Codex: Insurgency - Download and Playtest Thread

[kurous]

Wow that is a well done and clean list. i agree with JooMcGoos earlier statement about mabe making the mob a swarm so multiple wounds per base, as he said it would make movement easier and template weapons even more effective as they should be. As sisters of battle with all their flamers should absolutely massacre that unit. I would say 3 guy on each base.
Also what stops someone from hiding their rebel leader inside the middle of a giant mob. Maybe this is something you didn’t mind but I don’t know how mob members would feel about their leader just hiding among them. Maybe once they got into cc the leader could run to the back of the group but otherwise it gives your IC 50 more wounds.

agian i have to say this is the best custom list i have seen come out of some one other than GW
btw has someone had the change to test out the mob yet

[Zzarchov]

Why no Swarms: 1.) Swarms are Size 1 and have all kinds of special rules
2.) The rules already require movement trays
3.) It just isn't the same C'mon..the unit wouldn't be near as fun.

As for an IC, read the rules carefully... You can't plunk the rebel leader inside the mob. The Mob (heavy support) is deployed first..and must have all models in base to base. Best you could do is stick your leader on the outer edges of the mob.

Alot of work has gone into testing the mob to make sure it isn't a "No brainer" or an "instant game winner", as not surprisingly..most playtesters start by building "The mob" (or more usually a proxy with fantasy armies)

As for the ability to Massacre the unit, its set up as a unit that doesn't really care about "Direct force", you need to use up waaaaay too much firepower to take "The Mob" down by traditional means...but its INCREDIBLY weak once you target the Insurgent Leaders, most games it usually flees off the table on its own by about the third or fourth turn.

[kurous]

Currently couldn’t you have the leader join the mob? That was what I’m concerned about

btw does anyone know of a place to get correctly scaled pickup trucks

[Zzarchov]

Well, I can't currently see how you could hide inside it..

BUT, that doesn't mean someone won't figure out how. As they say, the problem with making something idiot proof is that idiots are so damn ingenious.

How does A rule banning your Independant Characters from going inside the mob sound?

something along the lines of being jostled out, or if your a popular leader, Crowd surfed out, but either way pushed to the outside of the mob, being unable to fire or assault in a turn this happens.

[Zzarchov]

http://www.savefile.com/files/346860

Now in PDF
Also, minor changes to make sure no IC's manage to hide inside "The Mob"

DEC 17 new:

Some new Wargear, Additions to Chaos Rebellions

[Cactusman]

This rocks. Well done. I shall try it myself very soon.

[Zzarchov]

Any Chaos Players have any comments on the recent Chaos Rebellion changes?

[Zzarchov]

I hope people don't mind the multi-posting, but its this or a new thread since people seem to like PM's to questions:

What does everyone think of the "low ammo" rule, should it be
scrapped? too complex? too game bogging? I've had some comments to its
negative, none to its positive (might be a case of its ok so leave it
though), so im looking for some feedback.

[Sakura1000]

Any Chaos Players have any comments on the recent Chaos Rebellion changes?

I do O-o (and I didn't see it asked yet) but... where's the Mark of Slaanesh?

[Zzarchov]

hundreds of people downloaded the last version and you are the first person to notice that over sight, thank you, It will be fixed shortly.

[IncubiLord]

As requested, I've taken a look at this thread and the linked file. Overall, it looks pretty decent, but I'm always picky.

Starting from the top:

Ammo Roll - this is too harsh.

The Orkier version (lootas get all the good examples) would be that at the start of the game you roll a D6 for each unit (that has guns) - on a 1, their weapons all suffer the "gets hot" rule.

Perhaps to counter the harsh nature of this, allow all the dice to be rolled together and the player can choose which units (that have guns) will suffer the results. This would reflect the leaders passing out more of the dwindling supplies to those they deem more useful.

It might be better to just scrap the rule, though.

Crossbows - According to the Witch Hunters' codex, a crossbow fires as an Assault 2 Hellgun. Maybe the Cult variant doesn't fire as quickly, but Heavy 1 seems a ways off by comparison.
Making it an Assault 1 Hellgun, keeping the Shotgun as-is, and giving the Hunting Rifle a re-roll to hit would leave the weapons choice fairly even.

Loyal pet - Is there a reason this thing has a higher WS than an attack squig, guardsman, or typical gaunt?

Comparing it to other attack pets, I'd drop this to WS3. Since this makes the pet almost a basic gaunt, I'd drop it to 4 points as well.

Rebel Leader - As these guys are pretty pathetic and yet vital to the army (expect about half the army to run away should they get toasted), I'd suggest allowing a second Rebel Leader (operating independently) as part of the same HQ choice.

The second is not allowed to take a bodyguard, though.

Rebel Bodyguards - These guys are worth 5-6 points each, not 8.

At 5 points, they end up costing just more than a Guardsman when given a lasgun, and ATSKNF isn't worth more than about a point on troops that die like flies.

Technical (flatbed) - a VDR flatbed would run 37 points, not have the Breakdown rules, and have frontal AV 10 for free (maybe they use modified plow blades to reinforce the front?) Ork trukks are a little cheaper than that with AV 10 all around.

20 points seems about right, BUT the breakdown test is a bit harsh. However, simply removing the chance of exploding on a second 1 would put it about on par with the Ork version.

Mutants - Feral Mutants seem pricey compared to the existing mutant entries. Dropping them to 7-ish would be decent, but comes into conflict with my next statement - Enslaved Mutants are too cheap.

With Bloated or Wyrd, they become a very attractive speed-bump for enemy assault units at 100 points for 20 of them. Savage, on the other hand, makes the unit very easy to break for a perk that would leave them as watered-down Kroot in CC.

I'd say that all mutants should use the Feral profile and cost 5 points base - with Savage costing 2 points and only reducing Ld by 1, and the other mutations costing 3 points.

The entry options could be shifted around a bit to differentiate better between Ferals and Enslaved, but that's for later.

Does the Mutant Leader grant any leadership bonus (I'm guessing no, because he's free)?

Lone Wolf - Seems pretty good. Definitely remind me of the Deathworld Snipers from the old Catachan Codex.

Revolutionaries - Conscripts, anyone? Unfortunately, those weapon prices are sickly high.

Take a look at the prices Orks and Conscripts pay for their weapons, and you can get a good idea of where the values should be.

Mounted Rebels - Seem decent, but I'd add in heavy weapons side-cars for bikes. They become less CC-oriented and could use a small boost.

Allowing a Heavy Stubber, Heavey Flamer, or Grenade Launcher sidecar for every 5 taken would be decent, and give them roughly the same number of heavier weapons as an equal points in Revolutionaries.

Technicals - Again, the prices are way out there. They have BS2, not BS4.

Check out the Ork Warbuggies for an idea of how much Heavy Flamers and Heavy Bolters should cost, and build the rest of the prices around those.

Captured Tanks - What can I say? Looting is the way to go.

It is a bit odd that this choice isn't limited by the number of Revolutionaries, though. I could have 6 Razorbacks with twin-Lascannons as my HS no matter what? 3 Leman Russ?

Tank Hunters - This is the one place in the army I'd expect BS4.

Entire IG units can have BS4, and these guys had better be the best shots in a revolution to merit getting a missile launcher and sent out on their own. They'd probably need a bit of a points increase for it, though.

The Mob - Fleet Gretchin, RUN!

Actually, trading in a bit of WS and BS for S and T is more than fair. These guys are worth 3 points at the least.

They are also potentially broken to the extreme unless your opponent is well-aware that they just need to kill the ICs to (usually) get rid of the mob. If the mob actually passes their cut-the-head test, they're a devastating tool for the entire game, and there are some missions where no HQ is required.

As stated, 40K armies aren't designed to fight masses like this. They should only be fearless while an IC remains on the table, that way there's a way to break them when there's no ICs.

2CCWs and Great Weapon should cost a point each.

As much as it bugs me to agree with Puffin, this isn't a HS choice. Make it a Troops choice that doesn't use up a slot.

IEDs - I suggested something along these lines in another thread, but here's how to do traps:

Allow the player to buy counters for Booby Traps, Minefields and dud counters for Revolutionaries units.
Maybe allow 0-1 Minefield at 30 points, 0-2 Booby Traps at 10 points, and 0-3 dud markers at 5 points for every 2 units of Revolutionaries.

Minefields and Booby Traps are represented by standard bases with a mark on the bottom and follow the rules on page 205 of the rulebook, and dud markers are just there to play with your opponent's head.

I haven't looked over the specific cults yet, but it's late and I'm tired. I'll get back to them. I'll probably come up with more on the army as a whole, too.

[Zzarchov]

Thank you for your detailed responses, I should point out one thing though ( I don't know if this factors into any of your comments) is that the army is designed to be on average, less powerful than a standard codex army. Ideally you should require the luck of the dice gods to beat a truly competetive codex army (ie, the proverbial Beardy McCheese army).

The reason for this, is that as a custom codex I find you get alot more opponents willing to play against an obviously weak one than an arguabley fair one.

Ammo Roll - I too debate scraping this rule quite often, the ork loota rule though just doesn't seem to fit (it has more to do with not knowing how to use the guns and shooting each other than running out of ammo). Some people love it, others hate it, im kinda torn.

Crossbows - This isn't a witch hunters james bond style modern assassin's crossbow. This is a feral world or hunting crossbow. If you are ever in a hunting store and see a crossbow you'll understand why this just doesn't make sense as anything other than Heavy 1, these things are not easy to load and not fast firing, most certainly not easier/faster to fire than a pistol.

Loyal pet - Thank you for catching this, that is totally my bad. I had meant to model it after an attack squig.

Rebel Bodyguards - Sounds like a good idea, they do get pretty pricey.

Breakdown: Ya it is slightly harsher than the orks, but I also can't copy the Ork version for obvious copyright reasons. The odds of the splosion are pretty slim, but enough games its bound to happen at inopportune times, I'll definately think about changing it.

Mutants - The main reason for the hightened cost of the Feral was their access to goodies not found in the mainstay of the list (special weapons). The Enslaved mutants may be too cheap however, I haven't had enough playtesting with them yet to be sure, I was actually worried about the Savage/Great weapon combination myself (flurries of S5 attacks). Even with Bloated the Enslaved Mutants are basically Ork Boyz without Choppas, armour, Sluggas, Mob rules, smaller unit size and a lower leadership. I don't think more than a point or two is needed is it? (unless the quite likely chance there is a hideous combo I've missed, had that happen once or twice in the last year)

And yes, I do need to clean up the options entry.


Revolutionaries - Ya the revolutionaries are paying too much for weapons, but I do still want them over-costed (the main benefit of revolutionaries being manpower points), but I do think they still a bit too high.


Technicals - The flamer price I think is good, I run them myself and they seem a bit too good still, but the other ones are definately pricey, but given the option of turning the unit to BS3, im not sure how much lower I should really go? (perhaps change the sqaudron price of well maintained?)

Captured Tanks - I just mostly copied in a similar vein to the Deathskull Orks. I figured if you take three hammerheads in a 700pt Tau force taking three russes isn't that far out of line.

Tank Hunters -
I agree and I did have it at BS4 for a bit, but they were just too damn irritating to be fun for the opponent. These things (even if not devestating, low LD for priority and BS3 is 50/50) often soak up TURNS of several units firing. When they were basically BS4 lascannons AND soaking up firepower, the opponents just hated them and wouldn't play if I used them. Opponent fun overruled the higher BS.

The Mob - This one Im always unsure about, but on the other hand, people love it. Ideally I do want this to be a unit you can't defeat with conventional means (something 40k is shy of), the Idea being you can't put down a riot easily by just unloading into it with bullets. Though apparently Flamer heavy armies do quite a number, apparently Ork Skorcha buggies with stickbomb chuckas and Spikes actually can whipe them out with standard means.

Heavy Support is probably where it will stay though, mainly for balance reasons that it means one less Basilisk too take. As a playtester did report that with three Earthshakers and the Mob (usign them as a wall)

I think you are right that three points is better though (though it seems like a 2.5 or 2.75 would be better still, being unable to lock guys in combat and always needing 5's to hit)


IEDs - My current thought was the ability to mark a piece of Terrain as Dangerous Terrain for +25(maybe as high as +50) pts, up to three per HS slot used. Too powerful? Too useless?

[IncubiLord]

the army is designed to be on average, less powerful than a standard codex army.

To be perfectly blunt, the base army isn't competitive.

Its CC abilities are laughable (perhaps on par with the IG, maybe worse) and its only decent shooting comes from looted tanks with Ordnance weapons that don't require a to-hit roll (ala Orks with no twin-linked weapons lying around).

the ork loota rule though just doesn't seem to fit .

It could just as easily represent the people going home to get more ammo, hunkering down while checking their pockets and what-not. Using the "Gets Hot" rule also makes weapons that fire more per turn more likely to run out of ammo.

The problem with the ammo rule is that it's a single dice roll at the beginning of the game that can maul the army or leave it unharmed. 1-roll-4-teh-win situations irk people, and this one significantly hurts your already-poor shooting.

If you are ever in a hunting store and see a crossbow you'll understand why this just doesn't make sense as anything other than Heavy 1, these things are not easy to load and not fast firing

I've seen a crossbow.

I've made a small, working replica of the large-scale weapon that uses the same principles.

I agree that it shouldn't be Assault 2, because that reeks of the mythical Repeating Crossbow that better resembles a semi-automatic pistol.

However, this is either a very heavy crossbow akin to those that you have to stand on to load (which would be S4, AP4, Heavy1 - the IG dex equates carapace armor with primitive plate armor), or it's something that you can pull without standing on it like the earlier crossbows (in which case it deserves to be an Assault weapon). You can't take the worst traits of light and heavy crossbows and call that the standard.

Breakdown: Ya it is slightly harsher than the orks, but I also can't copy the Ork version for obvious copyright reasons.

It's not a direct copy if you keep the humorous spinning on a 6.

The main reason for the hightened cost of the Feral was their access to goodies not found in the mainstay of the list (special weapons)

Those goodies are already overpriced, no need to make the unit more costly.

Enslaved mutants may be too cheap

They cost less than a Guardsman, have 2 CCWs, and will last much longer in melee when given +1T or 5++Save - something's wrong with that picture.

I was actually worried about the Savage/Great weapon combination

Great weapons should probably cost 2 points.

Even with Bloated the Enslaved Mutants are basically Ork Boyz without... >snip< I don't think more than a point or two is needed is it?

The thing is, they serve very well to bog down enemy assaulters - 20 T4 models are hard to kill. If they charge an enemy assault squad you can probably hurt them a fair deal, too.

A squad of 5 Assault Marrines would get 10 attacks, of which 6.66 would hit, 3.33 would wound, and about 3 would kill. Coming back at them is 68 attacks, of which 22.66 would hit, 7.56 would wound, and about 2 would kill.

This uses mutants with 2CCWs, ignoring the shooting that would precede the melee.

Making them 8 points leaves them slightly less than a CC Ork, which is about right. I could buy that the mutations should cost one point less than the values I offered if the CC options cost more - 1 for CCW&Pistol, 2-3 for Great Weapon.

revolutionaries are paying too much for weapons, but I do still want them over-costed

Then go to normal IG prices. With the lower BS, these will still be high.

Technicals - I'd keep Mortar, H Stubber, and H Flamer at the current prices, but Missiles and Autocanon should be around 20 and H Bolder should run about 15 - this is taking into account the potential increase in BS.

I figured if you take three hammerheads in a 700pt Tau force taking three russes isn't that far out of line.

Limiting looted tanks to not outnumber revolutionaries won't have a massive effect, though.

You pretty much need 3 revolutionaries units to have a decent amount of Manpower, and 6 units if you're taking 6 Razorbacks/Chimeras isn't out of hand.

Opponent fun overruled the higher BS.

It's not a very competitive choice with Looted Leman Russ though.

Perhaps they'd be acceptable at BS4 if they worked in units of 1-3 instead of independently? Tank-hunting teams seem like a better unit to me anyways, and you can always choose to only use one if it's part of the army's fluff.

Ideally I do want this to be a unit you can't defeat with conventional means (something 40k is shy of), the Idea being you can't put down a riot easily by just unloading into it with bullets.

You also don't want to leave this unit as a powergaming tool.
With no leaders in some missions, they are fearless no matter what, and have to be avoided or killed by masses of templates.

Some armies aren't template-heavy, and certain builds of those forces may not have any. Perhaps if the army doesn't include any ICs at the beginning of the game, the unit is not fearless?

A mob of 100+ models would be hard enough to break without templates if it weren't Fearless, and I don't want that to be the only possible response in a twisted Combat Patrol.

IEDs - My current thought was the ability to mark a piece of Terrain as Dangerous Terrain for +25(maybe as high as +50) pts, up to three per HS slot used. Too powerful? Too useless?

I'd say that's a rather dud option.
How many Inquisition player do you know who use the Orbital Bombardment rules? That's even more dangerous terrain-specific attacks.

If you mark a woods as Dangerous terrain, it can be simply avoided or entered on the assumption that 1-in-6 dies isn't likely for small units or important to large, cheap units.

A bunch of counters for suspicious locations, some single-use explosives that hit a little harder than a krak missile, and the stray minefield would be better, imo.

[Zzarchov]

Carapace isn't medieval armour, there used to be Medieval plate armour in 40k, which worked to give you a 5+ save, but modern weapons (lasguns, autoguns, etc, anything but claws and crossbows or bows) ignored the save. Thats why the heavy powered crossbow is S4 AP-, it causes alot of injury when a bolt hits, but it just can't penetrate better than an AK-47 bullet which goes through about 8 inches of wood (better than a crossbow) and is AP- in 40k.

The mutants if anything are seeming to come off as too weak in your example. When your assault unit of about equal cost charges into an enemy assault unit , loses the combat, and then has to make a leadership check at Leadership 5 or almost invariabley get slaughtered to a man..doesn't that seem OVER priced to you? Having your assault unit charge his assault unit and still lose and die round 1? At being less than the ork pts wise they would be utterly terrible in comparison (quarter the WS, No Heavy CCW, worse gun, innability to stay in a losing combat and no Powerklaw nob or Burnas). I mean, mutants are an assault unit, and they are weaker than LatD mutants which are one point more with better stats and the option of TWO hidden EFFECTIVE powerfists (aspiring champion and a Mutant boss who alone can unload 5 powerfist attacks on the charge)

The tankhunters are still fairly competetive, for less points you get anti-tank power instead of template power, which in an army devoid of lascannons is pretty important. I myself use them (though thats partly because they look cool and you start to take pride in their feats as just "one man")


For the mob, you did uncover a big weakness and exploit.

What if they couldn't deploy until an Independant character came into play? To represent that the mob has to be incited? I think this issue definately needs fixing.

How is this for a solution:

I lowered the mobs LD to 4 and changed this rule.

Cut off the head and the serpent will die: If all of the Independent characters, which take an HQ slot, are killed each unit must take an unmodified morale check or be broken and unable to regroup. Units that pass this test are treated as fearless for the rest of the battle (they consider the leaders martyrs to be emulated). If there is ever a situation where you have no deployed Independent Characters nor have they all been killed (such as the deployment rules of a mission or a deep-striking character) any units which have a leadership value of less than five are considered pinned until an Independent Character enters the board to inspire them.

[IncubiLord]

Carapace isn't medieval armour, there used to be Medieval plate armour in 40k

Current IG codex, Carapace armor doctrine:
"Sometimes this will be conventional carapace armor, alternatively it may be bulky feral platemail."

Platemail grants a 4+ Armor save in 40K.

The mutants if anything are seeming to come off as too weak in your example. When your assault unit of about equal cost charges into an enemy assault unit , loses the combat, and then has to make a leadership check at Leadership 5 or almost invariabley get slaughtered to a man..doesn't that seem OVER priced to you?

Mutants are a fodder unit.

You have one of the Rebel Leaders join them and stand in the back of the squad, safely away from the enemy but close enough to gain his Ld bonus. Now, they are a T4 Ld10 wall to slow the enemy.

In the second turn of the mentioned melee, the 3 remaining Marines will kill 2 Mutants. In return, the Mutants will make 45 attacks, get 15 hits, do 5 wounds and kill 1.66 Marines.

Assuming that was 1 dead Marine, they will now do 4 attacks, get 2.66 hits, do 1.33 Wounds and kill one Mutant. In return, the Mutants will make 42 attacks, get 14 hits, do 4.66 wounds, and kill 1.56 Marines.

At this point, all the Assault Marines should be dead in exchange for 6 Mutants. Not bad for a crap unit, huh?

The tankhunters are still fairly competetive, for less points you get anti-tank power instead of template power.

The lower cost and the seperate-unit-per-model bit are the only reasons they're competitive. A battlecannon hits harder than a tank-hunter Missile against everything.

It will also hit about as often.

What if they couldn't deploy until an Independant character came into play? To represent that the mob has to be incited?

That could work.

lowered the mobs LD to 4 and changed this rule.

Cut off the head and the serpent will die: If all of the Independent characters, which take an HQ slot, are killed each unit must take an unmodified morale check or be broken and unable to regroup. Units that pass this test are treated as fearless for the rest of the battle (they consider the leaders martyrs to be emulated). If there is ever a situation where you have no deployed Independent Characters nor have they all been killed (such as the deployment rules of a mission or a deep-striking character) any units which have a leadership value of less than five are considered pinned until an Independent Character enters the board to inspire them.

This, too seems a decent solution.

Either way, you've dealt with the biggest issue I'm encountering in the basic list.

[Zzarchov]

I tend to prefer my Tank hunting Krak Missile against landraiders and Monoliths, those damn things seem to pop up all the time.

Don't get me wrong, Im not saying don't take a Russ or Bassie, but I'll always take one slot of tank hunters.

As for the mutants, isn't the same thing true of LatD mutants with an aspiring champion? (or even without)

Also, an updated version soon with many changes.

[Earlydawn]

Definitely don't lose the ammo rule, OR the ammo trucks. Give them the benefit to the ammo check, and any unit within 6" gains the extra ammo upgrade if there's no shortage. Rebels definitely value their supply trucks.

I love the IED concept as suggested with the counters.

I'd also remove the ability to take tanks from the IG force org chart as regular if you're going to offer stolen tanks, too. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth for some reason.

Another cool varient list I'd like to see would be an "army of desperation". An Imperium Deathworld surface research camp is cut off from orbital assets by an Ork fleet in the system. The single platoon of Imperial Guard draft the civies to maintain the perimeter until extraction can arrive..

[IncubiLord]

I tend to prefer my Tank hunting Krak Missile against landraiders and Monoliths, those damn things seem to pop up all the time.

You're not supposed to get the Tank Hunters' perk against Monoliths either, and battlecannons hit a Land Raider harder than Krak missiles.

As for the mutants, isn't the same thing true of LatD mutants with an aspiring champion? (or even without)

Not quite.
LatD Mutants cost more (yeah, I know that wasn't discussed) and don't come with 2 CCWs.
Their higher WS counters their fewer attacks in normal CC, though. On the charge, they'll actually do more hits (given equal numbers). However, their lower numbers from the increased cost will make them less of a threat and their Ld10 IC costs about twice as much.

Definitely don't lose the ammo rule, OR the ammo trucks.

Where are the ammo trucks? I don't see them in what I downloaded.

Another cool varient list I'd like to see would be an "army of desperation". An Imperium Deathworld surface research camp is cut off from orbital assets by an Ork fleet in the system. The single platoon of Imperial Guard draft the civies to maintain the perimeter until extraction can arrive..

Wouldn't that be using the two IG choices you just said to ditch - one IG Infantry platoon and maybe one other IG unit surrounded by shmoes?

On to the variant lists:
Redemptionists - May take Inquisitorial allies as per the standard 0-1 HQ, 0-1 Elite, 0-2 Troop, 0-1 FA?

Adding a contingent of Grey Knights in exchange for Mutants seems a pretty good deal. Adding Daemonhosts from the Daemonhunters 'dex seems way off, too.

I'd specify Inquisitorial allies from the WH 'dex.

Tau - Let me see if I've got this right, I could have a Tau rebellion consisting of:
2x Rebel Leader: Carapace Armor, Pulse Carbine, Bike = 68
3x 3 Lone Wolves = 162
6x 15 Revolutionaries: no upgrades = 360
2x 3 Sentinels: Lascannons = 330
1x 5 Technicals: Heavy Flamers = 150
1x Captured Leman Russ: 3x Heavy Bolters = 155
2x Hammerhead: Railgun, Smart Missiles, Multi-tracker, Target Lock = 350
Total = 1575

Plus some odds and ends on the Revolutionaries to reach 1850 or minus 2 Technicals to reach 1500, and you may have a fairly competitive list here. Almost too good...

Chaos - pretty much the same as the Tau, only replace those Hammerheads with Defilers and give the leaders Chaos Armor and Mark of Khorne/Tzeentch.

Does this army get manpower from Mutants AND Revolutionaries? If so, the potential for 9 Manpower points is impressive.

Genestealer Cult - Mutants (hybrids) should be allowed to take Rending Claws in place of other unit options - possibly 2 models with Rending claws (at +5-ish) instead of 1 special/heavy weapon - since they need to be a choice worth taking over Power Weapons.

The Patriarch isn't really a competitive choice with the Broodlord.
An extra wound isn't worth going down to a 5+ Save, the Living God ability isn't that great, and should really apply to the Broodlord as well, Feral Genestealer will almost never be usable, and trading in Infiltrate for a very fragile truck isn't the greatest plan. Not having power-weapon claws really detracts from him in a comparison as well.

Does a Mounted Rebel leader lose a point of Initiative if upgraded to a Mutant?

Taking Genestealers (no matter how many units) should cost a manpower point. Similarly, taking Hybrids with biomorphs/rending claws (no matter how many) should cost a manpower point.

These units need to be supported by people who can go in public places, but making each unit cost manpower would be harsh.

[(Evil)Ash]

I truly love your codex and I'll sure be using it one day.

[Zzarchov]

The Redemptionist Change is a good one and makes more sense.

Mutants can take Rending Claws. And the Mounted Leader upgraded would have I5 (Genestealer Hybrid rule)

Although Genestealers would seem to require a manpower point, I put them in the list of "Needed for Variant"In the same way Chaos rebellions can have Daemons without manpower points (but not Chaos Marines) and Tau can have Gue'vesa. Their Penalty being they all take up elite slots.

The Broodlord/Patriarch thing. The broodlord is definately a combat powerhouse, but the Living god ability of the patriarch does give him a use, and fluffwise a Broodlord wouldn't be around long enough to be venerated and set up a cult style worship.



Sorry Early dawn, the ammo trucks got ditched awhile back. Im considering throwing it back in though.