So, Ravagers... They used to be a no-brainer 3 Disintegrator setup, but with the Aerial Assault rule and the change to Disintegrators that has changed somewhat. I've been running a few games lately with a 2DL, 1 Dis configuration which in my opinion works really well as it gives you a lot of flexibility. How do other people arm theirs?
Attention all planets of the Solar Federation:
We have assumed control.
Prog-lover and \m/ Metalhead of Warseer \m/Originally Posted by RampagingRavener
MMm, Dark Eldar/Ork combo army...*drools*
I don't think you can loose with that amount of awsome in your army.
3 DL. I've been relying on massed sharding to kill infantry, but I still haven't had the time for too many games.
Hey guys. I've been thinking of running this Archon setup, just for jokes, and want to know people's opinions of it:
Archon
Huskblade
Soul Trap
Combat Drugs
Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Shadow Field
Court of the Archon
2 Medusa
2 Llhamadeans (the poison ladies...)
Venom
Splinter Cannon
I plan to run it in a Kabal heavy list. Thoughts?
Your court is invalid. Every model in the court is 1-X, so you need at least 1 Sslyth and one Ur-Ghul as well. Yes, it's stupid, it makes the Court pretty much useless in most lists, but it's the way it's written, and it hasn't been modified by the FAQ.
Being able to fire all weapons at cruising speed is good, but you still need to fire everything at the same target, and in my experience there are enough armored targets on the field to keep my 2-3 Ravagers busy the whole game. So, sadly, I don't use Disintegrators on them, and like N3p3nth3 use poison weapons (and close combat) against most infantery.
a few questions:
1) Have DE won any big tournaments, or ranked highly? If so was there one build they all used, or has there been a variety?
2) Now that we've got lots of play in, are Trueborn still used mainly as a blaster delivery system or has going shardcarbining also done well? How successful have people been with Duke+Trueborn? This seems to stem mainly from 5e's abundance of vehicles to destroy though.
3) Is there really any reason to take scourges over heatlance reavers or trueborn in a raider? Even as a suicide squad, the blaster's inferiority to melta really cuts their odds.
Haywire blasters = super vehicle suppression. a 5 man unit will reliably shut down a vehicle every turn. Who cares if they don't kill it, lots of vehicles out there can kill 130 points of our army with one shot so points well spent
Ahhh, the internet, where people lose all social inhibitions and somehow everyone gets compared to the losers in WWII
I use the 2 DL/1 Dis configuration in smaller games, where I'm more likely to take out all vehicular targets relatively early in the game, making the bit of extra anti-infantry punch more useful later on (and dissies are still useable against A10 vehicles). For larger games, I go 3 DLs per ravager, to provide usually-much-needed dedicated anti-tank support.
Yeah, basically I'm with you. My ravagers are always 3 DL for me to bust open tanks and personal carriers. We have sooo many other options to kill infantry.
I'd be interested in anyones thoughts on 3 x dissies, if people still play with that type of set up.
@ John Wayne, how keen are you on your court, because really incubi do a better job supporting a HQ + supporting kabal list. I beleive you could make a nice little CC or fire support unit out of a Court, not to menition a great unit to model and paint. Alhough at the end of the day straight out Incubi's or trueborn support seems to be a better valued unit.
@ Lethlis; Haywire blasters look amazing, they really do. I've been running 10 man units of scourges when ever I get the chance(my favorite unit in the game) as shooty support in a kabal list. I'm thinking of trying out 4 x H.Blasters as glancing support for 3 x CC Talos to work off of for tank busting. Like how Nidz use V.Cannons anti-tank for Carnies to work off. I'm glad people like this item, I wasn't sold on it at first, but the range on the weapon makes it worth a go.
.......... alittle more ....... a little more.
Not that I've seen, but I don't follow the tournament scene. Also, it's still early enough in the year that "big" tournaments haven't really started up yet. Adepticon is this weekend; should be interesting to see what comes out of that.
I skip a lot of tournaments because my painting is slow and terrible.
However, with the DE release in June, I aim to field a Venom spam list that'll make people cry.
Blaster Trueborn remain some great bang for your buck. Shardcarbine/Cannon Trueborn with the Duke remain a decent option, but suffer from a few drawbacks: average later-game applicability owing to fewer targets early on and a big "SHOOT THIS" sign above their heads. Still, it is an option for dealing with mass infantry. I haven't heard of anyone having problems with such things, though.
If you're only using your Scourges for Heat Lances, you'll probably get more mileage out of the Reavers. For every other weapon configuration, I recommend the Scourges (though I recommend Blasters on neither). Scourges can play a suppression game in a half squad configuration or go full squad and pack a ton of Carbines/Cannons on a resilient (for DE) chassis that also maintains high mobility. Honestly, I'd look to these guys before Carbine Trueborn. The increase in points buys you a lot.
They're only a little expensive for a suicide squad. Termicide is ~100 points; these guys are over 130. Termicide can fire once and needs to be closer; Scourges can fire multiple times (assuming they live). I still wouldn't use them in this capacity, though: as I said above, if you want Heat Lance delivery, you want Reavers. Scourges are suboptimal at the job.
Suppression is underrated and I'll never figure out why. Perhaps playing against a Guard player for 8 years cottoned me on to it early enough. Anywho, my one issue with Scourge suppression is that it's a bit expensive and fragile for suppression. Other excellent suppression platforms (Rifledreads, Psyrifledreads, Lootas, Long Fangs, on and on and on) are devastating against light armor and, on a per-shot average, cheaper. The only thing Scourges have going for them over other options is mobility. With a 24" gun, though, they don't exactly need it.
Still, I am so playing around with these guys once the models are released, especially if the rumor that they're plastic is true.
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Well...that's interesting.
Why would you prefer Reavers with HL to Scourges? The first ones are more fragile when not turboboosting (everything is AP 5...) and also more expensive. Especially if coming out of a WWP, they both move 12" ( Reavers with HL should only move 12" anyway).
And I don't know about Haywire Blasters and suppression fire... Sure it's easy to get a glance, but lots of armies downgrade Stunned to Shaken some also completely ignore them (Chaos). Is HL not better as you get the same number of shots, a better chance of having penetrating hits (and still a good chance to have glancing his), and AP 1 helps avoiding the just Stunned or Shaken. I just don't really see the point of Haywire Blaster... What do you all think?
So you can take a "Feel No Pain" save vs. taking a self-propelled exploding rocket to the face... but can't take it against tripping on a tree root."My foot! The pain! I can't go on anymore!"
Reavers win that game as a) you'll want to spend the first turn getting to your target and inside melta range (9"), so the 36" move wins. The cover save you get from that is tasty too. b) as eldar jetbikes, they can play hide and seek: 12" move, shoot, 6" move.
As for points, Reavers and Scourges cost the same, both per model and per heat lance. The only difference is that you have to take 6 Reavers for 2 heat lances, while with Scourges it is only 5 models for 2 heat lances.
If you want to take smaller squads, then 3 reavers can take a heat lance. However, anything less than 5 scourges are stuck with shardcarbines.
That was sort of my point: if you want to go 2HL you HAVE to pay more points (the other Reavers are just spare wounds). I'm also running WWP lists, so the turboboost wouldn't be something I need.
Thoughts on the Haywire Blasters?
So you can take a "Feel No Pain" save vs. taking a self-propelled exploding rocket to the face... but can't take it against tripping on a tree root.
I can live with 22 points, especially when the units can duck in and out of cover on the same turn so your opponent has a much harder time getting a shot off on them.
re Haywire Blasters: 130 points for what averages out at fractionally over 1 glancing hit per unit. Meh. The guns are nice, but limiting them to Scourges only was a bit of a daft move when there are so many good FA options.
The TL Haywire Blasters on the Talos are the most enticing option considering all the other nifty things attached to it. Its an excellent option to bog down vehicles until you get close for those delicious MC attacks.
Along the shore the cloud waves break/The twin suns sink beneath the lake/Strange is the night where black stars rise/And strange moons circle through the skies/Songs that the Hyades shall sing,/Where flap the tatters of the King/Song of my soul, my voice is dead/Die thou, unsung, as tears unshed...
Regarding Reavers vs Scourges, beside the 6" Assault Move and initial 36" Turboboosting move, another thing to consider is the fact that Reavers have Skilled Riders. This is quite important, this will help them hug cover while still moving at full speed. Scourges on the other hand will have a greater chance of dying to dangerous terrain tests if they want to do that (I know, they can still move 6" to be safe, but that's going to be trickier to get in range)
Scourges seem great on paper, 4 haywire blasters that glance on a 2+ look like a reliable shutdown on a vehicle to me. That and there's still 6 guys with carbines for anything cruising around with a wounds characteristic. I'm not the best player but reavers seem to jet, suck up some shooting, melt a tank (hopefully kill it =/), then die. Beasts are great at sucking up shooting, screening, and tarpitting if you bring enough. I've had mixed results on vehicle suppression with them, but I did multi-charge a chimera line with them and keep a whole side of the board on lockdown for a couple of turns. That was lucky. The army I'm looking to make after scourge models come out is a unit of 10 scourges, 6 reavers with 2 heat lances, and x amount of beasts. Imo we have some of the best FA options out there.
On the court comments above, why would you only want lhameans and medusae? The medusae shooting attack is more random than the liquifier, and the lhameans may put out a couple 2+ hits in combat or one poisoned shot a turn. Wowee. The ur-ghuls and the sslyth seem to me like the ones with the teeth, and the lhameans and medusae are mostly there for leadership 8 and some situational shooting, like the beastmasters.
Thanks, opened my mind a bit more, I had kind of started to shut down Reavers AND Haywire B.
So you can take a "Feel No Pain" save vs. taking a self-propelled exploding rocket to the face... but can't take it against tripping on a tree root.
I've written at length about the benefits of Reavers. As for what they offer over Scourges, the benefits are several.
First, they can arrive in position with a greater degree of reliability and can be ready to threaten Turn 2, almost no matter what. Scourges, for that same positional supremacy, Deep Strike - hardly reliable.
Second, Reavers can shoot-and-scoot. Don't underestimate this as a tactical move. To get double-dice range (and you WANT that range with a S6 Meltagun), you must enter Rapid Fire range. Scourges must remain in this range for the following turn. Reavers, however, can move out, potentially forcing the opponent to make a less-than-desirable choice as far as movement is concerned. I know I've splintered enemy forces in the past through this.
Third, and an outlier I admit, is that Reavers can gain a Pain Token through Combat Drugs. Scourges need a Haemonculus to start, though this is more reliable. It's also a questionable use of a Haemonculus.
Fourth, Reavers are T4. This only applies as a bonus if you've scooted into Cover.
Fifth, Reavers have Skilled Rider for that shoot-and-scoot. They risk their meltagunners far less than Scourges landing in cover (1/36 chance of death per dude entering terrain versus 1/6 for the Scourges).
Now, what do the Scourges have going for them?
Higher armor save and a pitiful invulnerable save. It might be a bad save, but they do have an invuln. Ghostplate is a very big deal on the Scourges, actually, as the majority of small arms weapons in the game deny the Reaver's AS, but not the Scourges'. The difference between a 4+ and a 5+ is night and day when compared to a 5+/6+ or a 3+/4+.
Second (and lastly), they have a slightly lower buy-in cost. For any real attempt at vehicle pop, you're going to want more than 1 HL. Ease of destruction and high variance on results are the reasons I dismiss MSU Reavers (they should be used to sink floater points and I can always think of a better use). As you pointed out, 5 Scourges are needed for 2x HLs versus 6 Reavers.
Now, here's the twist: I don't really view either as an AT platform. Reavers are primarily anti-infantry with some wicked duality in Heat Lance spam. They're a great target-of-opportunity unit and positively nasty against flanks, outliers, or Vindicares. Scourges are a toolkit special weapons platform; however, I look to Cannons on them to complement their already-excellent sidearms. Scourges planted in cover with 3x Carbines, 2x Cannons makes for a pretty darned scary anti-infantry firebase. It's just not seen much because FA is the only reasonable slot to access dedicated AT. Boo.
Shaken is actually okay with the DE. We lean on Lances a lot for destruction. If your firing platforms are shaken, you can't sink our mobile AT weaponry. As DE are pretty mobile as-is, a still-mobile-but-unable-to-shoot opponent is just fine. The bonus to the Haywire Blaster is its range: 24" is nothing to sneeze at on a few dudes who can move 12" a turn.
There are 3 armies that can completely ignore these effects: Grey Knights (only on their turn and requires a Psychic Test, so does not work 1/12 of the time and sometimes a Perils will do more than you just did), Chaos (expensive and not prevalent), and Daemons (and if you can't sink Soul Grinders with Dark Lances, we need to have a chat). Grey Knights are the only army that risk any real prevalence of this ability. Not something to plan around in my opinion.
Understand that WWP armies are a subsect of the main codex and not the way the majority of DE players field their force. It's important to frame your questions around this, as until I read this post I did not know. The brunt of tactical information you'll find in this thread relates to non-WWP armies.
I argue Scourges are actually better in a WWP army.
The Dark City, Wherein I Talk Dark Eldar Tactics And Continue To Write Way Too Much
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