you only get the ASL when your thunder stomping it does not effect your usual attacks...
so the KOS gets rerolls as normal.
you only get the ASL when your thunder stomping it does not effect your usual attacks...
so the KOS gets rerolls as normal.
The world.........
Yes!
Seek freedom, and your world will stand stretched out before your eyes. If the endless dream guides your spirits, Conquer it! Bear conviction behind your flag!
I'd go with tzeentch's Will TBH especially as in this edition the miscast is horrendous and the LoC adds his magic level to the casting roll as it is already.Originally Posted by badguyshaveallthefun
On a side note, I overheard someone in the local GW talking about taking plaguebearers in 3 ranks of ten in their 1000pt army with Full Command and a Tzeentch Herald with master of Sorcery (using Lore of Beasts) so he can cast Wyssan's Wildform on them, making them T5 infantry throwing out 21 S5 attacks against other units with wide facings. The other advantage being that he also has access to the Bolt thrower spell, a hex to reduce WS, a massive buff for himself and a spell to turn his Wizzie into a Mountain Chimera. Seemed somewhat gimmicky, but then he did have a unit that just couldn't be shifted come hell or high water.
I'm struggling to pick a lore I like for my daemon army (only recently picked them up so haven't had much chance to play with them). I'm stuck between four main lores (this is, of course, on a tzeentch Herald with Master of Sorcery, probably in a chariot):
Lore of Beasts - the signature augment spell on daemonettes looks like it could help a hell of a lot. Plus I'm a fan of any of my wizzies turning into Mountain Chimeras or Dragons. I'm not a fan of Pann's Impenetrable Pelt and I quite like Savage Beast of Horros but the rest of the spells I'm really fond of.
Lore of Life - I was actually reading this one over earlier and was somewhat gobsmacked. An augment that would double my Bloodletter's move and attacks as well as giving them the ASF ability? A magic net that murders skinks in particular but mainly any fast cav/shooty/skirmishy unit (Dryads maybe excepted) for trying to moves/shoots/casts spells? The several direct damage light spells are pretty cool and Pha's Protection seems like another good way of trying to get squishy daemons into combat without dying too much. Would the Light of Battle spell work on our instability tests (assuming we lose a combat)?
Lore of Death - seems better in a Tzeentch themed list TBH but then the various hexes are really cool, the Purple Sun of Xereus IMO is...entertaining, the character assassination spells are always nice but IMO the ability to generate more power dice (potentially) is what makes the lore thoroughly tempting, I still feel either Life or Beasts would probably work better as an all round lore rather than just magic focused.
Lore of Shadows - Not entirely sure how I feel about this, personally I think Melkoth's Mistifying Miasma might be the second best spell in the entire lore as even augmented it really nerfs your opponent's stats. But really the only spells to have really caught my eye were the Pit of Shades (definitely one of those spells you need dramatic music for) and Okkam's Mindrazor (daemonettes wounding nearly everyone on a 2+). But I'm not sure.
So what magic lores is everyone else thinking of taking (as tbh I think right now the BRB lores are probably overall better than all of our daemon ones)?
Toodles
Last edited by TheTrueSloth; 20-07-2010 at 14:32.
"I'm so drunk right now I don't know whether I'm angry drunk or horny drunk - either way, its' not going to be good for you..." "Oh really? Let's see..." "AAAAAHHH!" "Yep, he's angry drunk." - This conversation actually happened
I can assure you that units of three blood crushers with the +D6 charge banner are amazing. One of the first demon games played, they survived enough shooting to crush right into the back ranks/flank of a mean dwarven army by turn 2. The guy's flank crumbled, as they methodically destroyed a warhmachine a turn. I can't advocate two ranks personally, but three seemed plenty killy to me.
Personally, I think 3-4 Seekers with a Herald, + the "You charge me" 25 point gift, + the banner that says they can only take hold reactions is clutch. If you get first turn, take your 12 inch vanguard move, march next to a weaker unit (archers, thunderers, bowmen, etc.) and wait until his turn, then make them charge you. You can negate a huge unit of shooting, and crush them. If you go second, it could be much worse, you'll have to survive a turn of shooting/magic with the unit. It's risky, but it's got real potential I think.
Last edited by 3lwap0; 20-07-2010 at 15:56.
can we assume not everyone has jumped on the "i'm allowed to use SC so i will" bandwagon?
thanks
i always used to go two heads, but i only had my LoC at lvl 3 so used to be able to only use 4 dice. the extra score was needed. now i'll probably go for will, but not sure.
not going to be touching the daemons for a while though, got the ogre love at the moment
Fateweaver is WAY too cheap for his points. I can't wait to get the model but I don't think I'll use him as Kairos unless it's a Hard Boyz type fight.
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Little background: I was away from the hobby for the better part of 6 years. I only played 3-5 games of 7th edition and now have played 3 games of 8th all against the same opponent - Empire.
Yeah, that seems kind of cheesy to me. I think as Daemon players being accused of cheese recently, we need to fight against that perception. One thing I definitely have found bizarre is how much people use special characters now. I mean, most special characters are underpriced and using one in anything less than about 3000pts seems cheesy to me. Why is Khorne going to send out Karanak to hunt some piddly Empire Captain in 1000pts?On a side note, I overheard someone in the local GW talking about taking plaguebearers in 3 ranks of ten in their 1000pt army ... Seemed somewhat gimmicky, but then he did have a unit that just couldn't be shifted come hell or high water.
I've had this same struggle myself. I think that I have it down to Beasts or Death. Life isn't evil enough for my taste, even though I could take it with the rules as they are. I tried shadow last night and found myself wishing I had other stuff to cast.I'm struggling to pick a lore I like for my daemon army (only recently picked them up so haven't had much chance to play with them).
I think buffs in beasts would help out your characters and units a ton. Strength 6 bloodletters or Strength 4 Daemonettes would cause a lot of death even against armored troops and toughness 4 is always a plus. The problem to me with Beasts is damage dealing capacity. It's good to be able to whittle down tough enemy units.
Death is intriguing because of the extra dice and the way it deals wounds and while the buffs aren't great, one of the hexes duplicates some of the effect of wildform on a 9 instead of 10 and doom and darkness means even steadfast leadership 9 enemies break on a perfectly average roll.
As far as unit choices, this is based on my 3 games at 1200pts against Empire. My flesh hounds have been amazing. They've held up entire units of Empire statetroops on their own in a unit of 5 and one game (through some above average dice rolling) held up empire knights for 3 turns after being charged.
I would never field an army without bloodletters because I think every army needs that hitting power. That may be a style choice though.
I've abandoned my poor plaguebearers in favor of daemonettes, but I think a unit of plaguebearers is still really tough. I realize they only get the regeration or ward save, but, most of the time you will still have a 4+ save to ignore everything and toughness 4 doesn't hurt. I think they still have a use to hold units up so higher offensive stuff can get in.
Daemonettes + ASF is a no brainer imo.
Flamers are unreal. My little unit of 5 kept a unit of 30 empire statetroops busy for 3 turns as they moved around them shooting. Once the statetroops finally charged something else, the flamers charged in to push the combat into a victory for the daemons. They are not horrendous in close combat as WS 2 isn't as bad as it seems.
When I was putting together bigger armies, I found myself unable to put in my bloodcrushers. They are just too expensive when I can take more flesh hounds.
I'm going to try converting some fiends from the daemonettes boxed set and some spiders or something. The fiend models are just abhorrent, however, they do seem to be a must have.
Anyway, those are my opinions. Any reaction? I think I've agreed with a lot of people who posted all ready.
I too cannot stand the look of the fiends. If they haven't released them in plastic by the time it comes around to do the slaanesh element of my daemons, then I'm planning on converting some from some kind of plastic monster kit (trolls or minotaurs ATM, although I'm still holding out that there might be something better out there) and the Chaos Spawn box.
I recently tried out the lore of life, and have found it to be very much to my liking. Bloodletters don't really need any additional killing power (although it helps) between hatred and the spell which gives +2/+4 toughness, they chew through anything. And with all the multi-wound models that we have in the list, when a herald casts ANY spell, you can heal one wound on a model within 12". Bonus.
If life isn't evil enough for you you could always just make up some sort of fluff saying it's some kind of unholy lore that the daemon has learned to use. It fills the caster/models nearby with unholy vigour (regain wounds) makes them practically immune to pain as they bask in the darkness and despair (+2/+4 T) attacks enemies nearby with tendrils of shadow or waves of revulsion (S3/S4 hits against models in base contact). The sky is the limit.
Last Project: 6 skullcrushers
Current Project: 18 trolls
Next Project: Throgg the troll king
You could also add that teh lore of life is about creation, which is a branch of change. It is very much linked with Tzeentch. Look at the old WOC special character Aekold Helbrass (one of the best backgrounds going) as an example.
I would have to agree that the lore of life looks great for DOC. That said, with the casting so much easier I think there is a place for the gods lores too. With fear and terror toned down people don't feel the need to take as much ITP so the Slaanesh lore's traditional weakness is gone.
McBane - Plaguebearers in 3 ranks of 10 is not cheesy at all. Every army can have flaming attacks on at least one of their units thanks to banner of eternal flame so regeneration is out. Also plaguebearers have to rate as one of the worst units in terms of ratio of kills to points costs.
I think flesh hounds and bloodletters do look good - but bloodletters need to be careful against high I hard hitting armies (such as elves) as they can't usually afford to horde up and maintain their strikes after casualties.
Daemonettes need to be careful even with ASF. Run the numbers against cheap horde infantry and you'll see what I mean. They hit hard against lightly armoured troops but if the enemy gets return strikes (very likely full attacks ni this instance) they inflict a lot of pain in return.
Also whilst a lot of Daemon special characters are underpriced I wouldn't say this is true in general (Tiq Taq To anyone?), and that there are some examples of special characters that genuinely have an effect on army build and add an extra dimension to the game as a result, or are simply interesting rather than just a different version of a lord choice (both TK characters, Morghur, Green Knight to name but a few).
It is sad that all the daemon special characters are very well written in terms of rules, but some are simply not accurate in points cost. Oh and also that there is only 1 Slaanesh character (why no Azazel?).
668 - the neighbour of the beast.
My bad, I didn't quote the entirety of it. Here is the rest of the paragraph:
"On a side note, I overheard someone in the local GW talking about taking plaguebearers in 3 ranks of ten in their 1000pt army with Full Command and a Tzeentch Herald with master of Sorcery (using Lore of Beasts) so he can cast Wyssan's Wildform on them, making them T5 infantry throwing out 21 S5 attacks against other units with wide facings. The other advantage being that he also has access to the Bolt thrower spell, a hex to reduce WS, a massive buff for himself and a spell to turn his Wizzie into a Mountain Chimera. Seemed somewhat gimmicky, but then he did have a unit that just couldn't be shifted come hell or high water."
I also suppose the original poster was more accurate with "gimmicky" than my sentiment as I read it again. I just wouldn't want to sink 530 points into a gimmick at 1000pts. I am more just up in arms over the rampant special character use. Obviously they give your army more flavor, but why would I take a fully outfitted herald of khorne when I get skulltaker for the same price?
You make several other good points about the heartiness of the units. I personally think it's pretty ridiculous that if I kill half of a unit of 20 in ranks of 5 they would still get full attacks, but I guess almost everyone would play the high init races then and it would be overpowered. With their high move speed, Daemonettes may be a better flanker than primary attack unit.
I also like the lore of life spin. A little closed-minded on my part to think about it the other way. Maybe I'll reconsider, but I think I'm going to try death tonight.
All magic stems from Tzeentch, I'm not sure why lore wise people have an objection to using life. The only thing I find really funny is how nobody is going to use the lore of Tzeentch itself when for 25 points you have access to 7 spells which nearly all have two casting values.
If they don't die they're not doing their job.
Can a hero join a unit of Fiends of Slaanesh? If so, the herald of Slaanesh on a steed w/ Siren's Call (a.k.a. you charge me) gift in a unit of 6 fiends would be pretty wild. M10 I6 4A each front rank and 3A each second rank plus stomp. Back this up with a Lore of Beast or Lore of Life Tzeentch Herald near by and they become pretty tough to kill too.
Personally I see great irony in Daemons using the lore of life, which in itself is a reason to take it.
Regarding the Lore of Tzeentch I'm sure it will be used. A big block of Horrors thowing out Bolts of Change anyone?
But otherwise you are right I think. The big bird will have access to the full lore of Tzeentch so his versatility is secured but Heralds gain much from taking a lore from the book, because it nets them a versatility for having access to 7 spells from a lore of choice as opposed to 2 random spells from the Lore of Tzeentch. Also having access to a full lore gives you the advantage of knowing beforehand what your Herald can do allowing for a tactical advantage when constructing army lists. IF MoS allowed me to pick the Lore of Tzeentch and have all the spells of the lore I'd take it in a jiffy and it would easily be in my top 3 or four picks.
So: Full Lore = Perdictability and Versatility = Full knowlegde og Herald capability beforehand = Better optimization of army list and tactics.
especially with how Glean Magic was FAQd to work - that's just nasty now!
I am looking to run a mono Slaanehi army. Any advice on them?
Siren Song on Heralds / Keepers & Daemon Princes - how do people use this Daemonic Gift on their Heralds / Keepers and Princes?
With the random charge distance and being always able to measure distances this gift got even nastier. Park yourself to where your opponent will have to roll boxcars in order to reach you, and then force him to either charge, or flee. Chances are the unit will end up just moving the roll of a dice forward. It's a great way to open up your opponents battle line and get his units all staggered and not able to properly support each other. Use it on a flank to bait his supporting units away from the main line and open themself up to a combined flank charge next turn. Or use it to get some of his units to move in front of each other, forcing him to waste a turn of movement to get things back together. Or use it to force a unit to expose it's flanks to you for a next turn flank charge.
Although it did just occur to me that a lot of this doesn't work anymore because now all he has to do is pass a LD test and he can redirect the charge in any direction he wants. Oh well. I'll have to practice with it some more, I've been having too much fun with Khorne daemons lately. (just got the FW Bloodthirster and the FW Khorne Daemon Prince and herald)
As far as lores go, has anyone considered Metal? All units withing 12" getting +1 to hit and a 5+ scaly skin? On top of that you have Final Transmutation for dealing with any pesky horde units.
I myself have been waffling between Life and Shadow. Either raising my toughness or lowering their strength. Seems about the same to me.
Sorry, I'm kinda rambling but... Well, there it is.
The 5+ scaly skin buff does wonders for bloodcrushers...
I do like the lore of metal a lot, and the fact that one of my regular opponents plays WOC and HATES Marauders helps all the more.
I'm finding that I cannot take enough HoT's to get at all the lores that I want, as to put it simply, I WANT TO TAKE THEM ALL. (Except fire, boy do I not like that lore)
I find that with this edition, I'm going more towards buffs/debuffs than for direct damage. With the majority of our core units being T3, step up has really hurt Daemons, and using these types of spells helps to keep my troops alive. And just about ALL the lores have useful buffs and debuffs that I see working well in given situations. Kudos (again) to GW for a well designed edition of Fantasy.
Last edited by badguyshaveallthefun; 23-07-2010 at 18:41.
So I played a 2500 pts. game today with this list:
Skulltaker
HoS: Many Armed Monstrosity
HoT: Flames of Tz, MoS (Shadow)
HoT: Flames of Tz, MoS (Metal)
30 Bloodletters: Full cmd
24 Daemonettes: Full cmd, Siren Stand.
18 Daemonettes: Full cmd
30 Horrors: Full cmd, +1 cast banner
6 Fiends
5 Flamers: champ
He played Grudge Thrower/ Thunderer Dwarfs...
It did not go well. He had a horde of 40 Longbeards with 3(!) characters in it. the few spells I got past his dice stealing, +2 dispel banner having BSB were very effective, unfortunately they were just not enough.
The Bloodletters were stellar as only 12 reached his line but wiped out 20 Ironbreakers and 2 grudge throwers. The Daemonettes were quite good despite a poor charge roll which left my Fiends unsupported. They held up the horde for quite a while though.
In summation, not a great barometer except to say that this build gets wrecked by gunline armies, which I already knew.
Hope this gives some insight. If anyone has any questions about details of the game, I would be happy to answer. PM me.
Cheers
Well lowering the strength for other armies units is better in a way as it lowers the armour save modifier, but thats not the case for the daemons with 5+ ward.
The issue I have had so far is that having toughness 5/7 realy helps daemons stay in the fight, but in youre opponents turn you drop back down to T3 when they dispell the remains in play. Then you take huge casualties. We need to win combats and win them quickly.
Ways to do this I guess are to remove youre opponent from having steadfast by having more ranks of daemons and ensuring you win the combat by enough to make them fail the LD test (and probably the reroll too).
Using Slaanesh spells, masque and BSB to reduce units LD has been the best idea for me. With these you can then ignore steadfast a bit and just ensure you win combat and they should run. Solo Fiends help with this with rear/side charges to aid combat res and for cutting down the opponent.
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