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Thread: Banner of the World Dragon - Urgent help!

  1. #1

    Banner of the World Dragon - Urgent help!

    Ok so I was thinking of putting the BotWorldDragon on a BSB who goes with an Archmage in a bunker of Phoenix Guard.

    The Banner rule, which seems pretty all-encompassing, reads:

    "The unit is completely immune to all spell effects, whatever their source. This includes friendly spells, bound items and spells with area of effect that were cast on nearby units, etc. Spells which are cast on another unit, such as Flaming Sword of Rhuin, will work as normal, as will all magic weapons used to attack them."

    Seems to me the only reason for putting that second sentence in, is because they assume a Mage (a unit in its own right) may be part of the unit carrying the banner, and may want to cast spells on himself. It goes without saying that a Mage could still cast spells out of the unit - so the choice of FSoRhuin, which is often cast on the Mage himself, is to illustrate that self-buffs are fine.

    I understand that I can't cast spells on said unit due to the Banner, but can my Archmage cast, for example, Throne of Vines on HIMSELF, as it is a spell that doesn't affect the unit, only the mage?

    I can see an argument either way - once the Archmage joins the PG, he counts as part of the unit I assume.

    What do you guys think?

    Q
    Quannum. Funkin' out in every way, since 1987.

    Currently Playing: Ogre Kingdoms; The Empire. Bandwagon, HO!

  2. #2

    Re: Banner of the World Dragon - Urgent help!

    Read the second sentence again. It is referring to spells cast on OTHER UNITS.

    That sentence is there purely to stop people claiming that the unit carrying the banner cannot be harmed by magical weapons.

    No spells can be cast on the unit, even "buffs".

  3. #3

    Re: Banner of the World Dragon - Urgent help!

    Not strictly true, spells can be cast on the unit, its just the unit is immune. It'd be a waste of power dice.

    However, what about the Archmage within that unit? Can he cast spells on himself, not the unit?

    Q
    Quannum. Funkin' out in every way, since 1987.

    Currently Playing: Ogre Kingdoms; The Empire. Bandwagon, HO!

  4. #4
    Chapter Master Tae's Avatar
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    Re: Banner of the World Dragon - Urgent help!

    Is he part of the unit? Yes. (If not that means I can pick him out )

    Therefore can he cast it on himself? No. (Well techincally yes, but it wont work!)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cap'n Facebeard View Post
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  5. #5

    Re: Banner of the World Dragon - Urgent help!

    Cheers guys, I thought it might mean that! Offensive spells it is, then!
    Quannum. Funkin' out in every way, since 1987.

    Currently Playing: Ogre Kingdoms; The Empire. Bandwagon, HO!

  6. #6

    Re: Banner of the World Dragon - Urgent help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quannum View Post
    The Banner rule, which seems pretty all-encompassing, reads:

    "The unit is completely immune to all spell effects, whatever their source. This includes friendly spells, bound items and spells with area of effect that were cast on nearby units, etc. Spells which are cast on another unit, such as Flaming Sword of Rhuin, will work as normal, as will all magic weapons used to attack them."

    Seems to me the only reason for putting that second sentence in, is because they assume a Mage (a unit in its own right) may be part of the unit carrying the banner, and may want to cast spells on himself. It goes without saying that a Mage could still cast spells out of the unit - so the choice of FSoRhuin, which is often cast on the Mage himself, is to illustrate that self-buffs are fine.
    The reason for the second sentence in is so that you can't say that the enemy attacking with a flaming sword of Rhuin can't hurt you because you are immune to spell effects.

    Almost like they expect warhammer player to try and look for loopholes really...

    Phil

  7. #7

    Re: Banner of the World Dragon - Urgent help!

    Now if the mage was outside the unit. Cast Flaming Sword of Rhuin on himself, then joined the unit that would be fine?

  8. #8

    Re: Banner of the World Dragon - Urgent help!

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostline View Post
    Now if the mage was outside the unit. Cast Flaming Sword of Rhuin on himself, then joined the unit that would be fine?
    Wouldn't he gain immunity to spells as soon as he joined the unit and, thusly, lose the benefits of any spells on him? Or am I reading TOO much into that?

  9. #9

    Re: Banner of the World Dragon - Urgent help!

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostline View Post
    Now if the mage was outside the unit. Cast Flaming Sword of Rhuin on himself, then joined the unit that would be fine?
    Isn't this becoming moot with the changes to the burny sword of burning in 8e?

    But yeah, when he becomes part of the unit he becomes immune to the effects of spells cast upon him (including friendly ones) so the sword will stop boosting his stats and also stop preventing him from using his magic weapons or whatever.

    Interestingly, it doesn't say the spell is dispelled; I think there may be a case for self-affecting RiP spells to temporarily "switch off" under the banner's influence but remain "cast" and "in play" so that their effects return should the mage leave the unit a some point.
    Last edited by Mr_Rose; 08-07-2010 at 09:27.

  10. #10
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    Re: Banner of the World Dragon - Urgent help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Rose View Post
    Interestingly, it doesn't say the spell is dispelled; I think there may be a case for self-affecting RiP spells to temporarily "switch off" under the banner's influence but remain "cast" and "in play" so that their effects return should the mage leave the unit a some point.
    Actually, it doesn't give any immunity to spells, it gives immunity to SPELL EFFECTS. That means you can still hurl any spell at them you want, and they can be affected by a myriad of hexes and augments and 'remains in play' spells, they just won't be effected by them ... untill they lose the banner.
    This does raise a lot of questions though, like; if the enemy casts Flames of the Phoenix on them in turn one, and in turn three the BSB is slain, at what strength will the spell hit next? Is the unit immune to the strengthening of the spells effects?

    The difference between 'spells' and 'spell effects' is also of importance in the following, be it a bit farfetched but not unthinkable case;
    A player has as a lone character; a single lvl 1 mage with Regrowth as his spell. He also has a single unit joined by a BSB with the Banner of the World Dragon. All other units have been slain previously in the battle and the Mage has lost one wound. The mage is in close combat with a Dragon (that has also one wound left) but has miraculously stood his ground. The Mage can't cast Regrowth on himself, since the spell may not be used to heal characters, but he can cast it on the unit with the Banner. He miscasts, the spell is cast with irresistable force but has no effect on the unit with the banner. However, the Lore Attribute Lifebloom is triggered and the player can heal one wound on the casting Mage, bringing him back to two wounds. Then he rolls calamitous detonation on the miscast table inflicting a strength 10 hit on the dragon, blasting it to smithereens ... the mage loses one wound but survives because he was just healed by the lifebloom effect ...
    The stuff of dreams but in this case it would have a major impact on the outcome of the battle ...

    That is, unless the Lifebloom may not be used to heal a character when triggered by Regrowth, because then Regrowth is used to heal the character indirectly, which may be illegal as per the spells clause ...

    Maybe I should just bring the Banner in my next battle to mindboggle the judge when I'm on the verge of losing?

  11. #11

    Re: Banner of the World Dragon - Urgent help!

    His unit would still suffer the hits from the miscast. Miscast effect is not a spell effect.

    The other thing it means is that you can cast any spell at the unit, and as soon as you kill the BSB, that spell will take effect. Suppose you cast doom and gloom on the unit. It seems to do nothing, but if you kill the BSB in combat, the unit immediately drops -3 Ld so will have a hard time on the break test, combat reforms, etc... if they lose.

  12. #12
    Chapter Master AMWOOD co's Avatar
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    Re: Banner of the World Dragon - Urgent help!

    I would dare say that spells with cumulative or growing effects such as Flames of the Phoenix or Curse of the Leper would continue to grow as the spell is still doing what it does but the unit is not feeling it.
    "That's one man's opinion." Sign off quote from local retired radio announcer Rick Smith

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  13. #13

    Re: Banner of the World Dragon - Urgent help!

    They would.

  14. #14

    Re: Banner of the World Dragon - Urgent help!

    In my group we usually play with it in the way RIP spells won't work, we are getting old and don't remember that well, so if we should begin to remember things thats "hidden" we would need a notebook or another person whoes sole role was to remember that sort of things... Now I come to think of it, we usually do have another person to assist in remembering things.. Good luck to all!

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