8th Edition High Elves

[webba84]

So I have a rather large summer holiday break coming up and I thought "why not use some time to do a fan list for High Elves in 8th edition?" I've since gotten ready to start work on it and I could really do with input and suggestions from you all.

For starters, I don't want to just readjust the current units, I'd like to add some more, maybe take one or two away, in short: have some fun with the whole thing.

I was reading through my 7th ed army book and something that caught my eye was the background section with all the different provinces on it. Now most of these places have units in the book but there are a few that don't so what I'm wanting to do is provide at least one unit per province for the list. Right now we have:
Eataine - Lothern Sea Guard
Caledor - Dragon Knights, Dragon Mages
Tiranoc - Tiranoc Chariots
Ellyrion - Ellyrion Riders
Nagarythe - Shadow Warriors
Chrace - White Lions, White Lion Chariots
Avelorn - Nothing
Cothique - Nothing
Saphery - Swordmasters, Mages
Yvresse - Nothing

So we need units for Avelorn, Cothique and Yvresse. Background, stats, army roles, and so on. Really looking forward to seeing what everyone comes up with!

[Son of Sanguinius]

For Yvresse, I'd probably give a WS bonus to their spearmen. From what I've read of the area, they are a hardened people who have spent a long time fighting. They'd have better militias than many of the other provinces.

For Avelorn, the Handmaidens. In fact, I'd add the Maidens, a Hero-level Maiden character, and the Everqueen as a special character.

Cothique can be pretty well represented with the Lothern Sea Guard, but I suppose you could add some type of amphibious sea monster. Like a more controlled Skaven Abomination.

[phoenixguard09]

I wrote these rules for 7th unfortunately.

The Guardians of Tor Yvresse.

Upgrade for Spears. +3pts/model. Gain the Special Rule :Stubborn

The Wardens of Vaul. (Guard Vaul's Anvil. Another Caledor unit.)

Special Choice

WS BS S T A I W Ld Pts
5 4 3 3 1 5 1 9 15

Wargear: Dragon Armour (Because they guard a forge, the immunity to flame & heat makes sense.) Hand Weapon, Shield.

Same options as Swordmasters, White Lions, Phoenix Guard.

(Reasoning behind this was I wanted a heavily armoured Elf unit. If I find my converted unit I'll post pictures.)

Sea Rangers for Eataine: (Same as in the Sea Patrol list.) Basically just Shadow Warriors but without the hatred and they gain a free round of shooting at the beginning of the game.

Maiden Guard as a Rare choice. A Hero like Korhil/Caradryan for them would be nice. Not the Everqueen though. She's to important to go to war. We don't get our Phoenix King so why should we get the Everqueen?

I'd like to see a Hero for Swordies and Wardens of Vaul too. And Imrik back.

I have a special character, Prince Raethelas for Cothique. I also had a flying unit based off the Warhawk riders. Basically Seahawk riders. I'll try to find the rules if anyone is interested.

[Son of Sanguinius]

I wrote these rules for 7th unfortunately.

The Guardians of Tor Yvresse.

Upgrade for Spears. +3pts/model. Gain the Special Rule :Stubborn

The Wardens of Vaul. (Guard Vaul's Anvil. Another Caledor unit.)

Special Choice

WS BS S T A I W Ld Pts
5 4 3 3 1 5 1 9 15

Wargear: Dragon Armour (Because they guard a forge, the immunity to flame & heat makes sense.) Hand Weapon, Shield.

Same options as Swordmasters, White Lions, Phoenix Guard.

(Reasoning behind this was I wanted a heavily armoured Elf unit. If I find my converted unit I'll post pictures.)

Sea Rangers for Eataine: (Same as in the Sea Patrol list.) Basically just Shadow Warriors but without the hatred and they gain a free round of shooting at the beginning of the game.

Maiden Guard as a Rare choice. A Hero like Korhil/Caradryan for them would be nice. Not the Everqueen though. She's to important to go to war. We don't get our Phoenix King so why should we get the Everqueen?

I'd like to see a Hero for Swordies and Wardens of Vaul too. And Imrik back.

I have a special character, Prince Raethelas for Cothique. I also had a flying unit based off the Warhawk riders. Basically Seahawk riders. I'll try to find the rules if anyone is interested.

Very nice options there. Under the new rules, you may have overpriced Stubborn. I'm under the impression it's a lot easier to get now.

I'd like rules for the Everqueen because war comes to her, not because she marches to it. And in the direst of circumstances, her presence on the battlefield means incredible boosts to the High Elves' courage and the boons of Isha.

White Dwarf and Warhammer Chronicles have set that worked pretty well, though the Handmaidens rules left something to be desired.

[phoenixguard09]

Thanks man. Well I suppose putting the Everqueen in might not be too bad. I can see a lot of people not using her but the option to have her wouldn't hurt.

Yes Stubborn is easier to get now. I think it was something along the lines of if you outnumber your Stubborn. In fact having an upgrade to Stubborn is pretty pointless now IMO.

Our group comes up with a lot of stuff, maybe I'll ask my friend if he has nay other High Elf units that he's come up with.

I've also got Dusk Rangers from the Citadel of Dusk. It ties in with my backstory, you'll see. I'd also like to see Lion Knights of Chrace. Simply because the conversions I've seen are kickass. And Hunters of Chrace as a Core choice. Bit like Sea Guard, spears, bows and an option for great weapons. They have the Woodsmen special rule too. I think I priced them at 12pts per model with great weapons for an extra 3 per model.

With great weapons they're the same price as Swordies, Lions and Phoenixs but the stat line is'nt as good. They make up for that with versatility and bows.

[webba84]

For Yvresse, I'd probably give a WS bonus to their spearmen. From what I've read of the area, they are a hardened people who have spent a long time fighting. They'd have better militias than many of the other provinces.

I was thinking something very similar, but I would probably go with a more defensive upgrade, either heavy armour or leadership would be in order. The question is should they be core or special?

For Avelorn, the Handmaidens. In fact, I'd add the Maidens, a Hero-level Maiden character, and the Everqueen as a special character.

There's certainly a precedence for this but I have a couple of issues with it. One being the, as others have said, unlikely nature of the Everqueen in battle. It's happened iirc only two times in the entire history of the elves and since the handmaidens only guard her it seems unlikely they'd go to war without her. The Phoenix kings have seen much more battle from a background point of view.

The second issue is that of their role in the army list. Spears and bows is there already and I think that to have two simliar units with identical battlefield roles might be a little wasteful.

The background section describes Avelorn as being very fey and magical, I think it has quite a strong wood elf vibe. How about something like a treeman special character or something else that emphasizes the otherworldly aspect of the High Elves?

Cothique can be pretty well represented with the Lothern Sea Guard, but I suppose you could add some type of amphibious sea monster. Like a more controlled Skaven Abomination.

Didn't the LSG army list from a while ago have something like that? I think MC's is an area where the HE list could be expanded a bit but I'm a little worried about something that can't be thematically adapted to fight in every environment. I mean, how would an amphibious sea monster look on a mountain based table or in a cityscape?

The Guardians of Tor Yvresse.

Upgrade for Spears. +3pts/model. Gain the Special Rule :Stubborn

We all seem to be agreed about the nature of the Yvresse special unit, that is, extra tough spearmen. I don't know if the cost for Stubborn is balanced but it's definitely an option. I was leaning toward heavy armour for the guys which would also cover your desire for a HA + Shields unit in the HE list.

The Wardens of Vaul. (Guard Vaul's Anvil. Another Caledor unit.)

Special Choice

WS BS S T A I W Ld Pts
5 4 3 3 1 5 1 9 15

Wargear: Dragon Armour (Because they guard a forge, the immunity to flame & heat makes sense.) Hand Weapon, Shield.

Same options as Swordmasters, White Lions, Phoenix Guard.

(Reasoning behind this was I wanted a heavily armoured Elf unit. If I find my converted unit I'll post pictures.)

Like the idea of a heavily armoured Elf unit, not sold on it being from Caledor as we are already fairly well represented there. Otherwise I like this unit a lot and am very curious to see your pictures of them.

Sea Rangers for Eataine: (Same as in the Sea Patrol list.) Basically just Shadow Warriors but without the hatred and they gain a free round of shooting at the beginning of the game.

I was actually thinking of something along this line for the Cothique unit, since the fluff indicates that region produces great sailors. Optimized for naval combat so: unarmoured, with longbows and two hand weapons to act in support of the LSG. Cothqiue Marines or something along those lines, namewise.

Maiden Guard as a Rare choice. A Hero like Korhil/Caradryan for them would be nice. Not the Everqueen though. She's to important to go to war. We don't get our Phoenix King so why should we get the Everqueen?

I'm not convinced of having the Maiden Guard without the Everqueen since guarding her is literally their only job. Since I agree with you about not seeing the Queen in battle then I don't think they should be there either. I do think another rare choice in the list would not go astray though and I'm open to the idea of it being from Avelorn.

I'd like to see a Hero for Swordies and Wardens of Vaul too. And Imrik back.

Definitely agree on the Hero for Swordies and Imrik back as a Lord and of course if I include the Wardens of Vaul in some form there should be a hero for them too.

I have a special character, Prince Raethelas for Cothique. I also had a flying unit based off the Warhawk riders. Basically Seahawk riders. I'll try to find the rules if anyone is interested.

Oh, I do like that idea a lot. Very thematic but for some reason it makes me think of Yvresse, that bit in the book where it talks about sea clifs and soaring birds. I like the idea of the elves of that realm patrolling their long, long, coast from the backs of giant seabirds, what do you think?

I'd like rules for the Everqueen because war comes to her, not because she marches to it. And in the direst of circumstances, her presence on the battlefield means incredible boosts to the High Elves' courage and the boons of Isha.

On the issue of war coming to her if iirc that's only happened twice, once when Anarion's queen was killed and once when Tyrion saved Allariel. In both cases the elves were desperate to protect her. I just don't see the Everqueen as a battlefield unit, I like the idea that she's a spiritual and political leader and I think she should stay that way. As I've said above it is far more likely to see the Phoenix King in battle first.

Yes Stubborn is easier to get now. I think it was something along the lines of if you outnumber your Stubborn. In fact having an upgrade to Stubborn is pretty pointless now IMO.

I think for HE Stubborn isn't necessarily pointless since they will be outnumbered a large amount of the time due to high points cost. Something that just occurred to me would be a special rule for the Yvresse guardians granting them stubborn when they are outnumbered, the opposite of normal, to reflect their 'hold out against all odds' nature.

Our group comes up with a lot of stuff, maybe I'll ask my friend if he has nay other High Elf units that he's come up with.

That would be great, the more ideas the merrier!

I'd also like to see Lion Knights of Chrace. Simply because the conversions I've seen are kickass.

Wouldn't mind seeing some pictures of those either As for including them in an army list though, from a background point of view I have serious issues with heavy cavalry from Chrace. It's a small, mountainous, heavily wooded realm, the sort of terrain that is bad for any cavalry much less heavy (which requires at least open, even ground) and even worse for chariots (which requires open, even, flat ground in large amounts). I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this...

And Hunters of Chrace as a Core choice. Bit like Sea Guard, spears, bows and an option for great weapons. They have the Woodsmen special rule too. I think I priced them at 12pts per model with great weapons for an extra 3 per model.

With great weapons they're the same price as Swordies, Lions and Phoenixs but the stat line is'nt as good. They make up for that with versatility and bows.

Hunters of Chrace was an idea I had as well but I envisaged them as a special unit leading a white lion pack, the beastmasters of the HE, if you want. I was thinking that would be a good replacement for the idiotic lion chariot

As far as writing the list goes I've got the core done and am now starting on the special units, quick question though, what do people think about Silver Helms going back to core? Spearmen, Archers and Helms are the generic units of the HE army that can be found anywhere (the first two being the militia and the third being the noble retainers) so it makes sense to me, I never really liked how they went to special for 7th. What does everyone else think about that?

[Son of Sanguinius]

What else makes Avelorn unique then? Would you be willing to go with Treemen and other forest creatures? Most people I mention this to feel that this infringes upon Wood Elf territory (literally and figuratively )

[webba84]

What else makes Avelorn unique then? Would you be willing to go with Treemen and other forest creatures? Most people I mention this to feel that this infringes upon Wood Elf territory (literally and figuratively )

Wouldn't want to annoy the treehuggers, certainly, though the HE book does make it quite clear there are treemen living in Avelorn. But I've been trying to think of something else for there, something that emphasizes the otherworldly nature of the elves. Some sort of spirits or otherwise etherial unit but so far I only have this vague concept. I'm sure there's a good unit in the idea somewhere though...

[Son of Sanguinius]

Perhaps the Everqueen, the Treemen, and the Handmaidens would be made available only for certain special scenarios that play out some type of defense of Avelorn.

To answer your earlier question about the Spearmen, I say make them special unless your army includes Eltharion, in which case they'd obviously be core. Eltharion's presence could make them hate all greenskins and dark elves too.

[static grass]

For Averlorn is it not possible to remove the existing specials and replace them with Handmaidens, Dryads, Treekin, maybe keep silver helms. For the rare add Treemen remove PG.

For characters maybe add ancient and the Everqueen. Remove the rest of the SC except for Tyrion.

That would give a pure Averlorn force. with the minimum fuss.

[SeaSwift]

For Averlorn is it not possible to remove the existing specials and replace them with Handmaidens, Dryads, Treekin, maybe keep silver helms. For the rare add Treemen remove PG.

For characters maybe add ancient and the Everqueen. Remove the rest of the SC except for Tyrion.

That would give a pure Averlorn force. with the minimum fuss.

Surely Avelorn forces should just use Wood Elves' forest spirit-style units (Treemen, Dryads, Warhawks) and keep Eagles, lose most SCs but gain Everqueen.

[static grass]

Isn't that what I wrote?

HE plus WE spirit units?

[phoenixguard09]

I think what we're trying to do here is not make a pure Avelorn list, rather come up with stuff that can represent Avelorn in a larger army. I agree with Webba and his idea of some etherial unit. Maybe Wisps or something. Does bugger all damage but can fulfill a tarpit role in the list. Something like this:

WS BS S T A I W Ld
2 2 1 1 4 3 4 4

Special Rules:
Ethereal
Swarm base or whatever it is again. sorry not thinking clearly. You know when they're a swarm ro whatever. On 40mm bases.
Magic Resistant possibly. Maybe not as they have to have some weakness and Ethereal covers for everything MR doesn't unless Ethereal has changed in 8th.
Possibly even a weak short ranged attack. Even a bound spell or something.

This is all very basic but it could turn into something good.

Also Avelorn Waywatcher types. Expert archers.

I don't like Marines personally. Just the name not the idea. Idea's good. But Marines doesn't fit. Reminds me of those big annoying space types.

And yes the Sea Patrol did have a Merwyrm. It was a large amphibious thing almost a Sea Dragon that could be almost controlled by the Mages but if the Mage was killed it started to run rampant. I converted 2 out High Elf Dragons and 4 Lizardmen terradons.

I'm glad you like my Wardens and I agree that we already have quite a large showing from Caledor but I think it could work ok. If you think about it Caledor really only has Dragon Princes and the Dragons themselves. Caledor has taken a backseat with the elimination of Imrik. I think a nice afilliated infantry unit could bring back the respect the Caledorians deserve.

The Seahawk riders are open game. I haven't got any hard and fast background on them so putting them in Yvresse is fine. Leaves the problem of not having a Cothique unit. Except the "Marines."

Silver Helms Core is a good idea. And have shields come standard for 24pts.

Dragon Princes and Phoenixs back to Rare is another move I would support as they're supposed to be well, Rare.

[Son of Sanguinius]

But what's the point of playing second-class Wood Elves? Spirit units, waywatchers, and tree-kin? It would be better just to play using the tree-huggers.

And I think the op is looking for a single unit to add, rather than a side army.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, webba

[phoenixguard09]

And I think the op is looking for a single unit to add, rather than a side army.

Exactly. Now off to find my converted models.

[webba84]

I think what we're trying to do here is not make a pure Avelorn list, rather come up with stuff that can represent Avelorn in a larger army.

But what's the point of playing second-class Wood Elves? Spirit units, waywatchers, and tree-kin? It would be better just to play using the tree-huggers.

And I think the op is looking for a single unit to add, rather than a side army.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, webba

You're both absolutely right All we want from Avelorn is a unique unit that they can contribute to any High Elf army, same as Swordmasters for Saphery, Chariots from Tiranoc and so on.

I agree with Webba and his idea of some etherial unit. Maybe Wisps or something. Does bugger all damage but can fulfill a tarpit role in the list. Something like this:

WS BS S T A I W Ld
2 2 1 1 4 3 4 4

Special Rules:
Ethereal
Swarm base or whatever it is again. sorry not thinking clearly. You know when they're a swarm ro whatever. On 40mm bases.
Magic Resistant possibly. Maybe not as they have to have some weakness and Ethereal covers for everything MR doesn't unless Ethereal has changed in 8th.
Possibly even a weak short ranged attack. Even a bound spell or something.

This is all very basic but it could turn into something good.

Also Avelorn Waywatcher types. Expert archers.

Really like the wisp idea. A tarpit unit is something the HE could do with and its very thematic. Stats seem pretty good too.

Just wondering what it is about forests and expert archers, everyone always seems to make some sort of connection there

I don't like Marines personally. Just the name not the idea. Idea's good. But Marines doesn't fit. Reminds me of those big annoying space types.

Oh yes, that is an unfortunate connection, definitely want to avoid that. I guess they could just be called sailors, but thats not very interesting.

I'm glad you like my Wardens and I agree that we already have quite a large showing from Caledor but I think it could work ok. If you think about it Caledor really only has Dragon Princes and the Dragons themselves. Caledor has taken a backseat with the elimination of Imrik. I think a nice afilliated infantry unit could bring back the respect the Caledorians deserve.

Or we could bring back Imrik I'm just a little worried about having too many units, where in the army list were you thinking for them?

The Seahawk riders are open game. I haven't got any hard and fast background on them so putting them in Yvresse is fine. Leaves the problem of not having a Cothique unit. Except the "Marines."

Great

Silver Helms Core is a good idea. And have shields come standard for 24pts.

I was rather thinking of leaving them with the option to not take shields, makes them very good medium cavalry. Why do you think they should have them standard?

Dragon Princes and Phoenixs back to Rare is another move I would support as they're supposed to be well, Rare.

I'm open to all suggestions about moving units about, I'd still like to finalise what all the units will be before deciding for certain where they'll go, though.

[phoenixguard09]

Really like the wisp idea. A tarpit unit is something the HE could do with and its very thematic. Stats seem pretty good too.

Cool, glad you like em. So what about the special rules?

Just wondering what it is about forests and expert archers, everyone always seems to make some sort of connection there

Lol yeah there is a problem with that. For my part though I'm sure I remember reading something about Avelorn Archers being the best on Ulthuan. But I may have just dreamed it.

Oh yes, that is an unfortunate connection, definitely want to avoid that. I guess they could just be called sailors, but thats not very interesting.

Hmm yeah I don't really like Sailors either. The names just don't seem Elvish. And you're right, Sailors are not very interesting.

Or we could bring back Imrik I'm just a little worried about having too many units, where in the army list were you thinking for them?

I was thinking another Special. Possibly Rare. I haven't really thought of how common they'd be actually.

I was rather thinking of leaving them with the option to not take shields, makes them very good medium cavalry. Why do you think they should have them standard?

I don't personally know anyone who takes SH's without shields but then again I know very few people who actually take them anyway. I was also thinking it would be a little more cost effective.

I'm open to all suggestions about moving units about, I'd still like to finalise what all the units will be before deciding for certain where they'll go, though.

Fair enough.