Tactica: Daemons of Chaos 8th Edition

[Chris_Tzeentch]

Welcome to the Tactica Daemons of Chaos for 8th Edition Warhammer.

In 7th Edition, Daemons were the most powerful list in Warhammer. When the 8th Edition rumours started circulating, it was suggested that Daemons were going to get badly beaten by the Nerf bat.

Has this actually happened? The answer for me is a definite No. There is no doubt aspects of running a daemon list have been reduced in effectiveness, but it is still a good list.

Feel free to share your experiences here.

[Chris_Tzeentch]

I have noticed that Plaguebearers have lost a lot in terms of resilience as a result of being either to take the ward save or the regeneration save.

[immortal git]

bloodletters however have doubled in greatness, back rank attacks, thats a lot of strength five KBs.

Plaugebearers have dropped greatly, if they cant last they cant win to be fair, they have poor ws and their only thrength four

Daemonettes - oh yes! great initiative and with a herald they have asf too so they get rerolls to hit

Horrors - yeah they seem to be better, now if the winds of magic got well they can throw three - four dice at flickering fire.

[Kerill]

Hounds should also be a bit worse now with step up and support attacks facing a mere 5+ ward to get wounds back for CR. Khorne heralds on juggers now get no LOS unless they are near a sizable unit of crushers. Thirsters may actually be better, other greater daemons are a bit toned down at 2000/2250 since they can't be fully tooled.

Flamers are now better with march and shoot. Not that they needed a boost.

Rare slots are a lot more free now and a pair of single fiends are good for war machine hunting and wizard hunting without taking up rare slots.
- all theoryhammer btw...

[SevenSins]

So any thoughts on what, if any, units will you take in larger blocks (as opposed to 7th) 6x4 bloodletters/demonettes? T3 will still make these loose a fair bit to shooting.

ranked fiends? 3x3 with buckets of attacks and even a few stomps.

[HeroFox]

Here's what I think is still good:

Heralds of everyone minus Nurgle
All the Great Daemons minus Nurgle, with Khorne and Slannesh in front
Skulltaker, Masque, Blue Scribes
Bloodletters are great, Daemonettes are great, Horrors..eh, Nurgle Last
Fiends are up there, so are Flamers, Steeds of Slannesh is just 'ok' and Bloodcrushers are better.
Flesh Hounds now have a 2+ save vs magical.. which is quite fantastic.

[Zaustus]

Here are my thoughts on the relative value of daemon units in 8th. The standard caveats apply: I could easily be wrong about any of them, and they're just my opinions as of right now.

Bloodletters and Daemonettes benefit from the fighting in ranks, but they'll have to watch out against large units. There, the ranks + casualties removed from the back will allow the enemy far more return attacks than they used to receive. Since the daemons are only t3 with a 5+ save, lots of attacks can hurt you.
VERDICT: Use them, but don't put them up against hordes.

Plaguebearers take a big hit in this edition. They've lost their one attractive feature: the double save. Now there's very little reason I see to take them, short of a mono-Nurgle themed list.
VERDICT: These guys need to hit the showers. They'll be sitting this edition out.

Horrors no longer generate stupid power dice for you, but they're still useful. Large units will be decent wizards that don't worry much about miscasts, and now will be effective tarpits with the new Steadfast rule. Keep them 5-wide and they should last a while.
VERDICT: Still one of the most effective core choices in the game.

Furies have Ld2. That means that you'll have to keep them near your general if you ever want them to flying march. That's a pretty big drawback for a unit that's intended to hunt skirmishers and warmachines.
VERDICT: Don't use these guys... not that you did anyway.

Flesh Hounds still do a lot of damage, but you'll have to be more careful with them now. They make good warmachine hunters, and they'll be useful as wound-causing flankers, possibly even in ranks. Because they'll get to fight in 2 ranks, that becomes a more attractive proposition than before.
VERDICT: Still useful, but not as abusive as they were in 7th.

Screamers don't change much. They'll have to pass Ld tests now to fly-march, but their leadership score isn't too bad. Slashing attacks are nice, though as always a prepared opponent won't leave their characters out in the open. They're pretty handy for monster hunting. They're very fragile against low-strength shooting, though, and that got a boost in 8th.
VERDICT: It's hard to recommend these expensive guys when they'll get shot down by simple arrows so easily. The slashing attacks are super good when they work, though.

Nurglings stuffer from the same problems other skirmishers face. The loss of 360° line of sight hurts them. They make decent harassers and marchblockers, but with marchblocking nerfed I think their role is largely passé.
VERDICT: Not particularly effective. I'd spend the points elsewhere.

Seekers of Slaanesh are still really fast, and now get a 12" pre-game move. That might be enough to make them useful as hunters of warmachines and soft targets. Their inability to flee isn't as important now, since redirection is devalued in 8th edition.
VERDICT: Could be useful; consider taking a unit.

Bloodcrushers don't gain much from 8th. They're too expensive to take more than a few, and their offensive output isn't enough to get through steadfast units. They're definitely cool, at least, and getting new plastics soon.
VERDICT: If you like them, take a small unit joined by a Herald and use them to hit flanks.

Flamers lose their 360° line of sight, but more than make up for it by gaining the ability to march and shoot. They still pump out an ungodly number of good-strength shots at a high ballistic skill.
VERDICT: Still an absurdly powerful unit.

Beasts of Nurgle suffer from the same problem as Plaguebearers, losing a good part of their previously impressive survivability. They'll still be a pretty good tarpit, just not as good as before.
VERDICT: Still useful, despite being nerfed.

Fiends of Slaanesh seem to suffer at first glance, since they don't have much in the way of survivability. What I don't know is how they're classified in the new book. If they count as monstrous infantry, then they're actually not bad. Still, the second rank would only get 3/4 of their attacks, which seems like a waste. Still, stomp attacks may close that gap.
VERDICT: These guys seem pretty decent, and much more survivable hunter-killers than Seekers, and stronger attacks too.

Heralds are still strong, with Tzeentch Heralds probably the best. Their access to Master of Sorcery at a bargain-basement price is incredible, considering the power of the new BRB lores. Being able to take multiple Spell Breakers is another huge advantage for the servants of change, and for Daemons in general.
VERDICT: Khorne and Slaanesh heralds are still good leading units of their kin. Nurgle heralds are pretty bad now. Tzeentch heralds are super good; expect to see a lot of them.

The Bloodthirster is unique among the greater daemons in that you can still afford him fully tooled up at 2250+. Thunderstomp increases his killing power, though he can't just break ranked units by himself any more.
VERDICT: Still an unparalleled killer, but you'll need to support him now.

The Lord of Change is an extremely powerful wizard, especially with Master of Sorcery. The only problem is that his cost makes him impossible to tool up in smaller games. You really need to play 2750+ to make full use of him, while Kairos exactly fills the lord cap at 2500.
VERDICT: Fantastic in big games, though people will always be tempted to use Kairos instead. The Lord of Change is tougher and capable in melee though, so don't rule him out.

The Great Unclean One doesn't come standard with regeneration, so he doesn't suffer as much as his underlings do. Still, in 7th he was the least popular greater daemon because of his slow speed. Trappings of Nurgle isn't very exciting any more, but he still has good toughness and a crazy number of wounds. You won't be able to make a L4 caster out of him except in very big games.
VERDICT: Mostly for Nurgle theme lists. In terms of pure power, the other 3 greater daemons are better.

The Keeper of Secrets gets a fair bit deadlier with virtual perma-hatred (yay for I10) and S6 thunderstomps. It's harder to leadership-bomb now without the terror bubble, and the BSB allowing re-rolls of everything does hurt, but Siren Song + Great Icon of Despair is still a very mean combo. Again, you can't kit him out for big magic in outside of big games.
VERDICT: Super killy and access to some nasty gifts means this guy will still be worth taking. Expect to see him combined with Heralds of Tzeentch to make up for his reduced casting power in 8th.

Daemon Princes still suck. That's the verdict on them.

[Skip]

Khorne heralds are nice to tool up big blocks of bloodletters, Tzeentch heralds to get some nice spells with master of sorcery and the 4++ for the 40 horrors (the lvl4 wizzard to block enemy magic).

The blue scribes are your powerdice source
The 2W6 are too unpredictable

Flamers for some supporting firepower and slaanesh beasts for flank attacks. the rest is cosmetics

[The Black Wolf]

The Keeper of Secrets gets a fair bit deadlier with virtual perma-hatred (yay for I10) and S6 thunderstomps. It's harder to leadership-bomb now without the terror bubble, and the BSB allowing re-rolls of everything does hurt, but Siren Song + Great Icon of Despair is still a very mean combo. Again, you can't kit him out for big magic in outside of big games.
VERDICT: Super killy and access to some nasty gifts means this guy will still be worth taking. Expect to see him combined with Heralds of Tzeentch to make up for his reduced casting power in 8th.

I will apologise if anyone has thought of this and posted it here, but keepers are AMAZING now, with their asf and initiative 10 they have 6 attacks which re roll to his and if you give it Soul Hunger for the re rolls to wound. And then because he has the asf special rule which cancels out the asl of the thunderstomp it gets to strike with thunderstomp at initiave 10! How sick is that?

Ok but Flashound dont have KB and on top of it bloodcrushers can have 25 pts standar that allowes them to go extra D6 on charge ( I think thay get stomp also ).

Apart from that I would like to hear what you think about glean magic - someone told me that the spell is cast like a bound spell so in 8ed you would have to cast glean magic then use another set of dice to cast the other mage spell - but in my copy its written "the spell is cast on its value" nothing about it beaing "bound" item ? If so - can you choose the "level" of the spell ? I think this would be totaly cheese factor - Immagine 3 to 4 Tzeensch sorcerrors with master and all casting extra dice on 2 dices then gleen magicking away ... - oh the horror ...

Glean magic does not cast the spells it steals at a bound level, it is cast automatically and at the lowest casting value of the spell, sick eh?

Cheers
Matt

[fubukii]

One of the Huge weaknesses of the daemonic Infantry (Daemonettes/Letters) can easily be fixed using some augment spells from either LIFE/BEASTS or some hexes to reduce enemy str. We get access to whatever spells we want with kairos or any MOS spell caster and we should take advantage of this to boost our survivabilty as our troops offensive power is very impressive

[DaemonReign]

One of the Huge weaknesses of the daemonic Infantry (Daemonettes/Letters) can easily be fixed using some augment spells from either LIFE/BEASTS or some hexes to reduce enemy str. We get access to whatever spells we want with kairos or any MOS spell caster and we should take advantage of this to boost our survivabilty as our troops offensive power is very impressive

Yes, in my first game of 8th Ed I took a horde of Plaguebearers and managed to cast Birona's Timewarp on them in their first round of combat - they completely annihilated the opposing horde of dwarves.

In the same game, I had a horde of 55 Bloodletters + a Herald - and there was no stop in that unit either (even though this is because my opponent concentrated his fire on my warmachine-hunters and a Bloodthirster).

I basically agree with what most seem to be saying here.

1 - Nurgle has taken a nosedive but if you want to gamble with Augments then Plaguebearers can be turned into absolute monstrosities.

2 - I actually find Fiends and Bloodcrushers have FINALLY become worth their points in 8th Edition - making an 18 model horde with each of those troop-types over the comming months (the new Errata gives them both Monstrous Support, and sure Fiends lose 1 attack in the second and third rank but they will still be scary). Bloodcrushers were never anything but expensive good looks to me in 7th - I'm glad getting a bunch of them anyways is gonna pay off in 8th.

3 - FleshHounds. I don't think they're that much worse in 8th Ed. They get Monstrous Support so of course you'll have to spend points on bigger units but they'll get the same job done (I typically fielded them 8 models in each unit in 7th, now I'm making trays for 15).

4 - Beasts, Nurglings.. Didn't use Nurglings much, and Beasts were IMO never worth concidering at 100pts/model - not in 7th and certainly not in 8th.

5 - I'm having a hard time seeing how Screamers and Furies will do much good. Still, a usually spend a small portion of points on them anyways because the opponent is usually suckered into blasting them off the table when he really has more pressing matters to attend.

All in all, I don't feel that Daemons were nerfed by 8th Ed. I just feel it's now more fun to play with them. The multi-spam of minimal horror-blocks is a bygone, instead I get a reason to paint up tons of new core-troops and field armies that "really look like armies".

And the same goes for everyone else.

I know there's this incessant "politically correct" opinion about Daemons being broken etc but I never had that experience in our games, so in our group things will just continue as before. More fun for everyone. Daemons included.

[Lacrimosa]

Hi!

So I've finally succumbed to my bf:s wishes and decided to get into WFB, and my sight is set on DoC after hours and hours of contemplating.

I've red this thread and also their armybook throughout and figured it was time to get some advice from people that actually play daemons.

Now, the only thing I'm really set on are the flamers, fiends and KoS.

Core I'm very iffy about. I like the horrors, but the opinions about them seem very different. Also a block of 30-40 seems to be the way to go (if you're taking them ofc), accompanied by a HoT and Icon of sorcery.

I'm equally interested in both letters and nettes, so I'd like to hear some thought about them from more experienced players.
Hounds... well I can't make up my mind if I like them or not.

When coming to characters I like Blue scribes and skulltaker. Don't know which one to take tho, guess it depends on the rest.

Well, thats about it.
The point limit is set to 2500 pts.

Remember I'm a clean slate, and hopefully you guys can enlighten me some into the world of "must have" daemons

Thanks in advance.

[fubukii]

Hi!

So I've finally succumbed to my bf:s wishes and decided to get into WFB, and my sight is set on DoC after hours and hours of contemplating.

I've red this thread and also their armybook throughout and figured it was time to get some advice from people that actually play daemons.

Now, the only thing I'm really set on are the flamers, fiends and KoS.

Core I'm very iffy about. I like the horrors, but the opinions about them seem very different. Also a block of 30-40 seems to be the way to go (if you're taking them ofc), accompanied by a HoT and Icon of sorcery.

I'm equally interested in both letters and nettes, so I'd like to hear some thought about them from more experienced players.
Hounds... well I can't make up my mind if I like them or not.

When coming to characters I like Blue scribes and skulltaker. Don't know which one to take tho, guess it depends on the rest.

Well, thats about it.
The point limit is set to 2500 pts.

Remember I'm a clean slate, and hopefully you guys can enlighten me some into the world of "must have" daemons

Thanks in advance.

Horrors can be good in larger blocks, but then you lose out on combat potential. I prefer blocks of blood letters and daemonettes personally. Letters work in 25-50 man blocks, and gain great benefit from the lore of life and horde rule. Daemonettes are best in 30 man blocks or so with shadow supporting them. i would keep your main stay core the same (either all letters or all nettes) then support with HOT/LOC with the correct lore of choice.

As for other must haves, hounds make excellent active cr flankers, i would probably use a unit of 6 just to stack up kills and active CR. FIends are also very good either as a single man unit (for redirecting/warmachine hunting) or a larger unit to negate ranks and such (2 ranks of 3 or 2 ranks of 4).

Flamers are a amazing support unit for daemons, being able to march and shoot makes them very deadly. In addition in a pinch you can flank/rear charge with them for extra CR.

I would suggest avoiding the following units if you are going for competitive play:
Daemon prince, Plaguebearers, Nurglings, beasts of nurgle, screamers, and furies

[alphamale]

Keeper of Secrets ASF + I10 = D6 thunderstomp(normally ASL) at I10

I saw someone post this I believe this is correct as the ASF cancels out the ASL. Something to think about.

[Citadel97501]

Keeper of Secrets ASF + I10 = D6 thunderstomp(normally ASL) at I10

I saw someone post this I believe this is correct as the ASF cancels out the ASL. Something to think about.

Unfortunately the FAQ for the BRB, has said that special rules do not apply to Stomp or Thunder Stomp. . .

[brother slaughterer]

time to dust off the old daemons for a 1st foray in to 8th.

Will mono-khorne list be viable?

thinking: 3 blocks letters, doggies (10), crushers (5) and a couple of heralds for 2k

Viable, workable option in 8th Ed?

Cheers

[immortal git]

does seem that the popularity of greater daemons is gonna shift to
keeper
thirster
Bigbird
unclean

[Kalandros]

I might use 6 fiends at 3000+ pts, but I prefer 2 small units of fiends, either 1 fiend or 2 fiends, as WM hunters or CR generators.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265182
Here's a list I made for 2k points.

[Zaustus]

It's the same as 2d6. I'm guessing Skip is a German-speaker, because in German "dice" translates to "Würfel."

[Skip]

It's the same as 2d6. I'm guessing Skip is a German-speaker, because in German "dice" translates to "Würfel."

Damn, you're right - sry

Any ideas about bloodletter squad sizes? How many models and how many ranks does everyone prefer in future games?