarves. The random charging puts Dwarves at 5-15" charge range. That's pretty awesome imo.

[yashamaru38]

all very good points. I agree on the charging rules. this makes some dwarf units somewhat of a threat on charge. a unit of hammerers packing a tooled lord charging will be funny to see.

what do we all think on the warmachines? will they be uber powered or still so so. So they could be a little easier to kill but that seems to be a small problem that can be fixed im sure. Also we know alot of this will come to block infantry fights. what do we have that could actually give us a flank bonus?

[HeroFox]

Cannon, RoForging
Cannon, RoForging, RoBurning
Stone Thrower, RoPenetration, RoAccuracy, RoBurning w/ Engineer

[Ramius4]

But I guess if we're gonna start it here, then I'd say that Thunderers are great, Warriors got better, so did Hammerers and other units with GWs. Ironbreakers are still rather mediocre since Hammerers are better.

Units with GWs get better and worse both. You can no longer choose not to use your GW, meaning that Hammerers just lost out on a valuable option to keep them survivable in close combat. Stubborn doesn't much matter if you're all dead, losing a bunch of models every turn. Hell, even most elves have a 5+ save

Conversely, Iron Breakers now have the best standard saving throw for an infantry unit in the game at 3+ along with the 6+ ward. Temple Guard are no longer going to have the option to be a 3+ since they're forced to always use their Halberds, and Chaos Warriors would have to take a shield and nothing else in order to get there. Their Strength 4 is sufficient to deal with pretty much anything you encounter.

Miners gained tremendously with the new charging rules. You'll actually be able to reliably charge something the turn after they arrive now. Their Great Weapons are the only possible drawback, but also a good asset. You'll be hoping to hit something in the rear or flank, thereby facing less return attacks.

Another mention has to go to the Master Rune of Valaya. At 125 points it was always painful to spend it. But now, that will give you a total of +4 to dispel. Also getting rid of those really big remain in play spells is going to be big with the new improved lores.

Dwarves now have 2D6 dice in their own magic phase to dispel them with as well Got to love that.

[Aratus]

How did Hammerers get better? They have to use their GW now regardless of what they do, thats a serious problem in my opinion cause Dwarfs were never worried about doing wounds, we just wanna live through combat. This will effect Rangers too because they need to be equipped with them to be upgraded. Ironbreakers will be the best block unit we have now.

Dragon Slayers will be nice running next to our blocks to hit the enemy in the flank for flank bonus. They wont break ranks, but they get +1 for being in the flank and it reduces the attacks coming at them, they have good Initiative for dwarfs too.

Our cannons got great since they all do d6 wounds now. Grudge throwers are meh cause armor saves are allowed now against them.

Our anti magic is much stronger since we generate our own dice with our guys, unless that gets FAQ'd, but i doubt it will.

Good edition for Dwarfs, but making our units use Great Weps makes some units not viable imo. Slayers got worse too cause they cannot tarpit as well now, a lot more of them will be dying with only WS4 T4 to save them.

[Ramius4]

Totally agreed on the Hammerers. In any army that is basically made to stay where you put it, Hammerers just cannot fill that role very well anymore, nor can any Dwarf with a GW. The only things you're going to find them very useful against are enemies with Strength 3 and not a lot of Attacks.

Slayers do not get any worse. They'll die just the same, but they'll at least get their attacks in. It's a trade off in the end. One VERY nice thing with Slayers now is the increased charge range. It was extremely difficult to get them into contact with a high Toughness model before. Now it won't be nearly as hard to do. They're going to scare the crap out of large monsters as long as you have enough of them to soak up the initial casualties.

[Malorian]

Hammers and slayers will be VERY important.

Yes warriors with great weapons are nice but in general dwarfs are just too elite/expensive to have enough ranks to be steadfast against most of the hordes they will be seeing.

With that in mind the stubborn hammers and unbreakable slayers will have a key role to play.

[Mr_Foulscumm]

Personally I´d take IBs over Hammerers eveyday now. Hammerers always strike last now, no options about it. While way more attacks come their way. You´ll get 1 fight out of them and then what?

Slayers do look more promising though. But getting shot to pieces is still a great worry with the new rules for shooting.

However, Dragon Slayers did get a whole lot better seeing as there´s no slot restrictions to hold them back. We might even get to see Daemon Slayers once in a while now

[The_Varangian]

with the war machines, i'd say its a good idea to give them an engineer (now +1 W) and a Master engineer (+2W). from what i've heard, if you give the Master engineer MRO gromril, they have to take him out as well. that, in total, means we can have cannons with 6W, 3 of them with 1+armour saves, on top of whatever other runes we can fit in. However, this is just what i've heard.

[Malorian]

Still wouldn't bother with the master engineer.

If they are targetting your warmachines with cannons you are already in trouble, and really with or without the master engineer it'll take 2 cannon shots on average at destroy a warmachine with an engineer (4 wounds).

I'd rather use the points on another cannon of my own to take out his cannon!

[sulla]

Hammers and slayers will be VERY important.

Yes warriors with great weapons are nice but in general dwarfs are just too elite/expensive to have enough ranks to be steadfast against most of the hordes they will be seeing.

With that in mind the stubborn hammers and unbreakable slayers will have a key role to play.

Agreed. Relying on ranks to make you stubborn is not a solid strategy. You are basically one pie plate away from defeat.

Units like hammerers, white lions, DE khainites, empire swordmasters are all going to remain relevant because they keep their stubbornness right up to the last man.

Steadfast makes the poorer, cheaper units more reliable than they would otherwise be, but it's not impossible to do 11 wounds to a core unit with certain elites, or even a core unti and a chariot; heck, I just suffered 9 wounds from a black coach on it's own vs my witch elves the last game I played.

[Flash Felix]

Regarding GWs, I think many of you are missing the point. 7th Ed Dwarves were all about not dying, of winning by retaining SCR and hopefully not conceding too many wounds.

8th Ed completely changes that. With most infantry units now guaranteed 11+ attacks (more if wider than 5+), then there is a guarantee that ACR will almost always trump SCR.

Consider this for Dwarves;

1. I2, so usually striking last, even when charging. So ASL on Great Weapons is not an issue, except against Orcs, Saurus and Undead, as we'll strike last against everyone else anyway.

2. T4, and heavy armour, so still 5+ save even without a shield. It means we still get a moderate save against S3/S4 which are most units in the game.

3. Casualties removed from the back, so guaranteed 11+ attacks, provided 3 or more ranks. We might go last, but we will get to attack in this edition....

4. HW/Shield bonus is only 6+ ward save, and only against infantry. So it now offers less protection. So the relative advantage is less.

5. S3 does bugger all, even against T3, 5+ save troops. 11 attacks might get 3-4 wounds. With GW, that will be around 6 wounds.

We will take more casualties with GW, no doubt about it. But we will be inflicting far more casualties in return, winning the ACR struggle and actually winning the combat. If we're winning combat, it doesn't matter if we have fewer ranks, we're not the ones rolling the break test.

This doesn't work against all opponents. Against Swordmasters, Chaos Warriors and other high strength, multi-attack infantry, HW/Shield is best. But all things considered, I'm going with GW in any unit that can take them. They rock, and they'll win battles.

[SeaSwift]

In a balanced army I suggest big blocks of normal Warriors to get SCR and Steadfast to use as anvils, then smaller units of Slayers/Hammerers/GW Warriors w/ a Thane/Lord to hammer into the flank next turn and cause the real wounds.

Then fill the rest of the army with Thunderers/Quarrelers and War Machines tooled up w/ runes and Engineers.

[TonyFlow]

I think i actually would like to experiment with a master engineer. The most important reason is that he can entrench a warmachine making it -2 to hit and a defended obstacle in cc (considering these rules are still there in 8th). He cant join the warmachine though, so will have to park in a unit less than 3 inches away.

Also, at least one flame cannon will be mandatory! Absolutely brutal with no partials

[Temakador]

what im thinking about atm is blocks of around 20 quarrellers with GW put them 10 by 2 and shoot the enemy from afar then as they come close reform to 5 by 4 and cut them down with GW i ran the math and in a game were 400 pts of quarrellers with GW VS 400pts of normal dwarfs with GW quarrellers win ofc not the best against every opponent but it means are block units dont sit sround for the first few turns while the enemy gets shot by other parts of are army now we can field a gun line that can reform into blocks of GW weilding dwarfs any one else likeing this or you think normal dwarfs will outperform them overall?

[Solar_Eclipse]

Well i already made a thread about this, but consider these 2 units together:

Unit 1:
20 Dwarf Warriors with Great weapons and full command- 220 points
deployed 5x4
Static Combat res of 4 (3 ranks, standard) and 11 Great weapon attacks against units more than 3 across

OR

Unit 2
30 Dwarfs with Great weapons and Full Command- 320 points
Deployed 10x3
Static Combat Res 3 (2 ranks, standard) and 22 great weapon attacks against enemies 5 wide, 28 against 7 wide and 31 against 10 wide.

Static res is no longer so important that you need 3 ranks, standard. Kills is whats important, so focussing on that is important.

This unit of warriors will take damage, thats true. But on the other hand, it will do oh so much damage to most enemy units in combat.

[SabrX]

Wow, turning gunline into a vicious assault unit. I like it!

I love the new two rank shooting. Now I can cram in a lot more dakka!

[The_Varangian]

30 longbeards with great weapons or hand weapons and shield, full command with standard with 3x that 15 pts magic resistance rune, rangers, and throwing axes. put them in a building against anything and you'll be laughing. throwing axes at strength 5 kick ass, even though theyve got short range, magic resistance + dwarfs anti magickness blocks most spells, and the cover and armour save against shooting. sit tight, take low casualties, and axe down the enemies (i did this yesterday and the unit killed 3X its pts value)

[Ramius4]

what im thinking about atm is blocks of around 20 quarrellers with GW put them 10 by 2 and shoot the enemy from afar then as they come close reform to 5 by 4 and cut them down with GW i ran the math and in a game were 400 pts of quarrellers with GW VS 400pts of normal dwarfs with GW quarrellers win ofc not the best against every opponent but it means are block units dont sit sround for the first few turns while the enemy gets shot by other parts of are army now we can field a gun line that can reform into blocks of GW weilding dwarfs any one else likeing this or you think normal dwarfs will outperform them overall?

While I don't think it's a terrible idea, there are going to be a lot of armies that can possibly charge that unit on turn 2. Charge ranges are increased a fair amount in 8th.

Just to play devil's advocate here... The issue I can see with this setup is having to spend a turn reforming into your 5x4 block. If you do that, you lose out on a whole round of shooting. And really, do you want to spend that many extra points just for one round of shooting, and a few stand and shoot crossbows?

Now, that being said I do like the concept. If you can get two rounds of shooting before having to reform, I think it's a worthwhile unit right there.

30 longbeards with great weapons or hand weapons and shield, full command with standard with 3x that 15 pts magic resistance rune, rangers, and throwing axes. put them in a building against anything and you'll be laughing. throwing axes at strength 5 kick ass, even though theyve got short range, magic resistance + dwarfs anti magickness blocks most spells, and the cover and armour save against shooting. sit tight, take low casualties, and axe down the enemies (i did this yesterday and the unit killed 3X its pts value)

And... the enemy was dumb enough to come within range of your throwing axes why?

Don't get me wrong, I've had successes with throwing axes myself, but it's typically a one time per game thing. (by the way, it was always awesome in 7th when you came upon a large target and you had them. I'll be sad to see the 'everyone can shoot' go away with 8th).