Time Stands Still And Unanswered Questions

[Hunger]

@people that can't comprehend the timeline has always been slowly creeping along until recently:

You say that 40k is a setting, and therefore there is no need for the timeline to advance. This makes absolutely no sense. Even if the timeline of the setting advanced once again, what exactly is stopping you from continuing to play previous scenarios from the past? Nothing.

@those that don't want the timeline advanced because there's still too much left to explain/expand upon already:

What makes you think that if the timeline continued once again that these things could not be explained/expanded based on new fluff?

The point is that having the timeline continue could (hopefully would) give everyone more fluff to enjoy, not just, not just some people.

[...]

In short, don't be selfish. If you don't want the timeline to advance, that's perfectly fine, because den if it does you are still free to go back and play in whatever officially established past time you prefer. But by not allowing the timeline to continue, you not only disallow others to enjoy a possible official timeline they can enjoy with everyone, not just people that are kind enough to allow 'fan-fiction', but you also disallow yourself the opportunity to get new/expanded fluff.

*major facepalm*

point
---------------------> missed


I'll just quote Green _Is_Best from the previous page to answer both of these misguided statements, because he hit the nail on the head and put it better than anyone else.

To advance the storyline, something needs to happen. It can't just be the date moving forward but the status quo remaining, because that isn't actually advancing anything. The Tyranids need to eat everything or get beaten, the Necrons need to wake up the Dragon or go back to sleep/get defeated, Abaddon needs to be killed or win, and so on. So, the storyline advances, one or more of these factions are destroyed and suddenly it isn't the end times anymore because humanity has faced down one of these colossal threats and 20 years of careful theme cultivation is burned up in the process. Never going to happen.

Project2501, its not about being 'selfish' and wishing no new material to be written on the 40K universe, its about preserving the picture that GW has carefully built up in painstaking detail for the last 20 years.

To advance the story past 999.M41 by telling the tale of a star system or two that was ravaged by Chaos and giving the Tau a bit more territory is not advancing the story at all. If you want to advance the story, something grand must happen, and that is going to upset a massive part of GWs IP.

Imagine if Abaddon was killed in the 13th Crusade. His not being a playable character in 5th Edition would be the tip of the iceberg - in the background his death would send shockwaves throughout the galaxy. The Black Legion would be weakened, if it didn't totally implode and split into separate warbands like the World Eaters, the other Traitor Legions would jump on this weakness to assert themselves as the dominant Legion - meaning Chaos would, as a whole, become enbroiled in much more infighting, if not out-and-out war within the Eye, and would cease attacking Imperial systems while they sorted things out amongst themselves..

Meanwhile, now that the Chaos heat is off, the Imperium can focus its attention on taking the fight to its other enemies. A war with the despicable Tau seems likely - they seem like a very tempting target, being a small (defeatable) upstart civilisation that can be realistically crushed into the dirt before they get a chance to gain a meaningful foothold in Mankind's galaxy. One good offensive to deliver a crippling blow and BAM! No more Tau codexes on the shelves.

Now that Mankind has a much more secure position in the galaxy, what with two of its enemies reduced to nothing, the setting no longer feels like Humanity's last stand, and the terrifying, apocalyptic doom and gloom backdrop that characterises 40K is lost. Humanity is now on the offense, the aliens and traitors are on the back foot and its an Age Of Hope.

Would you really want all this to happen in the story, and want to wait patiently for months and years for GW to update codices and novels, and then want to listen to every man and his dog moan about how GW got this wrong and that wrong, and how there is this discrepancy and that discrepancy, just so you can have another 1000 years in which to picture your battles?

Would it not be less selfish for you to simply imagine your battles happening in any of the previous 40,000 years of galactic history?

[Project2501]

*major facepalm*

point
---------------------> missed

No, I stated my points in both my posts, one of which is that in the grim darkness of the far future there is only war. Based upon that, whatever happens/changes, as long as there is war and subsequently peril at seemingly every outcome, GW's vision/work remains the same/true.

I'll just quote Green _Is_Best from the previous page to answer both of these misguided statements, because he hit the nail on the head and put it better than anyone else.

You prefer Green's point of view, fantastic, you have every right to. I do not.

Project2501, its not about being 'selfish' and wishing no new material to be written on the 40K universe, its about preserving the picture that GW has carefully built up in painstaking detail for the last 20 years.

This is a joke right? Whether the timeline continues on or not, nothing is immune to change/horrendous retconning.

To advance the story past 999.M41 by telling the tale of a star system or two that was ravaged by Chaos and giving the Tau a bit more territory is not advancing the story at all. If you want to advance the story, something grand must happen, and that is going to upset a massive part of GWs IP.

That's not fact. GW can advance the storyline by havin a crazy end-of-days holocaust scenario or by simply ploughing along with nothing new or by a combination of the two. There is nothing to support "something grand must happen" other than your opinion.

Imagine if Abaddon was killed in the 13th Crusade. His not being a playable character in 5th Edition would be the tip of the iceberg - in the background his death would send shockwaves throughout the galaxy. The Black Legion would be weakened, if it didn't totally implode and split into separate warbands like the World Eaters, the other Traitor Legions would jump on this weakness to assert themselves as the dominant Legion - meaning Chaos would, as a whole, become enbroiled in much more infighting, if not out-and-out war within the Eye, so would cease attacking Imperial systems for a while.

I can easily imagine this and a multitude of other events happenning, but again, this is your opinion, Abaddon does not control every Chaos space marine, much less every CSM legion, he simply gets a hair up his butt, and decides to stir things up by promising everyone that the imperium/galaxy will burn (again) and they get all excited and give him their troops to command for it. He still has to get the support of others first. So this scenario, while great, does not necessarily have to have these shocking ramifications your giving. Chaos, being chaos, could simply find someone else to take his place just as easily.

Would you really want all this to happen in the story, and want to wait patiently for months and years for GW to update codices and novels, and then want to listen to everyone moan about how GW got this wrong and that wrong, and how there is this discrepancy and that discrepancy, just so you can have another 1000 years in which to picture your battles?

Do you really think that this isn't happenning as we type?

Would it not be less selfish for you to simply imagine your battles happening in any of the previous 40,000 years of galactic history?

As I've already said, it would not be as selfish to allow people to either play in the new future timeline scenarios or in previously established scenarios as opposed to just previously established scenarios.

[Green-is-best]

That's not fact. GW can advance the storyline by havin a crazy end-of-days holocaust scenario or by simply ploughing along with nothing new or by a combination of the two. There is nothing to support "something grand must happen" other than your opinion.

Really, something huge DOES have to happen. M41.999 is a cliffhanger of the grandest sort. For the story to advance, that cliffhanger must be resolved, otherwise the story doesn't actually move forward.

Think about it like this: imagine a TV series about the Cold War. Imagine the whole season is building up tension that will lead to a confrontation between the United States and the Soviet Union. In the last episode of the season, the superpowers are poised for all-out, nuclear holocaust, civilization ending war. In the last 10 minutes of the show, bombers are scrambled, nuclear submarines are at launch depth, and missile silos are open. Everything is waiting for the president to give the order. He's got the phone in his hand. And....cut to the "To be continued" title card.

That's where 40k is now.

Now, imagine what the next episode of our Cold War show must be like. One of three things MUST happen. One possibility is to keep the showdown going. A writer could tell all kinds of stories in this environment. Maybe there's an episode on a submarine where the crew isn't sure if the launch codes are legitimate or an episode with American forces fighting a shadow war against Soviet proxies somewhere in Africa.

Alternately, World War 3 could get started, but the nukes haven't started flying yet. There could be episodes about tank battalions battling for Berlin or dog fights over the Sea of Japan. But, doomsday is still waiting for another episode or season.

Either way, the main story doesn't actually advance since the primary conflict isn't resolved. We're just getting side stories. 40k's setting is a blend of that. There are small engagements with big baddies and lots of little brush wars.

Alternately, the story line can move forward and the whole affair is resolved. Maybe it all works out. Maybe everyone gets blown up. Either way, it isn't about the Cold War anymore, it is about something else, either the detente and peace agreements following a near catastrophe or post nuclear war survival. That's what the advancement of the 40k storyline means. Either everything works out somehow or another or humanity bites the big one. Regardless of the actual outcome, the story's primary conflict is resolved and must concern itself with a new arc.

Therefore, for 40k to retain its setting, it cannot advance.

Sorry to go on for so long, but I just love talking about TV.

[Vikingkingq]

One thought that comes to mind is - why not create multiple outcomes?

It takes more work, certainly, but you could certainly advance the timeline in mutually contradictory lines - an Imperial future, a Chaos future, an Eldar future, etc. Support all of the lines, so that players can have their cake and eat it too - Imperial fans can play out what happens if Abaddon dies and keep their Ursarkar Creed minis in play, and Chaos can play out what happens if Cadia falls and keep their Abaddon minis in play, and neither side is excluded from having their fun.

I'd argue it's very much in the spirit of the propagandistic, contradictory armybooks to develop propagandistic, contradictory futures.

[Gaargod]

@Green: I thought the Ciaphas Cain novels, as written literature by the black library, are canon.

Yes and no. GW have said all fluff is written from the viewpoint of the individual, and therefore does not necessarily represent the whole picture (sometimes not even close). Furthermore, no literature is safe from retconning. If GW decide the Imperium is going to asplode before the in-universe writing of the memoirs, then its damm well going to asplode.

They also kind of like to pick and choose stuff. For example in fantasy, none of the Storm of Chaos stuff gets mentioned now, at all. They just ignore that whole episode.

In short, don't be selfish. If you don't want the timeline to advance, that's perfectly fine, because den if it does you are still free to go back and play in whatever officially established past time you prefer. But by not allowing the timeline to continue, you not only disallow others to enjoy a possible official timeline they can enjoy with everyone, not just people that are kind enough to allow 'fan-fiction', but you also disallow yourself the opportunity to get new/expanded fluff.

You act like our actions matter?

Remember, this website is just for the discussions of ideas and opinions (and showing off your projects). Someone saying 'I want the timeline to advance' will have the exact same effect of someone saying 'I want the timeline to remain as it is'. Zero. This isn't like a discussion of developers evaluating pros and cons, its just what people would like to happen (and the obligatory ranting about it, no matter what).


Finally, fan-fiction is often as good or better than official fluff (which is after all dictated by business concerns). There must be dozens of fan fictions about what will happen in x years (certainly, pretty much everyone has their own opinion/wishlist of what would happen). If you decide option A is the correct one, that means options B-Z are now invalid - whereas they might actually be better! Certainly in any case, it will be no longer be the same setting.
In 40k, if Abaddon somehow manages to fluke a win and hold onto it, that means most Imperial forces are screwed. Certainly within the next 100 years or so the Imperium would be fragmented horribly and likely all but wiped out. Etc to apply to any individual race.

[Phoebus]

Green-is-best,

The Ciaphas Cain novels are no more and no less "canon" than other books in the BL line. As to the reliability of their narrator? This is ironic, indeed, since a recurring theme in those books is the idea that Cain's self-deprecating humor and recollections of cowardice are not, in fact, honest.

That having been said, I agree with your notions in regards to advancing the plot/timeline... though perhaps not with the example you used (the TV series one).

[Green-is-best]

Green-is-best,

The Ciaphas Cain novels are no more and no less "canon" than other books in the BL line. As to the reliability of their narrator? This is ironic, indeed, since a recurring theme in those books is the idea that Cain's self-deprecating humor and recollections of cowardice are not, in fact, honest.

Yeah, his sense of humor and the like was my point. The whole novel is kind of an out of theme side plot. Regarding the point on "canon," though they may be considered part of the official source material, in my experience the community has generally considered statements regarding post M41.999 events to be an uncorrectable slip up in Sandy Mitchell's writing, Mitchell's personal account of how he feels things should play out, or something similar. The consensus seems to be that GW is not leaking any kind of plan for how things will play out, since most folks seem to agree that GW probably doesn't have that plan. The fact that Mitchell's work is the only "canonical" source that mentions events past M41.999 tends to support these notions.

That having been said, I agree with your notions in regards to advancing the plot/timeline... though perhaps not with the example you used (the TV series one).

Out of curiosity, where do you disagree with the TV example? I'm just wondering because I happened to really like it.

[Phoebus]

Green-is-best,

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on the Cain matter. His sense of humor hardly disqualifies him from being a resident of Warhammer 41K. GW has control over their IP, and it is a known fact that authors are consulted in regards to the IP and the subject matter they choose to write about. See Dembski-Bowden's statements on this side in regards to the material support he received when writing Helsreach. Editors are there for a reason, and if Sandy Mitchell really had screwed up in putting someone 2-200 years (or whatever it was) in the future, I think someone from the Company would have stepped up by now to say as much.

The reasons why I disagreed with the example was because it didn't necessarily offer (what I felt to be) a proper parallel to what is happening in 40k now.

The Cold War was a period of relative inactivity (as compared to, say, World War II). Your scenario sees this ended with the threat of imminent conflict on a scale far greater than before.

40k, though, just came out of the 13th Black Crusade, which was precisely that conflict of greater-than-normal scale. There are implied threats in the horizon, but that's exactly what the Cold War was to us.

The timeline could advance, but it's theoretically difficult for the company in question (GW) to do so. In this we agree.

That having been said, it's not as if it were impossible. The Thirteenth Black Crusade proved that characters can die, and gamers can ostensibly decide the direction of the hobby depending on which side wins the big battle. The issue is to prevent your customer base from being desensitized by too-frequent doomsday scenarios. That's where marketing research and designers come in. A character might get the axe, or a whole Chapter might eat it. Have you, as an IP holder, done your homework and prepared replacement pieces to step up and a plausible advancement in the background universe/metaplot to satisfy your customer?

[Green-is-best]

Green-is-best,

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on the Cain matter. His sense of humor hardly disqualifies him from being a resident of Warhammer 41K. GW has control over their IP, and it is a known fact that authors are consulted in regards to the IP and the subject matter they choose to write about. See Dembski-Bowden's statements on this side in regards to the material support he received when writing Helsreach. Editors are there for a reason, and if Sandy Mitchell really had screwed up in putting someone 2-200 years (or whatever it was) in the future, I think someone from the Company would have stepped up by now to say as much.

The reasons why I disagreed with the example was because it didn't necessarily offer (what I felt to be) a proper parallel to what is happening in 40k now.

The Cold War was a period of relative inactivity (as compared to, say, World War II). Your scenario sees this ended with the threat of imminent conflict on a scale far greater than before.

40k, though, just came out of the 13th Black Crusade, which was precisely that conflict of greater-than-normal scale. There are implied threats in the horizon, but that's exactly what the Cold War was to us.

Fair enough, thanks for the reply.

[Carlos]

Games Workshop don't need to advance the fluff at all. They hold the eternal power of the Retcon, and can easily change the past of the 40K universe to have positive outcomes in the present. Case in point: 1st edition. There are so many nuggets of fluff from 1st edition (Starchild, Sensei etc) that have since been completely written out of the background because TBH they were crap.
The problem is many gamers seem to think everything EVER written by GW is to be taken as canon which couldn't be further from the truth. Only the most recent codices/rulebook can be taken as the truth.

Id expect GW to maybe change a few things with the next Necron Codex, for example changing the number of C'tan at large in the Galaxy to 6-7 to give them more to play with without waking the Dragon and screwing things up. I see nothing wrong with this yet there would be a strong protest from some deluded players literally emailing GW asking which version of the Necron Codex is actually right *Facepalm*

We also have 10,000 years of background to play with. As of 999.M41 the Tanith are probably extinct as the Gaunt's Ghosts books take place earlier. Eldrad is dead, yet many still play him. Farsight is probably dead yet he can still be fielded.

For example, I have been running a 15 year campaign on the Imperial World of Cuprium. The story goes that within Cuprium (on the Eastern Fringe) is a weapon from before the Fall that the eldar constructed to create a huge warp rift in the fabric of reality. This was initially meant as a trap for the C'tan but the weapon was never used and forgotten about until the Chaos Lord Janos Arbatel discovered its existence and promptly invaded the world.
Arbatel's Lost (his warband) have since wiped all imperial and Eldar resistance from the world only to have it re-invaded by the Tau during the 3rd phase expansion who were oblivious to its importance and fresh imperial reinforcements. We even wrote in that Arbatel manipulated Abaddon to instigate the 13th black crusade as an unimaginably vast diversionary tactic to divert imperial attention away from the war!

The current fluff is yours to play with as you wish.

[Shinzui]

I wished timeline moved forward like it did during the 90s/ early 2000s. Some of the best fluff was made during that time and it culminated in the EOT campaign which was probably the best experience with warhammer I've had.

I wonder if it had been different if the Imperium won and GW didn't chicken out of their promises during EOT. Ah well I'll just had to put up with the retconning.

I see in 10 years time GW will be in trouble, Shoving more and more detail in existing events won't work forever. Its funny reading how Battle for Maccrage has been completely changed for the worse just to show how badass Calgar is, then how badass the Swarmlord is.

Who knows next thing the Eldar were secretly present and attacked the swarmlord allowing Calgar to escape... just to show how badass they are.

[Iracundus]

We also have 10,000 years of background to play with. As of 999.M41 the Tanith are probably extinct as the Gaunt's Ghosts books take place earlier. Eldrad is dead, yet many still play him. Farsight is probably dead yet he can still be fielded.

Keeping the timeline static or saying "Play in the past" does no good for certain races as they weren't active or didn't exist in the past. The Tau have only arisen within the last few hundred years so all their background is crammed into that space of time. No Tau player could ever play a historical campaign set in the past beyond their debut into the setting. The Tyranids only really entered the scene with Behemoth so again a Tyranid player could not play in the past. Necrons are slightly better but even then they only became really active relatively recently so again beyond a certain point in time, no Necrons could realistically play. Saying "play in the past" is effectively consigning the players of these factions to an eternal limbo since they can never participate as their particular (non-existent or inactive) faction. Playing in the past is only an option for SOME armies, not all, so it is not the panacea solution to all ills that you make it out to be.

References to M42 are not limited purely to Cain. Cadian Blood is described as taking place as 3 years after Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade first started attacking Cadia, which is 999.M41

Some of the background that people take for granted today, such as Tycho or Yarrick's ongoing rivalry with Ghaz is a direct consequence of background and timeline advancement, which was occurring steadily in the past editions of 40K. Tycho was originally just a normal generic captain, until being felled by a psychic power during a battle report. Over time then he developed as a character as the timeline advanced until his final death on Armageddon. Likewise, Yarrick developed his rivalry through being defeated in an Epic battle report on Golgotha and then that being subsequently incorporated into the background. The same goes for Ichar IV's write in campaign. All of these did not spring ex nihilio but developed progressively over the real life years.

Even though the overall status quo of the galactic Imperium is still largely the same, the individual characters' stories, and the stories of individual conflicts have changed. Timeline advancement need not upset the entire status quo, yet it can still change things on a smaller scale. Small change is still significant over time, as such a retrospective shows.

[AndrewGPaul]

Games Workshop don't need to advance the fluff at all. They hold the eternal power of the Retcon, and can easily change the past of the 40K universe to have positive outcomes in the present. Case in point: 1st edition. There are so many nuggets of fluff from 1st edition (Starchild, Sensei etc) that have since been completely written out of the background because TBH they were crap.

The thing is, those things you mention were not "retconned". There are remarkably few retcons in the setting, mostly to do with the details of Space Marines. The Sensei aren't mentioned any more by name, but no-one's said they never existed. Even the Squats weren't retconned; just killed off.

[Iuris]

Retcon by omission...

[Malice313]

I've never really cared about the time line of 40k that much. It doesn't really need to progress, as you can get as much out of regressing it as you can progressing it considering there is whole ages of man that are untouched fluff-wise.

[Iracundus]

Read my earlier post a mere 3 posts above this one. Not all factions have that much past to play with, so stop blithely ignoring or dismissing players of those factions as if they were non-existent. They could never play as their chosen faction in historical campaigns set beyond the start date of their faction.

[Malice313]

Read my earlier post a mere 3 posts above this one. Not all factions have that much past to play with, so stop blithely ignoring or dismissing players of those factions as if they were non-existent.

Being so rude just makes be taken less seriously.

I understood what you were saying. I'll reiterate myself by saying it doesn't really need to progress.

I was just saying that if you don't want to play 4+k as it currently stands; progress is not the only option that has to be taken. I'm not sure why this invited such vitriol. The very nature of change implies certain things becoming redundant and other emerging anew.

And GW would never discontinue an entire faction from their range to the ire of those that play it.

I'll just go play my new Squat army...

[Shinzui]

If GW discontinues a faction its because of profit, nothing else.

[Malice313]

Profit is a major part of it definitely. There was also a new direction in concept at the time which was an additional motivation.

I was just using it to emphasise that making certain armies unplayable is not a new thing for GW (I have some lead World Eater Devastators who as collecting dust as testament to this), nor is making them disappear altogether.

So to say that I'm the one blithely ignoring players of certain factions seems more like anger displacement than a statement against suggesting other periods in the time line other than just progressing it if one were to actually want to change the setting.

[Iracundus]

There is no room for some races other than timeline advancement.

The Tau only advanced from their stone age and appeared on the scene within the last few centuries. Most of their subsequent wargear is depicted as advancements within the following Expansions. Their travel is already depicted as being slower than warp travel. Having ever more advances crammed in starts to break suspension of disbelief at both the pace of advancement, the pace of manufacturing, and the pace at which characters can hop across the stars.

The Tyranids only appeared with Behemoth, again only a few centuries ago. All other Hive Fleets have been retconned in the intervening time between Behemoth and Leviathan, and as it is the last Codex has been stuffing new hive fleets all over the place. To further stuff yet more hive fleets starts again to break suspension of disbelief as to why the galaxy hasn't already been completely overrun. Nor do the Tyranids have any past to play with beyond Behemoth, not if they are to be played as Tyranids.

Necrons are only just starting to awake and begin Harvesting. The Nightbringer is described as awakening only within the last few years. The Deceiver, though active for longer, still awakened at a relatively recent point in the past, which again constrains Necron activity.

Before people try to invoke "counts as", players generally want to play their faction as that faction, and not to be consigned to "count" their faction as just another random minor race for the Imperium (or Eldar or Orks) to treat as cannon fodder.

These are just some of the examples why dwelling in the past is NOT possible for all armies or all players. Nor is endless expansion within the very limited timeline they have possible without looking ridiculous and causing even more continuity errors. So people should stop with the whole "We have 10,000 or more years to play with" statements. Only some races and factions do. The others don't and would be confined to a limbo of either being left out, or forced to count their faction as something different from what the faction was bought as. This is more than just the odd outdated unit choice but entire factions and armies. There is more to 40K than just those races with long histories and hence why the term "We" is not accurate in the least.

Timeline advancement does not preclude developing the past, and does not lock out any races or factions. Focusing purely on the past however does.