The Rise and Rise of the Tau?(!)

[jma037]

What's the Tau's attitude towards technology? Are they actively seeking to develope new technology? Will they use or rever engineer alien technology?

I ask this because knowledge tend to generate more knowledge. We (man) learnt more in the last ten years then all of previous history combined. ( I kid you not). So, with out a fear of technology, the exponetial growth of Tau technology will grow to the stage of the golden age of technology in no time. (they got to interstarllar empire in 2000 years) Does this mean that they will rule all in say 500 years?

[Aurelien]

Yes, the Taus intial forays into space were boosted by the discovery of alien star drives that were convieniently close to their home world...

And the Ion cannons are (IIRC) demiurg originally.

However, the Tau wont 'rule all' in 500 years, because I doubt we'll ever see the story line progress that far. It will stay static and unchanging as always.

Hypothetically, in 500 years, yes, the Tau will be strong, strong enough that the Imperium will have to devote some serious manpower to stopping them expanding further and further.

[Mr_middle_way]

The Tau's main advantage is their technology, not mearly their own, but others aswell. They are perhaps the closest thing to current humans....extremely curious and willing to stick their noses everywhere.

They have no problem using the technology of others, adapting it to their own needs ("The wise adapt"), and anything they can't do by other means they attempt to develop technology to compensate. I'm in no doubt should the universe move on they would create some peice of tech that replicates the navigator gene without any of the inherent risks allowing them to expand at a much faster rate that currently allowed.

[Escaflowne_Z]

Erm...I don't suppose you've read the Tau codex have you? Most of these facts are already there.

[The Mighty Gnoblar]

I dont think the Tau will rule all by 500 years, the Orks and Tyranids would be a very sizable threat to them with the hordes and hordes of them plus the Orks rather neat trick of infesting world with their spores. The Eldar would continue as they always do floating around in those Craftworlds and the Necrons well I doubt even the most patriotic Tau is going to settle a Tomb World for the Greater Good.

I think the Imperium obviously stands to loose the most from a Tau super power so they'll probably cling on somewhere dogmaticly holding out against them and the Marines, well lets just say the fleets will probably become the new hive fleets of the Tau Empire, descending on world and slaughtering everything before leaving.

I think that should the Tau become the big power in 500 years then they'll find out just how tough it can be being the Imperium, just watch them slide into a paranoid xenophobic race of with a supersitious belief system

[Sgt Biffo]

As some what of a ludite myself, I can see many parables about the wonders of technology leading to very little.

Getting faster does not always mean attaining anything. "Trying to escape from your shadow and foot prints by running from them achieves far less than sitting in the shade of a tree will."

How about "The flame that burns twice as bright burns half as long." Perhaps the Tau empire will not make it to the next 500 years....

Advanced social thinking will be what will progress their empire to true greatness, not new gadgets to put in a swiss army knife.

[my_name_is_tudor]

Yes, because advanced social thinking will win out in a galaxy of mind warping daemons, living kill-bots, world eating space bugs (dinosaurs.. whatever), fascist psycho-conditioned genetically modified killing machines, vast swathes of relentless guardsmen, and war-obsessed fungus warriors.

Wake up and smell the "grim darkness"

On the day scientists create the first sentient, conscious, self aware artifical mind, you tell me that's "the wonders of technology leading to very little". At least it'll teach people the fallacy of the 'soul'..

You are currently using the greatest social platform ever created, (yes, a technology) to communicate with thousands of people across the globe. The internet is the most important social breakthrough ever, bringing a rapidly expanding race back into a close knit community, and reaffirming our qualities as social creatures, and you think that "the wonders of technology lead[...] to very little"?

[Sgt Biffo]

you think that "the wonders of technology lead[...] to very little"?

Yup! Today we have very little technology that makes things better, it merely makes things different.

Women have been knocking out sentient minds in the thousands every day for centuries. What does putting one in a box prove?

The greatest threat ever posed to the Imperium can from within the Impirium and it took something that was born (not made) to stop it.

Tyranids use no machines to wipe out intire ecosystems. Why are they such a threat to the Tau technological embracing empire when they haven't even made the wheel?

Your condesending remarks have done little to refute my statment, only highlight your own narrow mindedness.

[my_name_is_tudor]

The creation of artifical sentience disproves the concept of the soul, I'd call that a major social breakthrough.

The tyranids use no machines.. but since when is conscious genetic manipulation and experimentation not technology?

And I'm sure that the world's falling death rates, rising birthrates, increased social structure and sense of community - leading to increased understand and longer and more sustainable peace - count as 'better' rather than 'different', unless you are indeed an incredibly pessimistic person.

I also find it hilairious to think that a person who claims to be "some what of a luddite" could call anyone else narrow minded. I'm still curious as to why a luddite would be using a computer.. foul employment stealing evil-machines as they are.

Anyway, getting back on topic, the idea is that in a universe as paralysingly dangerous as the 40k universe, without military technology (and yes, Tyranid genetic manipulation counts) or at the very least, incidental physical prowess (chaos, etc) you cannot hope to survive. And indeed, there is no neccessity for any sort of grand social advancement in order to be the ruling body in the galaxy - the most powerful governmental system in the galaxy currently is the Imperium, and they are nowhere close to social enlightenment.

[TheSonOfAbbadon]

Yup! Today we have very little technology that makes things better, it merely makes things different.

Rubbish.

In 'ye olde' times people had to eat 4000-4500 calories a day JUST TO KEEP GOING, that's about as much [probably more] as a modern athlete eats. They had to spend most of their waking hours working, whereas now-a-days we spend about 40 hours a week working [8 hours every weekday]? And all we have to do is 'Do this on the computer, present this, copy this, fax this to someone' all on the computer. In 'ye olde' times people had to cut down trees, gather wood, make thatched rooves, plough fields, sow seeds, gather apples, harvest crops, repair this building, butcher this animal, all hard labour work.

You're deluded, Biffo, if you think technology only makes things different.


I doubt Tau will be ruling the galaxy in 500 years, there's too many threats for them to face off against all at once, and they have no psykers or FTL travel so the different parts of their empire can't communicate or work in unison.

But if they managed to get hold of a Necron FTL drive...

[Sgt Biffo]

unless you are indeed an incredibly pessimistic person.

That I am. As after "smelling" some of the grim darkness I realised that there "is only WAR!" There has always been war. And war is the ultimate consumer of our precious, precious technology. Sustainable peace.... ha! Utopian. Next you'll be telling me communism can work.

Is the ability to reason connected to a soul? Belief in a soul is only realy embraced by those who are afraid of total oblivion. Disproving the belief systems of millions of cowards is not really a social break through, or even a necessity.

Tyranid genetic manipulation counts only in your little world. Its been happening in ours long before we were around.

[Sgt Biffo]

all hard labour work.

Whats wrong with hard work. At least back then the major cause of death was disease or child birth.

The levels of obesity and heart disease (the main cause of death today) aludes to the fact that people are eating far more than they need to keep going. The toll on agricultural land to produce this superfluous food is undeniable.

Such decadence! Reminds me of a certain chaos god...

[El_Machinae]

First off: Reverse engineering can ruin progress in a certain field. If they get a Necron warp drive (that they can produce, but not understand), it might stifle research in that area (for example, bureaucrats might decide to focus research money in other areas). Then they'll get to the point where the drives are being made, but the science behind it is gone.

As well, it does take time for a technology to be propagated in a society. As the Empire expands, this propagation will necessisarily slow down (in a relative sense). Billions of homeworlders may have iPod and Blackberries, but the percentage of Tau that have these tools will go down as the Empire expands.

Nowadays, there is some resistance to our development. It continues, but because people resist learning the new ideas, the usefulness of these ideas is diminished. Sure, I can use a Blackberry to work while I'm away from work - but my boss cannot use his.

If people want this development to progress as fast as it can, we can take proactive steps to speed it. The Tau seem to have that concept in mind, but with growth comes bureaucracy, and their progress (especially in saturation terms) might slow down.

[my_name_is_tudor]

That I am. As after "smelling" some of the grim darkness I realised that there "is only WAR!" There has always been war. And war is the ultimate consumer of our precious, precious technology. Sustainable peace.... ha! Utopian. Next you'll be telling me communism can work.

Is the ability to reason connected to a soul? Belief in a soul is only realy embraced by those who are afraid of total oblivion. Disproving the belief systems of millions of cowards is not really a social break through, or even a necessity.

Tyranid genetic manipulation counts only in your little world. Its been happening in ours long before we were around.

Lemme guess, you're right wing?

Disproving the soul would let us throw off the shackles of whats left of religion, and actually do some advancing as a race.. And only an idiot would even believe in "oblivion" - so only the lowest of the low can fear it.

And you do realise that the hive mind is conscious? It doesn't evolve based on survival of the fittest, but actual conscious experimentation. It takes bits of other races, and uses science to make new critters. That is technology, not the luck of the draw of natural evolution.

[TheSonOfAbbadon]

Whats wrong with hard work.

It's HARD, that's what's wrong with it.

And communism CAN work, it's just very very hard to make it work.

Oh, and, El_Machinae, you're right that it may stifle research in that area, but it's a Necron FTL drive, not a Necron Warp drive.

[Axel]

The creation of artifical sentience disproves the concept of the soul, I'd call that a major social breakthrough.

Beg to differ.

Your statement contains two assumptions

1) artificial sentience has no soul
Proof it. I am sure that I can dig out hundreds of references for people who would swear that even non-sentience technology has a soul, mainly for ships, though cars or computers catch up fast. There is no "proof" that soul is a concept that only adheres to sentient beings.

2) any sentient being must have a soul
If we go the other way and assume that ONLY humans have a soul and that biological physis is somehow a precondition, then the creation of a sentient being without soul is certainly no proof against the existence of a soul.

At the moment we are not even close to realize how artificial sentient beings will change our society. We can certainly not already state wether they will have a soul or not, and what that means for us.

In any way, lets do it the Tau way. The worst we can do is exterminate humanity and all that stuff...

[my_name_is_tudor]

How can you even believe the soul exists in the first place?

Don't even answer that, if you are the kind of person that does the whole 'but theres no proof against the laws-of-physics defying paranormal nonsenity' thing, then I'm not interested in talking to you. And the fact is that this is off topic.

[Burnthem]

guys, lets get this back on topic, and leave all of the meta-physical stuff to another thread, which somebody can start if they want too...

personally, i expect the tau to become an incredible threat to the imperium, maybe even larger than the orks or tyranids.

[Khaine's Messenger]

What's the Tau's attitude towards technology?

This is actually a tricky topic....on the one hand, technology is a means to make sure the castes stay in their place (iirc, Xisor speculated that the Empire--specifically, the Kor'vattra--depends overly much on drones in order to lessen any sort of "dependance" on the Earth Caste, which would otherwise be seen as a politically/logistically dominating force outside the Ethereals, although I disagreed with this), while on the other hand, the Earth caste seems to have free reign to develop any technologies they want with the assurance that, if the Ethereals are impressed, those technologies will be used (even if they piss off the castes that will be using them most often), see the original RailRifle background for info on that topic.

This, combined with, eg, Philosophical Aun's idea that true innovation and leadership in the Empire will only come about as the product of "individuals" (who are rare by comparison to the whole of the population) of rank seems to suggest that, although the Tau are greatly receptive to technology, they're not exactly going to be possessing a Necrontyr-level of understanding of the universe any time soon. DAoT? Maybe. But you've gotta realize that a bunch of DAoT tech is dependant on warp-manipulation, which is a field that the Tau have yet to actually delve into in the "canon" beyond anything we might suppose from their studies of human, Niccassar, and possibly Eldar tech. On top of that, there was a rather interesting thread on old Portent about whether or not the Tau would treat "true machine intelligences" as any other race in the Empire rather than as they currently use drones...I think it just petered off into nothing, though.

But that's all in the hypothetical. As far as the "canon" goes, yeah, the Tau are rapidly advancing in all fields (except maybe in terms of universal culture, where, while they do not necessarily stagnate, they are somewhat constant).

Are they actively seeking to develope new technology?

Yes. How well they succeed is, perhaps, debateable. One might argue that they have done little but refine existing technologies, as the Tau armies of 750.M41 look surprisingly similar to the Tau armies of 999.M41 with the exception of a few miniaturized/optimized bitz.

Will they use or rever engineer alien technology?

Without a doubt. Their Empire is all about incorporation (and some might say, domination), and any empire that know's wot's-wot will steal or buy (excuse me, adopt) anything that looks like it'll be helpful.

Does this mean that they will rule all in say 500 years?

Nah.

[Axel]

How can you even believe the soul exists in the first place?
Don't even answer that, ...

Sorry, have to. Its just too much fun to let that one escape.

Actually, you was the one that combined "proof" and "soul", with your statement that artificial sentience is a proof against it. If you ask me, soul is a question of believe that escapes any hard proof. That was - in more words - my point.

laws-of-physics defying paranormal nonsenity

The "soul" is not a paranormal phenomen, but a mystical concept to seperate humans from the rest of the bunch. In medieval times there was some serious debate wether women, while sentient, where in possession of a true soul.

Back to 40k now. In that environment at least the existance of souls is confirmed, if only as a C`Tan snack.