So how does pinning actually work- the online rulebook in unclear IMO.
scar
So how does pinning actually work- the online rulebook in unclear IMO.
scar
The rules seem pretty straightforward to me.
If your model is shot and not wounded or taken out of action, they are pinned.
At the start of your next turn if you have a model who is not a Juve or Down within 2" you can make an initiative test to escape pinning, unless an enemy engages them in HtH during their turn, in which case your model is automatically unpinned.
If not or you fail you miss the whole of that turn, but become unpinned at the end of that turn.
What part do you find unclear?
Last edited by simonr1978; 14-07-2010 at 15:55.
Originally Posted by brightblade
What simon said, he has it exactly right.
One slightly unclear area is if one of your fighters is pinned by enemy overwatch fire, do they get to be unpinned at the end of your turn? Turns out the answer is no. For a fighter to automatically escape pinning during the recovery phase they must start the turn pinned. Aside from that, I believe it's pretty clear.
-Hit and not wounded = pinned.
-A friendly fighter (not a Juve, pinned, broken, or down) can let you make an initiative test at the beginning of your turn to recover.
-Automatic unpin requires a fighter to start the turn off pinned.
A friend of mine did try (vehemently) to argue that a group of 3 pinned models could provide covering fire and allow one another to get up at the start of the turn, but he got told no by myself and a friend and this was later backed up by folks over at easternfringe. So if you ever run into that situation - to allow a fighter to take an initiative test at the beginning of the turn, his buddy has to be not a Juve, not pinned, not down, and not broken.
Where does it say not pinned? All it says is not a juve, downed or broken fighter. The common errata/faq doesn't say anything about that either.
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It doesn't, so whilst I would say it is within the strict letter of the rules to allow pinned fighters to help each other unpin it would seem commonsense that if one guy is so busy cowering in the dirt wondering what the squidgy feeling in his trousers is that he can't do anything else, he's not going to be any encouragement to his mate a few feet away who's doing exactly the same and vice-versa.
The only grey areas with this is that the rules say "...whilst pinned, the fighter may do nothing" which could be interpretted to mean that he may not help another model un-pin (Even though they're not explicitly listed among the types that cannot help un-pin), although it's not written that the nearby ganger is helping the other unpin as such, just that they fact they're there gives the pinned fighter the confidence to get back into the scrap.
The rules also say that fighters who are down do not count, this could be taken to mean fighters whose models have been laid down on the table rather than fighters that are "Down" as per the injury table, although it does say fighter the terms Fighter and Model seem to be broadly interchangable in the rules. As I said though, these are slightly grey areas and as with much in Necromunda open to interpretation to a degree.
This is one instance I'd take a "Commonsense" view over RAW, personally. A pinned fighter is so busy cacking himself that his proximity is no benefit to another pinned fighter.
Last edited by simonr1978; 14-07-2010 at 17:40.
I guess it's all about how you see it. Obviously if a fellow comrade is downed, he's not exactly inspiration. I might argue though that 2 pinned gangers together might use each other as inspiration to get off their ass and do something. maybe when they see their comrade cowering and realize they are doing the same thing, they grow courage from this?
It might make sense though to not allow testing to escape from a pinned ganger since it doesn't allow you to use your leader's Ld for psychology if the Leader himself is broken. So maybe it is a decent ruling....
Last edited by Malo; 14-07-2010 at 17:39.
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By the same argument, a Juve nearby standing and fighting should be able shame the grown-up, cowering ganger into getting straight back into the fight, but they don't.
Agreed.
I'd rather have the other model's leadership used to test for un-pinning personally. It just makes a bit more sense to me to use that as I'd imagine the other fighting ganger shouting encouragement or abuse to his/her comrade to get back up and stop chewing dirt, equally there's no reason Juves couldn't do the same, albeit perhaps with a penalty to reflect their lowly status. Initiative doesn't really seem the right characteristic to use.
Hmmm..... houserule time.....
Last edited by simonr1978; 14-07-2010 at 18:37.
Ultimately it was a common sense argument. If a fighter has been knocked clean off his feet or is simply keeping his head down for fear of getting it shot off, he's clearly not going to inspire another fighter to get up and charge the enemy. Nor is he going to be able to provide covering fire. If a pinned fighter can't move or shoot, there's no way he could really help another buddy get up.
I see pinning as temporarily reverting to a "save yourself" mindset. He was unhappy about it because his leader and 2 gangers got drilled by my leader's sustained fire plasma gun and all were pinned.
Pinning to me represents someone that has had a narrow escape. The initiative test is about reactions and a certain degree of awareness.
I imagine a low initiative character going down and taking their time to check themselves over, shocked into forgetting what is going on around them. If they pass the test they obviously gather themselves quickly to get back into the fight. Higher initiative characters are more used to combat situations and perhaps know their own bodies better so that when they are not seriously hurt they know much faster, and also they may know how to use the momentum of the fall to help them up more quickly.
Having a friend nearby I think encourages them to get to their senses a bit quicker - but it still needs to be a test on their initiative because in the heat of battle with gunfire etc things may get a little blury and they may not be as aware of whats going on around them as a vet.
Let's say you have an arm that you want to attach to a body, first you drill a hole in the arm. Then you drill a hole in the body. Stick a piece of wire in and glue.
Everything is true, even the false
Everything is false, even the true
Nothing is done, until it is done
To me, Initiative is all about how quickly you physically react to situations. Do you react quickly enough to grab the edge of the platform as you fall? Initiative Test. It's not about thinking it through, it's about instincts and speed of reaction, which is why to me at least, it's the wrong characteristic to use.
Leadership is about not just your ability to inspire others but about your own self discipline and ability to deal with stressfull situations (Under RT Leadership was further broken down into Leadership, Coolness, Willpower and Intelligence). So to me I imagine it like this, a fighter's running when a burst of gunfire flies all around him, he instinctively throws himself to the ground. He's lying there, he knows he's not hurt bad but does he have the self discipline to pick himself and carry on? Leadership test. It's not a physical reaction, it's a conscious decision, he's thinking "I'm not badly hurt but can I overcome my fear?" so Leadership seems more appropriate than Initiative.
Having a friend nearby yelling abuse and encouragement should help your confidence and help you overcome your fear, but it wont make you react any quicker.
To be fair though, the book's a bit contradictory here. Whilst Initiative is said to represent gathering your wits as bombs and shells explode around you, Leadership represents your self control, what is gathering your wits in stressful situations if it isn't basically self control?
Last edited by simonr1978; 18-07-2010 at 18:55.
I think I am right in that there are effectively two types of pinning though.
Being hit but not wounded.
Being hit, wounded and only suffering a flesh wound.
I think leadership is more about nerve/moral. Initiative by defenition is about being able to think on your feet / react to a situation without requiring instruction independant strength of character.
You can have incredibly good reactions/reflexes/instincts and still be a coward or simply favour flight over fight.
That's how I tend to look at it on a basic level.
Leadership reflects the ability of the character to be a leader, to take control of situations including groups of people, their nerve/daring and ability to overcome some situations better than others - an element of bravery.
A low leadership reflects the reliance on other characters to show inspiration and confidence - pretty much the only reason they might stick about!
Again, it's a bit contradictory there. A Flesh Wound (As rolled on the injury chart) does not leave you pinned and is not even the result of being Pinned, but the description for Pinning does mention that the fighter might have suffered a flesh wound...I'd take those to be two slightly different things, the Flesh Wound (Injury) means that you've actually been hit and the bullet or whatever the weapon is firing has passed through your flesh, if you've been Pinned then it's merely grazed you or you scraped or bruised yourself while hitting the deck.
Suffering a Flesh Wound on the Injury Chart doesn't leave you pinned.
Leadership however does not just reflect the character's ability to inspire others, according to the rulebook it represents raw courage and self control, it doesn't actually mention the ability to lead under Leadership. It's raw courage and self control that would get you up and running again when the bullets are flying, not how quickly you can react.
Again, this is why it seems the better characteristic to test against, it doesn't matter how quick your reactions are or how good you are at thinking on your feet, if you can't muster the courage to pick yourself up and carry on when the bullets are flying overhead you aren't going to move from that little dip in the ground you're cowering in and Raw Courage is covered by Leadership.
Thats a bit of an opinion rather than a fact though.
It takes blind courage to stand up into a hail of bullets, it takes a bit of awareness to know when to stand up and avoid the hail of bullets.
Yes you need courage to at least consider get your head up to look around but at that point it takes observation and quick thinking to allow you to make a move in a way that isn't going to lead to you being dead.
Cowering could be you've been shot at once and are basically too nervous/scared to dare pop your head out around cover.
Its a close call but I think Initiative is good enough. I think the other problem with testing it on leadership is that certain characters can lend their leadership. Initiative is a bit more personal to the character in question.
And I have always played that if you are 'hit' you face being pinned whether you suffer a flesh wound or not. A bullet passing through you wouldn't make you any less pinned than if it grazed you.
And its not particularily contradictory, it states if you are hit you are pinned. A model with a flesh wound has been hit and therefore is pinned.
I've never claimed any of this to be fact, just that personally I think going by the vague definitions of what the characteristics represent Ld is better than I for this. Fighters can lend each other Initiative, sort of, too, since you can only test to escape pinning at the start of the turn if you have a friendly ganger within 2". Again, whilst it makes sense for Leadership to be a factor in something like this, speed of reaction and situational awareness isn't going to magically improve just because someone else is around.Thats a bit of an opinion rather than a fact though.
It takes blind courage to stand up into a hail of bullets, it takes a bit of awareness to know when to stand up and avoid the hail of bullets.
Yes you need courage to at least consider get your head up to look around but at that point it takes observation and quick thinking to allow you to make a move in a way that isn't going to lead to you being dead.
Cowering could be you've been shot at once and are basically too nervous/scared to dare pop your head out around cover.
Its a close call but I think Initiative is good enough. I think the other problem with testing it on leadership is that certain characters can lend their leadership. Initiative is a bit more personal to the character in question.
And I have always played that if you are 'hit' you face being pinned whether you suffer a flesh wound or not. A bullet passing through you wouldn't make you any less pinned than if it grazed you.
And its not particularily contradictory, it states if you are hit you are pinned. A model with a flesh wound has been hit and therefore is pinned.
In any case, I was wrong on one thing at least, a fighter that suffers a Flesh Wound on the injury chart is Pinned from the recovery phase. It seems a bit daft that a "Down" fighter can crawl for cover but the moment he recovers he's stunned and can't do anything, but there you go. That's just another of Necromunda's little mysteries I guess...
This is becoming a bit cyclical at this point anyway, it's just a game when all's said and done and an Initiative test is a reasonably adequate mechanism. I maintain however that a Leadership test would make more sense, but that of course is just my opinion.
Agree to disagree?
Last edited by simonr1978; 19-07-2010 at 16:40.
What? If a fighter is hit then they are pinned. To get a flesh wound a fighter has to be hit, so how can they be hit and not pinned? I think you're wrong here, the rules are very clear that if a fighter is hit then they are pinned immediately.
I suspect probably the biggest reason they went with Initiative is that otherwise the stat would be pretty much useless. If you did move it over to an Ld test then you'd have to come up with all kinds of new ways of using Initiative to make it a worthwhile advance. Sentries and overwatch are two obvious areas and I'm sure you can crowbar it into various skills. For example, the likes of armourers, inventors, medics, etc all must pass an I test to use them.
You might want to re-read my most recent post, especially the bit where I said:
In any case, I was wrong on one thing at least, a fighter that suffers a Flesh Wound on the injury chart is Pinned from the recovery phase.
Last edited by simonr1978; 20-07-2010 at 17:26.
Ahh, missed that. Consider it taken back!
This is something that we house rule. We let pinned fighters crawl up to 2" toward cover in the movement phase if they aren't able to recover. Makes sense to us - you won't necessarily hold perfectly still if you're downed in the middle of the street, plus it fixes the problem where a fighter that gets blasted running across an open doorway stays still his entire turn only to stand back up in plain sight just in time for the enemy to blast him again.In any case, I was wrong on one thing at least, a fighter that suffers a Flesh Wound on the injury chart is Pinned from the recovery phase. It seems a bit daft that a "Down" fighter can crawl for cover but the moment he recovers he's stunned and can't do anything, but there you go. That's just another of Necromunda's little mysteries I guess...
Aye allowing Pinned fighters to crawl like Downed ones is something I House Ruled too, just makes sense.
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