DRAIGO.
I'll deal with Dreadknights in the same way I deal with Tyranid MCs: brutally.
With Psycannons going to 24", I no longer fear the Grey Knights.
DRAIGO.
I'll deal with Dreadknights in the same way I deal with Tyranid MCs: brutally.
With Psycannons going to 24", I no longer fear the Grey Knights.
The Dark City, Wherein I Talk Dark Eldar Tactics And Continue To Write Way Too Much
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re: Archon gear
Huskblade/Soultrap: Seems a lot of folks feel there aren't enough targets to justify this. Really, though? I haven't run it myself, but I thought the Huskblade would be a good fit for people running their Archon in shardnet brides. That squad is wants to fight elite/small-size units already, and one Huskblade wound beats two with the Agonizer against Thunderwolves, Nob Bikes, Monstrous Critters, Paladins, etc. Or when charged by BA, husking the Sanguinary Priest before I5 is rather nice. Admittedly, it's rubbish against TH/SS squads. It'd go to town on razorwing flocks though.
Then if you already have it it almost seems a waste not to take the soul trap, I guess. You'll be happy you did if you play some dude with 6 liquifier gun haemonculae.
Ghostplate: I thought the point of this was to avoid rolling the shadow field when you can spare the wound. Still having your 2++ when the powerfist finally swings is key. Rolling 2 Ghostplate saves in I4 is a decent policy. Eating 1, rolling 2++ thereafter isn't bad either, but for some players, 10pts to avoid "god dammit" is fine.
Last edited by jumai; 15-03-2011 at 06:52.
The huskblade is terrifying if it works, but for that to work you need a lot of extras whereas the agonizer just works steadily without any further upgrades.
If you take a huskblade you will bring along a soul trap, its just to sweet not to.
Combat dugs are more effective for a huskblade build than a agonizer build (and a huskblade really wants that rerol to wound or +1str) especially considering most of a huskblade/soultrap target have T4 and up.
Ideally you also want furious charge for an extra strength on the charge this might lead to some haemonculy shenanigans.
These costs quickly add up.
Then there is the in game hassle, whereas an agonizer can be used anywhere because its effectiveness is constant both in time and against different opponents, this is not the case for a huskblade/soultrap.
If you have this huskblade/soultrap combo then you want to kill the weakest MC or HQ first to power up, and then move to the next target. A cunning opponent will abuse this. Of course you can go for the most dangerous ones first, but chances are you wont survive as a 6 to wound really hurts and generally they will ID you if you fail one safe.
As for elite small sized units, I'm not convinced that the huskblade is the clear winner. Especially if the enemy has a toughness of 5 or higher. Lets do the math: chances to hit are the same for huskblade and agonizer as are saves ,both only allow invulnerable saves . The only two differences are the to wound roll: 1/6 for husk and 3/6 for agonizer, and the huskblade deals double the amount of wounds (assuming 2 wound models). This leads to the Huskblades effectiveness of 2/6 whereas a agonizer still has 3/6.
If you manage to get the +1 strength this will change to 4/6 for the huskblade and 3/6 for agonizer.
A huskblade/soultrap combo can outshine an agonizer but it will cost more points, will often require some luck on combat drugs or rolling that 6, and put some serious constrains on your freedom, if you want to benefit from its special abilities.
As for the ghost plate its an interesting idea to take it just for those hits that wont ID your character, and with combat drugs no longer hurting us we can actually lose two wounds. But that leaves us with the questions weather +1as is really worth 10 points and how often your archon will be targeted by non ID attacks.
The Huskblade is overpriced to me simply because at S3 you have to start making all sorts of plans to up his strength (as Symrivven noted, but I'll cast in a more negative lights). At the point you are taking drugs and soul trap you are already getting a nasty character, even with a less powerful but less expensive weapon. And making an effort to give your Archon a Pain Token is just the same. A drugged, soul trapping, Furious Charge Archon with even just a Power Weapon is nasty enough and save a fair chunk of points.
As to using the Ghostplate in that manner, note that a lot of players feel that when the BRB says you use the "best save available" you have to use the save with the highest chance of passing the test (so you would take the 2+ before the 4+), not the save that is most advantageous in your mind. Some people play it different, but it is worth noting because you'll probably run into a fair amount of debate with that tactic.
Agreed you have to use best advailable but I still give mine ghost plate as well just in case the shadow goes pop and he still lives, saved mine a couple of times and yes it is last ditch desperation Tatics.
Hey, thanks for the detailed response.Originally Posted by Symrivven
We do seem to be coming at this item from different perspectives. You're describing an Archon who is included in order to convert soul trap into glorious win. While the idea is entertaining, I agree that for what would actually happen, you face too many logistics and incidental costs for it to be justifiable.
The Archon I was describing is something else; I did mention he was in Shardnet brides, right? It's actually the bloodbrides justifying this unit to me... their job is to have defensive grenades & 3x shardnet & 4++ & wounds for 13 points. They do it by embarrassing 400 point derp squads.
(Rolling 4-up saves against terminators, kitchen-sink crews, etc (or worse, a daemon prince) totally kicks the math out from under them. They're designed (and pointed) not to NEED volume; the wheels fall off when you give them rolls to fail. With their gear, bloodbrides are good at excaberating dice starvation, and with their cost, you can afford to spend models on threat diffusement.)
The Archon fits in here because without him, brides can struggle with damage back. For one thing a tarpit ought not to flee combat, but also it extends their utility if they whittle their target down while keeping them busy.
This is why I was assuming elite, dangerous-model targets for the Archon (and small, function of cost and for high shardnet:enemy ratio.) That is why I considered huskblades in the first place; I went in assuming there'd be fights against (pick a 55-point 40mm-based 5-toughess 11-strength flavour with 2 wounds and internally unique wargear).
On that note, yeah, wound allocation. Agonizers are solid for many reasons, but they're regrettably ill suited at grinding the first-wound buffer of squads that allocate like nob bikes. Let the siren cover the agonizer angle (you probably don't skip her, she brings an untargettable phantasm launcher and a weapon is good insurance against, ah, "sudden independence").
Combat Drugs: honestly I don't figure it's worth it. Feels like fat to me in every build.
Ghostplate: Well, not *everything* is S6 bypass 4+... there's that gun space marines have, you know, the troops ones?
Seriously though S5 + PW is usually overkill, lots of S5 attacks from combat specialists will grant a save. Besides the furious chargers there's Fiends(clawed too, I meant the chaos seahorse), basic thunderwolf, various tyranid specimin... technically CSM with Enhanced Warriors, who are still better than Possessed. And when shooting does take place, the Archon may be the only model rolling saves.
re: rolling 4+ with shadow field. The wording "Always choose the best" looks deliberately permissive (you "choose", selecting an undefined qualitative). It also looks like a place where permission is required, because otherwise you "Roll a D6 for each wound the model has suffered and compare the results to the model's Sv characteristic." The intent here seems to be ensuring you never have to roll armour when cover/etc would be better.
(there's that meaningless word again, "the best" isn't a property of saves... "choose the best" communicates descision and opinion, and it avoids specifying anything. Rules imposing restrictions aren't written like that. They're more like... in what, two pages... ahem
"If amongst the unsaved wounds there are some which inflict instant death, the player must first, if possible, remove one unwounded model for each unsaved wound which causes instant death, and then proceed as normal (this is done for each group of identical multiple-wound models). This rule is designed to stop players from avoiding single wounds by putting them on models who have suffered instant death anyway."
To tell the difference, simply check for the silent "...and no amount of fiangling will change it!")
Last edited by jumai; 15-03-2011 at 19:57.
No, you don't need to do any of those things.
My standard Archon is 145 points including Drugs (which I'd take even with an Agonizer, as only one of the rolls doesn't help that weapon), Huskblade/Soultrap, Clone Field and Ghostplate.
The Archon gets 6 attacks on the charge. Assuming no beneficial results on the drug table (ie., you got the 3d pick the highest run drug), you'll have six attacks. when he launches an assault. The Archon's WS means that he will average 4 attacks when he charges.
Those four hits, against T4 opponents, have an 80% chance of getting at least 1 roll of a "5+."
Against T5 or 6 opponents, those four hits have a 52% chance of getting at least one "6."
If you factor drug results 3, 4, and 5, the odds increase. After the first kill, the S6 is huge.
You only need to get one wound through against anything not immune to instant death. Yes, the opponent might quite likely have an invulnerable save, but he'll have that against the Agonizer, too. Too often, when looking at the Huskblade, people fall into the trap of thinking about a need to cause as many wounds as possible. You don't needs lots of wounds with the HB against most multi-wound models. Even against single wound models in the T4 range, the Huskblade will only, on average, cause one fewer wound per assault phase.
If you keep this in mind, you don't have to worry about the stated tactic of going after a weaker IC or MC. I run my Archon in a unit of Bloodbrides with 3 Shardnets. My 'Nets hug the target IC/MC, and my Archon wails on it. Even if the IC/MC doesn't die that round, it loses three attacks. If they direct those attacks at the Archon, he ignores D3 HITS each assault phase. So far, this combination has yet to result in my Archon dieing in Assault. He's been shot off the board, but has yet to be killed by anything in HTH.
I have had tremendous luck with this combination, to the point that a lot of my opponents complain about it. It's gotten to be even a bit of a psychological issue as my opponents game plan around trying to not let the Archon, et al., get in a position to assault.
My suggestion is this: simply play the build out yourself. From what I see in these posts, it appears that those who don't like the Huskblade/Soultrap combination dislike it not because they have actually played it and found it lacking, but because, to them, it doesn't look as attractive on paper.
Amending this. Psychic Pilots are now counted as a psyker. Crucible a go.
It will be interesting to see the rules explosion that happens with psychic squads. Technically, the entire unit counts as a single squad. So, what happens? Test and remove the Justicar as I suggested and as you would via their stated Perils of the Warp Test? Make all of them test? Test once and remove the entire unit on failure?
Clarification needed!
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@Hashmal: I guess its just the Justicar. It will be interesting though if a Land Raider fails his test, what happens to the Unit inside it..
@Saldiven: I play my archon with a shadowfield instead of the Clonefield-Ghostplate Combo, and so far it has worked for me. My enemy even put ID shots onto his CM to kill them befor my archon can get to him XD
It definitely is a good choice, if you know how to use it.
Their book says that only the Justicar suffers the wound from Perils of the Warp. I think it's fairly safe to assume this applies to all "the psycher" effects as well.
I'd say each model in range, individual checks. Because that makes logical sence. Chances are they would all pass anyway. How does it work for seer councils?
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@ Jumai
We indeed seem to come at this from different perspectives. I didn't really consider the archon as an upgrade for a tarpit unit. I can imagine you want to give your tarpit some bite and leadership so they can actually hold their ground but for this to warrant an archon you must indeed face some really expensive enemies, and apparently you do with units at 400 points. Your argument concerning wound allocation is a good one, sacrificing a bit of overall effectiveness to actually remove models has its merits especially versus nobz and the like.
As for the ghostplate, our archons seem to be clearly living different lives. Mine is rarely targeted by things that can't ID it and by the time he has to eat bolter fire the **** clearly has already hit the fan.
@ Saldiven
Your math is correct but I would draw other conclusions.
An archon that hits on 2/3, wounds on 1/6 vs t5+ on 2/6 vs t4 and 3/6 with agonizer.
We look at the chance of killing your target with 90% certainty. The huskblade only needs to score 1 wound to do so, the agonizer 3 wounds. In the table below I show the number of attacks you need to make to reach this 90% chance of killing your target. (1 or more or 3 or more successes)
save.......... - 4++ 3++
Agonizer..... 14 31 47
Huskblade t4 9 20 30
Huskblade t5 20 41 62
Invulnerable saves have the same effect on all weapons, 4++ doubles the number of attacks needed while a 3++ requires a further 1.5 times the number of attacks.
The agonizer is weaker versus t4 multiple (3) wound models but stronger versus t5 multiple wound models than an nonboosted huskblade.
Versus your average marine you need 6 attacks to have a 90% chance of causing at least one wound with an agonizer, while it takes 10 with a huskblade.
The extra benefit the agonizer has is that it can work with other models. If the archon deals 2 wounds and the squad/champion deals a further one the enemy is dead while any wounds caused on a model that you want to ID with a huskblade is a waste of resources.
The table clearly show that if equipped with a huskblade it certainly pays to try and increase your strength (or wound chance) and it does pay of to visit a weaker target first (if you have a soultrap). Killing a t4 model is twice as likely to happen than killing a t5+ model, in the same vein having a strength of 4 instead of 3 greatly helps. Choosing a target with no or a weaker invulnerable save certainly has its benefits to.
Of course an agonzier will also take longer to kill the tougher opponent (only when the save or wounds differ) but it will not benefit from attacking one sooner than the other as opposed to the huskblade/soultrap.
lets assume a wolf priest t4, 4++ save SM and a wolflord on thunderwolf (t5) with 3++ (yes I know this is as tough as it gets but it shows the principle clearly)
Killing the wolflord first and then the priest will take 69 (62+7) attacks (90% chance to kill).
Killing the priest first and then the lord will take 35 (20+15) attacks (90% chance to kill).
In short you want to double your strength asap and the best way to do this is by killing the weakest target first.
And yes I did use the huskblade soultrap, but might not have been as lucky as you. And of course an archon lives long in a unit of shardnet brides but that isn't really what we are discussing now. Or do you think the huskblade is only viable in a unit of shardnet brides, if so then we can add an extra condition to the list of conditions that need to be met to make the husk blade really work.
Again I'm not saying the huskbalde/soultrap is bad, but I believe my original point stands, that apart from its benefit against wound allocation, It really takes some extra point investments and or freedom to make it outperform an agonizer, but if you pull it off you'll have virtual god of death walking the battlefield.
I'm actually comparing it on what players that run a huskblade generally use for the build, which is a 200 pt character designed to kill ICs and already starts with enough wargear to kill an elephant. This build is not an effective use of points.
I get the whole triple shardnet build, and if I took an Archon with a huskblade (which I don't think I'd ever do for one reason) he wouldn't have much else because he doesn't deserve 200 pts for the role he fills. I was trying to agree with you in that you don't need the number of add-ons people feel are mandatory, but one thing I'll point out is your Archon might not have those other options that increase his cost, but he does have a squad that costs a decent chunk to be his bodyguard.
But I won't take a Huskbladed Archon because I don't like having to use him as a MC or IC problem solver. I want my list to be my problem solver. I'm more interested in building and learning how to use what I have to counter as much as possible. I prefer the Blaster Archon with minimal expenditure on points, when I take an Archon, which I don't regularly do.
Would you say Haemoculi are the best all round budget HQ?
I would say so. I have yet to actually use an archon or succubus in the new codex, as taking haemonculi as HQ is a) cheap, and b) allows an immediate pain token buff for other units.
Definitely
It takes about 5 seconds of looking at the succubus to realise that this is a fluff option only. Hats off if you want to use one, your opponent will think you are a jolly decent chap.
The Archon is a bit of a luxury IMO. Expensive but only really lethal against certain enemies. You can go for a really expensive config and get something sickeningly lethal if you are very, very lucky. Over all i dont think they are worth it any more.
The Archon is needed if you want to run the other luxury unit, the Incubi. Once again a unit that is completly lethal vs one type of foe and really needs babysitting if that foe is sitting in ruins.
I ran both of these units intially and Im much happier with my 3 Haemonculi
They each sit in a raider with their wych entourage providing the pain token that they really need to keep them alive in combat. They also have a liquefier each so the can lean out of the raiders and spray passers by should the mood take them. Not much of a loss if they die and if they find themselves in combat they might do the odd wound.
Oh god, it's like this codex was written specifically to give DE someone to completely and utterly screw over :P
I would assume that all sane and reasonable players would. This is exactly how I play it. Or would, if I were to ever take a Crucible...
However, I foresee people going multiple ways in interpretation. In fact...
This is a perfect example. Two different interpretations literally back-to-back.
However, this interpretation is not one I can support with a rules argument, even though I did suggest it above. The rule literally reads that the entire unit counts as a single psyker, so there's no basis for suggesting that it goes model by model.
Seer Councils are not a lateral comparison. All the models in a Seer Council are treated as individual psykers.
edit:
Haemonculi are awesome, indeed. The sole reason I don't take one is that I hate, hate, HATE the old models.
Last edited by Hashmal; 16-03-2011 at 18:56.
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I guess each HQ has it's place.
Haemis are for those, that take heavy shooty lists, as they tend to be vehicle vs infantry and infantry vs vehicles, they do not generate too many Pain tokens.
And to spend even more points on your Units, you take the cheapest HQ available - its like saying, HQs are all not great, so lets take the one that cost the least.
But thats just my impression.
The Succubus, in my opinion is the best choice, if you want an agoniser HQ. Cheaper then the Archon, but does the same damage.
I play the archon, as the Boss. and the Boss does not care about slaying the weak file warriors, he takes on the Big guys, and whats better then an Instand death weapon?
And while the enemy commander thinks about ways to save his favorite Model a fate stuck in a small burning pyramid i go and kill the other half of his army.
The statement of being predictable, if your taking a soul trap archon is right, but only if you always try to get it triggered. If he lets you, then be happy, if he runs, then use the weak spot that opened, because he has to change his tactic.
well thats the way i play my games. just like a game. a game of pain. XD sorry had to write that.
sláinte
To be honest the Succubus is good, its a poor man's Archon. If you need to make a unit dead they'll both do the job, its just the Archon is more customizable and can take more of a beating in combat due to Shadow/Clone Fields.
Right, I need some advice on how to increase my army up to 1,750 then 2,000 points, here is my current 1,500 list:
HQ
Lady Malys: 130
ELITES
6 Incubi: Klaivex with Demi Klaives: 167
Raider: Flickerfield: 70
TROOPS
10 Kabalite Warriors: Blaster: 105
Raider: Flickerfield: 70
5 Kabalite Warriors: Blaster: 60
Venom: Splinter Cannon: 65
5 Kabalite Warriors: Blaster: 60
Venom: Splinter Cannon: 65
10 Wyches: Hekatrix with Agonizer, Haywire Grenades: 150
Raider: Flickerfield: 70
HEAVY SUPPORT
Ravager: Flickerfields: 115
Ravager: Flickerfields: 115
Void Raven: 2 Implosion Missiles, Flickerfields, Night Shields: 225
1,467
I normally run 5 Scourges with 2 Heat Lances and a Cronos instead of the Void Raven but i'm sick of having to use several units to gun down Marines and a few people in my area are switching to Grey Knights and they will need to learn that large Paladin units just aren't cricket. This list does well, I can reliably tackle most things apart from Tau, someone in my local shop runs the optimal 1,500 build and I just can't get close enough to do anything.
I was thinking of running a 10 man Scourge unit with Haywire Blasters to shut down tanks but a Trueborn Blaster unit is tempting. A large unit of Khymerae with Razorwing Flocks and a Clawed Fiend (for the model) to draw fire away from my Raiders. I just can't decide. A small unit of Incubi in a Venom is also tempting as my 6 man unit (to accompany Malys) has worked really well.
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