Can the Tau Comprehend Chaos?

[Lordmonkey]

Some odd though struck me today after remembering a quote from Dawn of War, when the Tau encounter Chaos troops on the battlefield:

*Gasp* Human Madmen!

It then occured to me that I have never seen any fluff that describes an encounter between the Tau Empire and Chaos.

Do the Tau understand the difference between the Imperium and the Traitor Legions? Do they understand the whole Chaos thing or do the Tau just see some humans as crazy men with bigger axes?

[Shinzui]

Yes there's plenty of material on it. The Tau just don't see it in the Religious aspect that the Imperium do but rather as parody of the Mont'au. There was a great article called 'Echoes of the Mont'au' on the GW website, I tried to look it up but apparently everything not involving buy models or constructing said bought models is missing in the Tau section.

[Iracundus]

It doesn't have the same connotations that it does for humanity. Daemons are aliens from the warp, and mortal Chaos forces are seen as analogous to the Mont'au, i.e. barbarism and selfishness taken to an extreme.

I am sure they must have experienced psychic powers by now, but probably attribute it to unknown forms of energy manipulation (which in a way it is) but without the supernatural mystic aspects, or exotic or miniaturized energy weapons. Some of the more subtle powers might still be written off as "coincidence" or unusual observations rather than being seen as a power. A Tau killed by Mind War for example, might in an autopsy be concluded to have died from a sudden hemorrhagic stroke, perhaps due to a previously undiagnosed aneurysm that ruptured. Guide, Fortune, and Doom effects might be attributed to just good (or bad) luck only rather than any actual mystical psychic powers at work.

[Lordmonkey]

"the Warp is no place for the Greater Good and is best left to those foolhardy races who cannot pull back from that terrible realm."

So they know what the Warp is because they've conducted research into it and found it to be a rather silly place indeed.

I wonder if they are supposed to know about the Chaos Gods? Do they recognise them as 'real' (for want of a better word) or just try to explain them away as stories made up by humans?

[Gue'Vesa'Vre Kilo]

AFAIK the Tau do not see the Gods as 'Gods', but mortals, who does all the things 'mortals' do. They see the Chaos Gods as more a 'leader' than some entity to the chaos worshippers, like how the Imperium 'worshipped' the Emperor, although the Emperor is a mortal. In the 'Echos of Mont'au' Shinzui mentioned, the Tau even believed that they have killed 'Slaneesh', thinking that the Chaos commander is called Slaneesh, which shows how they see Chaos as a faction, a cult, a rebellious group of madman... something that is 'solid', not as... well, chaos. Deamonic incursions would seem to the Tau like some beings from another space or dimensions or any fancy scientific names for something not in their own realm, they are considered 'beings', not 'deamons', that they are all living mortals. All the 'menifestation of emotions' and stuff are not understood by the Tau.

[Lord Damocles]

'Dynamic Expansion: Echoes of the Mont'au' in White Dwarf 263, pg.20.

[Crazy Ivan]

So they know what the Warp is because they've conducted research into it and found it to be a rather silly place indeed.

Earth Caste scientist: "Behold our discovery, for the Greater Good!"
Fire Caste warrior: "The Warp!"'
Air Caste pilot: "The Warp!"
Water Caste diplomat: "The Warp!"
Kroot Shaper: "It's only another dimension."
Ethereal: "Shhh! Peoples of the Tau Empire, I bid you welcome to this new plane of existence. Let us fly... to the Warp."

*Que to a bunch of daemons, dancing wildly and singing a song about canned meat products*

Ethereal: "Well, on second thought, let's not go to the Warp - it is a silly place."
Tau: "Right."

[will564752]

I wonder if they are supposed to know about the Chaos Gods? Do they recognise them as 'real' (for want of a better word) or just try to explain them away as stories made up by humans?

I remember reading an article which told the tale of a Tau force engaging some form of Slaaneshi Cultists and/or Emperor's Children/Slaaneshi Astartes. Because they were constantly screaming 'Slaanesh [enter rude words]' the Tau commander believed that the mortal commander of the Chaos forces was in fact Slaanesh, and said something along the lines of 'Im going to destroy Slaanesh, and did, then believing they had destroyed Slaanesh. I'll try and find where this is from.

[Lordmonkey]

'Dynamic Expansion: Echoes of the Mont'au' in White Dwarf 263, pg.20.

It was quoted above

[Lord Damocles]

It was quoted above

Aye. It was; although no source from which it could actually be checked was given (disappeared from website). Anyone wanting to check the facts for themselves will most likely need the [original] White Dwarf version.

[Sinisterfence]

Crazy Ivan: that made me laugh
OT: The Tau have had contact with Chaos (see Fire Warrior, it might not be the best example, but it was BLized, so I think it's technically canon) they just don't see it how we do, none of the religious dogma attatched, just a bunch of crazy people who have strange abilities running around being messy and really rather silly... completely opposed to the clean, well ordered empire serving the greater good.
+ I think they vaguely understand psychic powers, probably in a similar manner to how they're portrayed in modern comics (i.e. X-Men)

[Iuris]

The Tau are as intelligent as humans, so they can comprehend chaos and the warp just as well as we do. It's just that they have had very little contact with either. Give them time (and opportunity to walk away from an encounter, which is not a given with Chaos...), and they'll learn and comprehend just fine.

As with everything, of course, the Tau are in for a BIIIIG surprise. Regarding everything.

After all - who says they even know about the existence of the Eye of terror? The light of the event has had only 10000 years to travel - ad a 100000 light year galaxy to cross...

[spetswalshe]

Let's be honest; the mutated human lunatics in gimp masks are actually slightly more likely to make nice with xenos than the cyborg human lunatics swinging incense all over the place. As far as the Tau are concerned, Chaos taint is going to be just like Emperor-worship; some humans can be swayed by the Greater Good, while most stand in the way and get slung in the forced-labour camps. Or fed to the Nicassar.

Out of all the various species, the Tau are probably the only one actually capable of killing Slaanesh, with their bland cuisine and senseless devotion to stuff other than having a great time. If Slaanesh had to feed on them for eternity, he/she'd probably top him/herself. It'd be like standing at a watercooler, listening to your most boring workmate drone on in a monotone about tax assessments while you know there's a huge orgy going on down in Accounting.

[Gue'Vesa'Vre Kilo]

Ivan I am definately sigging your post, if I have the capability...

[Askil the Undecided]

The question isn't whether Tau can comprehend Chaos, but can anyone?

It seems quite obvious to me that Chaos is beyond comprehension.

One might know what Chaos is, one might even know why Chaos is, but to claim one can truly comprehend Chaos is to claim that a finite mind constrained by the limitations of our reality can rationally understand an infinite mindless absence of rationality unburdened by reality (or even any meaningful awareness of it.)

[Iuris]

Chaos is just claimed to be beyond comprehension. In truth, it's just a matter of sloppy writing, retcons and 40k style overacting

[Gue'Vesa'Vre Kilo]

Well, both you and Askil are right, because of the incomprehensible nature of Chaos any attempt of comprehending would end up looking like sloppy writing.

[Green-is-best]

Of course they understand it. Lack of personal experience does not preclude understanding. We don't have gills, but we can understand why fish are capable of breathing under water. Surely the Tau would observe that certain members of certain species are able to manipulate unseen energies to produce certain types of effects. They know that the Warp exists and they know that it directly interacts with the material world. Hence, a reasonable conclusion would be that these species are somehow able to tap into the Warp and use it to produce various phenomenon. Their civil interactions with Eldar and humans would confirm that hypothesis pretty quickly.

Their perceptions of Warp entities would likely be very similar to how Crusade era humans saw it. The Warp is an eco-system like any other. Demons are warp predators. The gods are warp super predators. The gods are also alphas for giant packs. Mortal interactions with warp entities could be understood as either religious or pragmatic. Once they understood that these predators feed on energies drawn from the material world, it would be easy enough to understand why the followers of engage in such barbarism. Their actions produce energies for the predators to feed on, which increases their strength, which in turn increases the strength, political power, religious satisfaction, etc, of their mortal beneficiaries. Pretty straight forward.

Ultimately, I think the easiest litmus test is our ability to understand the Warp. Since it literally does not exist for us, yet we are able to comprehend it quite easily, there is no reason to think intelligent, scientifically minded in-universe beings would have any trouble understanding it at all.

[massey]

I don't think anyone has ever sat down with them and explained it. They have seen some evidence of psychic powers, but psykers are going to be rare enough that I doubt the Tau have been able to make any sort of detailed study. They just know that the space marine in blue armor with a glowing staff pointed at them and then Bob's head exploded. Obviously some sort of weird energy weapon. Best shoot him. Then they look at the staff afterwards and can't figure out how it works. That's okay though, they can't figure out how Eldar stuff works either. "This gun seems to be missing a trigger. How do they fire it?" Yes, they saw the Librarian praying to his staff, but hell, they saw that other marine praying to his meltagun too, so that's not so different.

As far as demons go, Tau don't have the same religious background as the Imperium. Demons seem to take a form that is rooted in ancient human myth and religion (with some Eldar flavoring mixed in as well). A human from modern day Earth would see a Bloodthirster and recognize it as some sort of demon. Tau would not. It might as well be a T-Rex to them. Or some big alien. I mean, he's not too much different from that big glowing metal thing the Eldar run around with.

It would seem likely to me that most of their encounters with Chaos would remain unexplained. "And then some hostile alien force attacked and killed Strike Force Alpha." It's not really going to be distinguishable from a Dark Eldar raid, or an encounter with some of the other weird alien races.

Concepts like corruption, demonic pacts, or things like that just aren't going to make a lot of sense to most Tau. They might theoretically understand that the Imperium calls these things "demons" and that they hold some hostile role in the imperial religion, but actual understanding what that means, and the fact that the Imperium is right would be out of the question. Normal, sensible Tau don't believe in that sort of thing. It's like in The Exorcist, when the girl is clearly possessed, and the doctors all run CAT scans on her. Tau just aren't going to believe in actual demons.

Back in the late 90s, a director in Japan produced an anime called Neon Genesis: Evangelion. It is a look at the Book of Revelations, as interpreted by a guy who was raised practicing Shintoism and Buddhism. He had... an interesting interpretation of it. In other words, it doesn't make a damn bit of sense. Likewise, Tau don't have the cultural background to understand a lot of what they would see from the warp.

[Green-is-best]

I don't think anyone has ever sat down with them and explained it. They have seen some evidence of psychic powers, but psykers are going to be rare enough that I doubt the Tau have been able to make any sort of detailed study. They just know that the space marine in blue armor with a glowing staff pointed at them and then Bob's head exploded. Obviously some sort of weird energy weapon. Best shoot him. Then they look at the staff afterwards and can't figure out how it works. That's okay though, they can't figure out how Eldar stuff works either. "This gun seems to be missing a trigger. How do they fire it?" Yes, they saw the Librarian praying to his staff, but hell, they saw that other marine praying to his meltagun too, so that's not so different.

Well, that works for a force weapon, but what about the Blood Angel librarian that produces a spear made of blood from thin air and throws it 500 yards? Or an Eldar warlock carrying nothing but a pistol and a sword creating a gigantic lightning storm? Or what about an Ork army which has guy who literally belch out energy capable of destroying a vehicle? Tau have science. After a while, they would put 2 and 2 together and figure out these species are all drawing on some kind of non-technological power. Since they already know that the Warp exists, that would be a logical source for that power.

As far as demons go, Tau don't have the same religious background as the Imperium. Demons seem to take a form that is rooted in ancient human myth and religion (with some Eldar flavoring mixed in as well). A human from modern day Earth would see a Bloodthirster and recognize it as some sort of demon. Tau would not. It might as well be a T-Rex to them. Or some big alien. I mean, he's not too much different from that big glowing metal thing the Eldar run around with.

It would seem likely to me that most of their encounters with Chaos would remain unexplained. "And then some hostile alien force attacked and killed Strike Force Alpha." It's not really going to be distinguishable from a Dark Eldar raid, or an encounter with some of the other weird alien races.

Except these aliens can burst from the body of a normal human that couldn't possibly contain their mass, hurl energy from their palms, and don't leave corpses when you kill them. Again, the first couple of times would be mysterious. After that, they'd probably start to wonder what why these beings seemed to be able to defy the conventional laws of physics despite not having any sort of technology. Their encounters with daemons during their Warp experimentation would confirm their existence. Tau wouldn't experience the religious connotations, but they would certainly acknowledge and understand what they were. In fact, they might be able to understand the Warp better than any species in 40k, since they can examine it without fear of being consumed by it.

Concepts like corruption, demonic pacts, or things like that just aren't going to make a lot of sense to most Tau. They might theoretically understand that the Imperium calls these things "demons" and that they hold some hostile role in the imperial religion, but actual understanding what that means, and the fact that the Imperium is right would be out of the question. Normal, sensible Tau don't believe in that sort of thing. It's like in The Exorcist, when the girl is clearly possessed, and the doctors all run CAT scans on her. Tau just aren't going to believe in actual demons.

Except that they aren't literal demons. (Well, they aren't demons at all, they're daemons, but anyway...) They are predatory Warp entities that are perceived by some cultures through the prism of religion. Daemon is just the moniker applied by humans, and a fairly inaccurate one at that.