Well, I'm far from decided, certainly a load of ideas to think on at least! The -1 supporting attack rank rule having no effect on units with only one rank isn't entirely silly though as I don't think a small unit would suffer much from being driven back as they're not being pressed forward by their comrades so would be able to move more freely.
-1 to hit is the more powerful rule I think as Leadership 9 tests aren't too often failed (well, I fail them all the time but I think I'm cursed ), and cuts down on wounds more than losing a rank of supporting attacks, plus it helps against shooting (though Ironbreakers aren't easy to hurt with shooting usually anyway).
Is going to be a tricky one to work out what the value of each rule is and see if it ends up making them too expensive. I like the idea of both rules, but doing both would probably be excessive
Just had a (possibly mad) idea for Dwarven Magic Resistance. The current +2 to dispel seems a bit odd, primarily due to the virtual minimum level 2 wizard in every other army you will ever face as dwarfs, meaning we are at best dispelling on level par with every other army around. Is there a possibility of the dwarven anti-magic to be as simple as...
"No models in a dwarf army can never be affected by any spell cast with irresistible force"
This would be the only Magic benefit we would receive other than our runic items, but would remove the one auto-win PS/power scroll combo that now haunts our dreams. A normally cast PS would still wreck us if undispelled, but at least we would have a fair chance against it now, and overall would provide dwarfs with a unique magic defence, but one that is not over powerful (I hope...).
It's an interesting idea certainly, though there are some issues. Firstly; really it's the broken spells that are the problem rather than irresistible force, but unfortunately they're likely here to stay for the immediate future. The other issue is how exactly does it apply? If it's a blanket effect then it complicates team games as the presence of even a tiny Dwarf army could make you immune to irresistible force. It would likely have to be more along the lines of "Any spell target at, or cast from, any point within 12" of a Dwarf unit may not be cast with Irresistible Force", but then that potentially wouldn't affect Purple Sun anyway...is a tricky one!
I don't like it but...
"Armies consisting of just Dwarf models gain no benefit or suffer any penalty from rolling 2 or more 6's casting a spell or attempting dispell in any magic phase. The effects or Irrestible force are negated by this rule."
Making opponents unable to cast with IF would be more appropriate, double 6's would still cast the spell successfully assuming that the casting value is met, but it wouldn't be cast with IF."Armies consisting of just Dwarf models gain no benefit or suffer any penalty from rolling 2 or more 6's casting a spell or attempting dispell in any magic phase. The effects or Irrestible force are negated by this rule."
I'll have your *bleep* on a stick for that!
I'll have your *bleep* on a stick for that!
Primarily I was just after the dwarfs not having IF being used against them as a unique army mechanism, but as you rightly said this would make them more open to "normal" powered spells.
The way I looked at that issue was that the average dwarf army will have at least one rune smith/lord who will almost always take MRoB and 1-2 Ro Spell Breaking, giving them a fairly large anti-magic pool anyway.
The other option would have been a blanket MR 2, as this is far less powerful in todays PS and DB magic oriented world. It would leave the dispel dice to be used on the more powerful hexes and vortexs and the "lesser" magic missiles could be let through as the MR should be enough to deflect most of the damage that penetrates our armour.
Regardless of the end solution there are really only a couple of spells (pit and purple) which will auto-end a dwarf army.
Another idea - instead of the dwarfs having a bonus to dispell, perhaps they could increase the roll needed for opponents to cast the spell, say +2 to difficulty for the army, then +1 per rune smith, +2 per rune lord cumulative.
- Army gains +2 to dispel attempts, and may re-roll failed characteristic tests caused by magic.
- Runesmiths give a channeling attempt, and access to anti-magic runes instead of a flag +1 dispel dice.
- Runelords can dispel with +3 (as with any level 3 wizard), as well as give a channeling attempt and access to anti-magic runes.
- Rune of spellbreaking and rune of spelleating are master runes, restricting their use as with dispel scrolls.
- Rune of spellbinding improves channeling attempts and is stackable (no longer a master rune).
- Master Rune of Valaya boosts all channeling attempts for Runesmiths/Runelords, and auto-dispels nearby remains in play effects.
It's worked well in play-testing so far, though I haven't had nearly as many games as I'd like; they're not a dispelling power house with this mechanic but when spells do get through the Dwarfs are fairly resilient to their effects, so it's less that they can stop magic, and more that they can withstand it, which does kind of cover irresistible force abuse to some degree.
As it is though with this system Runesmiths and Runelords are probably a bit overpriced, I was thinking to give them built in magic resistance to compensate so you can slap them into a unit and gain that extra protection against spells that don't trigger characteristic tests.
Just wanting to be clear what my current mechanic is for those who haven't kept up-to-date with this list. Loving all the alternative ideas though!
Still undecided about magic, but in the mean time here's version 2.2.7 in the first post!
Main changes are the addition to Ironbreakers (I went for -1 supporting rank for enemies to the front, as it's a bit simpler and because -1 to hit seems like it would need to cost a bit more), reduced Gyrocopter presence, and various other minor tweaks including a re-purposing of the Rune of Brotherhood.
Still haven't had time to really think much on special characters.
Has anyone tried the Flame Cannon rules in a game yet? I played a couple and found it to be fun; it's potentially more devastating than the Organ Gun, but is a lot less reliable, I've bumped its cost slightly to 150 points on account of the carnage it can potentially cause.
Version 2.2.8 is now available for download in the first post!
Changes are many, but some key ones include:
- First draft of special characters, the change list summarises these in detail already so I won't bother repeating it here, the characters chosen so far are Thorgrim Grudgebearer, Thorek Ironbrow, Ungrim Ironfist as Lords, and Grombrindal, Malakai Makaisson and Josef Bugman as Heroes. No special champion characters at this point, one for miners is my main thought at this time.
- Removed Hammerer's function as bodyguard in favour of a more specialised unit, the King's Guard. Basically expensive Stubborn elite Dwarfs with Gromril Armour and the ability to choose to fight with either Hand Weapons & Shields or Great Weapons. Essentially they are the "best of both" from Ironbreakers and Hammerers, but lacking the special rules so not quite as good as either, focusing instead on flexibility and protection for the lord with a special Look Out Sir! save.
- Separated Troll Slayers and Giant Slayers into different entries; Troll Slayers are Special with the option of a Giant Slayer as champion, while Giant Slayers are 0-1 and Rare except when fielded with Ungrim Ironfist.
- Millions of minor tweaks all over the place!
Okay, so I've got some more updates in the works, and since I finally finished building my War Horn I'm probably gonna chuck some pictures of it in so people can see what my dream plastic kit for the Dwarfs would look like, just need to finish Thorgrim Grudgebearer so I can show off the War Throne variant (obviously he's a little grand but I can't green-stuff a sitting Dwarf to save myself).
Anyway, I wanted people's thoughts; currently a few runes, most notably the Master Rune of Grungni, and I suppose the Rune Magic, War Horn, etc. only effect friendly Dwarfs units. Do you guys think they should affect friendly units regardless of race (as other effects do in other lists), or are the Dwarfs fearsome enough already as an ally? I'm thinking their revised dispel abilities make them pretty handy as an ally already.
I don't think you should put too much time (read; any) into worrying about alliances. The rules are not designed for competitive play and allow plenty of other combos from other armies.
Only thing I would really add is that I think the rune of penetrating should be a master rune. S5 templates really suck the fun out of the game, especially vs t3 blocks. Just because a couple of other older books also have s5 doesn't mean you should need it in a new version of the book IMO.
Druchii.net for all your Dark Elf needs
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." George Bernard Shaw
∞+1 (just because I can).
Curses! You found me!
Version 2.3 is now available in the first post!
A whole heap of changes that you'll just need to check out yourselves, but the highlights include:
- Slayers no longer Skirmishers (except Doomseekers), instead they have Swiftstride. I decided that working around the restrictions of Skirmishers was just too much trouble. That said, the Fast Cavalry rules are possible fit due to the ability to freely reform while still having ranks.
- Trimmed down the Dwarf rune list to a mere 3 pages, with Master Runes generally more powerful and more expensive than before; giving an 8th edition-esque mix of a small number of powerful runes, and a decent selection of mix-and-match runes.
- Runesmiths now gain special bound spell abilities for bolstering their units; mostly things like Flaming Attacks, Magical Attacks, re-roll failed saves on 1's and other relatively minor, but nonetheless useful abilities.
- Changed the way that Dwarf Handguns work, they can now shoot at 16" with quick to fire, or 24" with move or fire, making them very flexible, but less static than now.
- Had yet another go at the Flame Cannon, though I'm enjoying this new one.
- Miners gain a Tunnel Bore, a though, expensive, monster hunting machine with Strength 8.
I was originally going to delay this update so I could post some pictures of my Warhorn prototype, but it's taking too long to get a free day where I can get my Realm of Battle out to completely finish (still needs some final snow highlights and a layer of purity seal).
Okay, so it's been a while since I posted to this again!
I've opted for yet another overhaul (v2.4.0) which you can find in the first post. I've thrown out a lot, so special characters are currently omitted while I settle on the core list again, but I'm putting it up now to try to get some feedback.
Here's a summary of the major changes from the current official army book:
- Shield Wall - I decided to ditch my Hammer & Anvil mechanic as being too similar to (current, not sure about new) Empire detachments. Instead I've added a rule which allows Dwarf units using Hand Weapon & Shields to gain an additional +1 armour save when charged from the front. Might not sound like much, but when it's a difference of 4+ to 3+ on basic warriors it suddenly makes Dwarf units even better at surviving a charge, which in turn allows the rest of the army time to respond; so it fits the same kind of niché as Hammer & Anvil did, but possibly in a better way for the Dwarf army.
- Gromril Armour and Ancestor Masks - Added a new armour item, the Ancestor Mask. Gives a simple +1 armour save, representing the total head protection that these iconic masks grant, allowing for a greater range of armour saves in what really should be an army all about armour. That said, the bulk of units still only have Heavy Armour, not trying to go over the top after all (though I often fail). Gromril Armour also ignores the Armour Piercing rule, so this distinguishes units with Gromril Armour from those with Heavy Armour + Ancestor Masks.
- Distinguishing Units - Probably my biggest aim is to differentiate what are currently a set of largely indistinguishable unit types in the book, by adding a bit more of a reason for taking each. One crucial change is that the elite Dwarf stat-line no longer includes Strength 4 automatically, hopefully it fits well however:
- Longbeards - Aimed at being flexible and dependable, practically a no-brainer for building your army around with resistance to Panic (for other units too) and the ability to switch weapon load outs at the start of a combat, making them good all-rounders.
- Hearth Guard - Replacement for Hammerers, this special choice combines great weapons, improved Weapon Skill and Hatred for a really hard-hitting unit that can also added Ancestor Masks for a bit of extra staying power.
- Ironbreakers - Gromril Armour, Ancestor Mask, Hand Weapon & Shield with Shield Wall yup! That's a 2+ armour save vs ranged attacks, or 1+ in combat when charged from the front. They also reduce (some) supporting attacks when charged, making them pretty much impossible to shift, no matter how devastating the charge.
- Hammerers - The ultimate bodyguards; two-Wound, Toughness 5 Dwarf infantry! Not cheap, but when it comes it protecting your crucial characters or just plain hurting your enemies, you can't go amiss with this!
- Slayers - Similar to how I had them in my previous version; Swiftstride on the charge for speed, basically the line-up scales with small stat-boosts and stacking rules, with two separate units, so it goes; Troll Slayers with Immune to Psychology and Killing Blow, Giant Slayers add Strength 4 and Devastating Charge, Dragon Slayers add Stubborn and Monstrous Killing Blow (hurts Monstrous types) and Daemon Slayers add Unbreakable and Heroic Killing Blow. Doomseekers are a Dragon Slayer upgrade, making them independent as they run around smashing enemies with Impact Hits in a blind Frenzy, at least until it runs out.
- Runesmiths - The role of Dwarf anti-magic is slightly different, with no extra Dispel dice at all. Instead all Dwarf Dispel attempts get a +2 bonus, and Dwarfs can re-roll magically induced characteristic tests. Runesmiths count as Dispel-only wizards for channeling, with Runelords able to make Dispel attempts with a +1 bonus (for a total of +3). Anvil of Doom is implemented as a magical lore with the lore attribute preventing Miscasts (Power Dice are lost instead). Runesmiths do get a more active role though as they can now purchase Runic Sigils, a separate category of runes for their staffs which include some old favourites (Rune of Spellbreaking) as well as boosts to channeling attempts, and a number of innate spells, allowing for semi-reliable magic casting, focused on minor buffs and hexes that they can mix and match since they choose what their load-out is. Re-rolling 1's for armour saves could be particularly nasty with a certain heavily armoured unit type I just mentioned
- New Stuff - Trying to keep in mind the kind of kits that might accompany a Dwarf release, I've looked at new stuff. This include two big kits; the first is the borne platform, either a war-horn, war-throne, or living ancestor tombs, basically a bigger form of shield-bearer style "mount" with four bearers, with the war horn providing buffs and the other two providing ridden monster style hitting power/defence, but in a more Dwarf-like style. The second is the Tunnel Bore/Death Roller; the former allows a unit of miners to appear anywhere on the battlefield, and can add some extra hitting power to them, while the second functions like a very hard to destroy chariot, though it's not the faster out there, allowing for some hard-hitting damage ideal for crushing an enemy's flank. Otherwise, a new Hammerer set would also pair off with the Runeguard, a similar, multi-wound unit aimed as a Runesmith's more defensive bodyguard, bolstered by runic upgrades.
- Guilds - I've tried to organise the list with a bit more focus on the guild-structured Dwarfs, with characters playing a key role on making your list themed more towards Miners and Slayers, as well as allowing you to take more of the new Hammerers and Runeguard as bodyguards for Lords/Thanes and Runelords/Runesmiths respectively.
- War Machines - Not many changes, I gave up on new Flame Cannon rules as I just couldn't settle on any, instead of I've gone for a Warpfire Thrower with Artillery Dice re-roll (with Engineer) and high Panic dealing potential, justifying its 140 point cost. Gyrocopters can be taken in squadrons, cheaper individually but now a very powerful fast unit.
Anyway, this has gotten a bit too long as a summary, it's probably better just to read the actual list
Please give feedback if you can!
I'm not going to do special characters just yet, but the basic idea is for Josef Bugman as a Ranger special champion (Pathfinder), with Grombrindal as a sort of time-of-need Hero that's tough to kill, and could crop up in any unit. Thorek Ironbrow and Thorgrim Grudgebearer will be about the same as usual, and Malakai Makaisson . For anyone interested in the special character side of things, I'm particularly interested in special characters that would make sense as special champions; Dwarfs seem to have a proportion of lord-level characters such as kings and a queen, not so many hero and champion candidates!
Yet another update, this time v2.4.1 in the first post.
There's a lot of changes, but I'll try to highlight a few important ones:
- Point Balancing - I've tweaked lots of point costs, probably badly but with the intent being that units more likely to be bolstered by are slightly more expensive to represent this.
- Character Boosts - Thanes and Dwarf Lords grant Stubborn, making them a good choice for block infantry that needs to stay put. Various character types have some extra options, can take a slayer as the army general, but this prevents taking other character types.
- Honour Guard - Now a rule, many characters can choose an honour guard (types noted on their page) which they must join and can't leave. Taking an honour guard can reduce its rarity and remove any normal restrictions. In this way it's possible to theme the army in almost any way. Of note this is now the only way to field Thunderers as Core since they are now Special, by taking them as Honour Guard to a Master Engineer.
- New Stuff - More New Stuff! Okay, it's actually more infantry varieties. Specifically, Giant Slayers now join the multi-wound Rare unit club with Hammerers and Runeguard. In addition, there are now 0-1 special units which belong to the various priesthoods of the Ancestor Gods. These are units focused on a mandatory mini-character that functions as their champion. I picture the first three as possible kit, with Dwarfs in a type of robe with light armour, and interchangeable fronts and weapon options:
- Brotherhood of Grungni - are a defensively oriented unit with Fight in Extra Rank as standard, as well as +1 Strength if they didn't charge. They can slowly push back enemy units if they have the advantage in Strength or numbers. Honour guard for thanes/lords.
- Brother of Grimnir - offensively oriented unit with some similar skills to slayers (two hand weapons & great weapons to choose from) but with Wards of Grimnir and Light Armour. They're notable for Always Strikes First (not actually that powerful on them) and the ability for their character to make them become frenzied. Honour guard for slayers.
- Sisterhood of Valaya - weak unit with Ward Save and Magic Resistance, the priestess is able to cast a minor healing spell (D3 + 1 Wounds) to a unit within 8", with a casting bonus based on the number of ranks in her unit (up to +3). Honour guard for Runesmiths/Runelords, who bolster the healing spell, and may also invoke a Regeneration rune.
- Reckoners - not exactly a priesthood, but this unit is led by a Lorekeeper who can cause them to re-roll to-Wound, they also maintain Hatred for any unit targeted by a Book of Grudges. More importantly they are decently handy, and have options including pistols and brace of pistols (for the Reckoners only).
The additions bring the army to a total of 15 combat infantry units (including Forest Rangers and Longbeard Rangers), or 18 total infantry units including ranged. This however gives a huge scope for creating themed lists, as well as a load of tactical possibilities thanks to a range of useful abilities. Here's a quick summary:
- Warriors with Hand Weapons & Shields - bog standard defenders with Dwarf Toughness and good armour. These guys are the cheapest option which is good for bulk.
- Brotherhood of Grungni - characters required to take many of these. However, they are only slightly more expensive but with extra return attacks and their +1 Strength can make them a defensive option that can hurt back.
- Ironbreakers - expensive at 15 points each but with a 2+ armour save (1+ if charged) and a 5+ Parry save they are practically invincible by infantry standards. Natural Strength 4 gives them a little return clout as well.
- Runeguard - Capable of being multi-wound Ironbreakers with the same formidable save (except the parry), these guys also add Stubborn into the bargain.
- Warriors with Great Weapons - bog standard damaging unit, these guys aren't brilliantly protected, but can bring good numbers and Strength 5 basic.
- Troll Slayers - they're the same cost as warriors with great weapons, but they trade armour for Killing Blow and Switftstride on the Charge, as well as less options for bolstering their performance (no non-Slayer characters).
- Brotherhood of Grimnir - the same weapon advantages of slayers, but without the other penalties (or advantages). These guys have light armour and Wards of Grimnir as standard, Always Strikes First can be a shock though only at Strength 3 really (rarely benefits the Great Weapons), but they can become frenzied for even more clout as desired.
- Reckoners - combat oriented by default, the main benefit of these guys is their flexibility as they can pack pistols or braces of pistols for a punishing volley or two before the real fight. They can dish out a punishing round with re-rolls to-Wound, however their light armour makes them somewhat vulnerable. They are however fairly inexpensive. Combine with a Book of Grudges somewhere and they can have constant Hatred on an enemy unit too.
- Hammerers - though a bodyguard these guys are slightly offence oriented with multiple wounds, Strength 6, two attacks each, Stubborn and Hatred. They're also well protected and Toughness 5, but not exactly cheap.
- Giant Slayers - cheaper than Hammerers, with multiple wounds Devastating Charge, Killing Blow, Wards of Grminir and the two-hand weapons option. They hit hard, but can be hit hard in return. Upgrade to Doomseekers for even more mayhem (Impact Hits!).
- Ranged Units:
- Quarrellers - provide the same kind of steady ranged unit they do now, with good range but not a huge damage potential. Their main advantage is still being able to take Great weapons for that combat potential if you need it.
- Thunderers - now a special choice you need a Master Engineer to field them as Core, but they still hit hard. They're able to move and fire with 16" range or sit and fire with 24", but lose their old +1 to hit. This makes them slightly more offensive as a ranged unit.
- Mountain Rangers - with Vanguard and some nasty short-range firepower, these guys can really hurt enemy units if positioned carefully. They aren't however very good for prolonged shooting, but aren't bad at combat when forced into it.
- Forest Rangers - somewhat weak combat unit, but scouting lets them setup as a roadblock or wait ready to provide needed support as required.
- Longbeards - a mixed defensive and offensive unit with the ability to switch between hand weapon & shield or great weapons. Their main role is flexibility, but quelling Panic also helps.
- Longbeard Rangers - provide the same flexibility to a scout unit, allowing you to make a fiendish ranged unit with strong combat potential as well, smack it in front of the enemy (particularly in a building) and set them loose.
- Sisterhood of Valaya - ideal bunker for a Runesmith, as the ability to heal other units is never a bad thing. Not as accessible as for other armies, and not cheap either (cost of both puts them past 250 mark right away and you really need more sisters to bulk the unit) but a unit of Ironbreakers that don't die isn't an inviting prospect for anyone!
Well, my first impression of the latest iteration is sadly not very good. It seems to me that you've tried to eliminate quite a lot of the inherent weaknesses of the Dwarf army with no real motivation for doing so. Additionally the list is literally swamped with similar choices that will do little but confuse the dwarf player and his opponents alike.
The list is far to large for me to cover it all so I will, for the time being constrain myself to just a few units (in no particular order):
The flame cannon:
Given its special rule (Ld modification on panic test) this unit is crazy good. A decent hit against almost any target will almost always result in a failed panic test. Ergo, this rule need to go or be reworded to a static -1 on the Ld test. And no, I don't agree with other that say that the BRB fire throwers have been nerfed to oblivion. With the removal of partials they are deadlier than ever and a reduction in range was needed to keep them in line.
This needs to go up in cost, it should probably cost the same as the Empire cannon (i.e 4/3 of the cost of yours). My reasoning here is that the reduced range is offset by the abilities to take runes. (also, the reduced range, rarely, if ever, makes a difference).
The steam tank has set quite a precedent, you don't have excellent toughness and armour save at the same time. Reduce of of them to keep this in line.
Probably undercosted by one point.
These should be condensed into one choice with selection of special rules (see OK maneaters), longbeard rangers should be removed.
Severly undercosted, 15pts for a nigh unkillable model is far to cheap. The closest comparison are chosen chaos warriors and they are still green with envy since they cost more and get less (unless they are very lucky on their EotG roll). Few armies will have what it takes to deal with this. With the characteristic test re-roll even magic isn't a hard counter. EDIT: forgot about the lore of metal, but it is not the most popular lore in all comers lists. So not that much of a threat.
Can only help one war machine, and must declare which prior to using any of them (precedent set by Empire 8th).
The command options throughout the army should be harmonized with the current trend of the 8th army books, i.e. one of your current dwarf warriors for each option. The characters choices should be given one entry each. As it is now its just a mess, don't understand why you've gone down that route with your layout.
I'll leave it at this for the moment.
Last edited by Lyynark; 19-04-2012 at 11:02. Reason: Forgot something...
I'll have your *bleep* on a stick for that!
Thanks for the feedback all the same! Let me cover a few things:
The army is still slow, more so in a way since the Anvil of Doom no longer permits marching, as none of the additions are any faster (the Death Roller as a Chariot can't march so it's still only speed 6). The army is also slightly smaller than before as several unit types (those that can be bolstered most easily) are now more expensive, though you've rightly pointed out some that still need to go up a bit further.