Dark Eldar (DE) Strategy Guide 5th

[Raibaru]

Yea, the Klavex should have come with the PGL to entice people to take him. As it stands, almost everyone suggestions just taking 4-7 incubi and that's all. The other things just don't pull their own weight.

So you're really left to using Wyches as the tarpits and sending Incubi in to clear the assault so they can attack at initiative, or giving them an archon with pgl with a venom blade or something like that for a premium.

Shame Drazhar didn't come with one. Really puts the breaks on him when joining a squad too.

[GreySeerZ]

I mean I can understand why wyches CAN be used as an tar pit, but I don't see why they HAVE to be relegated to just that. In a list composed of mostly warriors, trueborn, venoms and ravagers there use as an tar pit is possible. But lists with multiple wych squads can be deadly in assault with or without incubi. DE's added mobility makes it easy to maneuvre wych units where they need to be to combine assaults against tougher units.

Like tyranids/orks/etc. massed attacks can drop heavily armed/armored close combat troops just as well as smaller elite units. Add to this the fact that the unit will have a 4+ invuln and can also be supplied with 4+ FnP and I think massing wyches can be very deadly, especially if leaders are equipped with an Agonizers.

[N3p3nth3]

To confound the issue, the only reliable form of armour for the Archon is a one per army, of which many of the special charactors wear (Baron, Duke, Asdrubael).

Not sure what this form of armour is, since there isn't a single item on the Archon gear list that would be limited to 1 per army. The Shadow Field, which I assume you are talking about, definitely isn't!

[GreySeerZ]

Not sure what this form of armour is, since there isn't a single item on the Archon gear list that would be limited to 1 per army. The Shadow Field, which I assume you are talking about, definitely isn't!

Yea, I'm pretty sure both ghost plate and Shadow Field are available throughout.

There is no reason an Archon should be built defensively anyway as their true strength is found in the attack, and although shadow field makes them somewhat resilient, massed attacks/shots will drop it easily. Add to that the fact that most opponents will throw power weapon/power fist units against him anyway (negating armor regardless, and insta-killing him with anything St6 and up) I'd have to believe it would be a waste of points.

Special characters should be taken because of their abilities, not necessarily what they can do in shooting/combat (most die pretty easily). Vect for is 4+, Sath for his +1, Sliscus for deepstrike/combat drugs, etc. For their relatively low costs, these bonuses are great. Besides this most characters should just be thrown where they have the potential to do the most damage (combat) and should ride with either wyches or incubi. Only exception being haemonculus, which can be used to simply hand over pain tokens, or with a unit of wracks for CC and trickery.

[Hashmal]

CC assault is a completely viable option. The one major downside is exploding vehicles or retribution from squads inside, however, there are ways to counter this. Some considerations if going CC vehicle hunting.

CC as an AT option should always be secondary to shooting. The two downsides you posit are both accurate and both extremely deadly to our army.

1. Wych Squads MUST have an accompanying Haemonculus at the beginning of the game. The FnP transfer is essential and will protect them from the squad inside, the exploding tank AND possible retribution fire.

Agreed.

2. You MUST take lots of CC tank killers. 1 wych squad with haywires will not cut it. They may destroy their target, but will most likely be destroyed in return. However, with several wych squads you stand a good chance of not only destroying several vehicle targets in 1 turn (or atleast removing them as a threat) but also saturation of equal targets, forcing your opponent to focus one/two down (which will most likely be geting 4+ cover saves, either from the destroyed vehicle or intervening squads, and 4+ FnP) or spreading his fire, which is a great situation for you.

Again, agreed; however, intervening squad cover saves cannot be counted on. As your opponent's Movement Phase happens before his shooting, he has plenty of time to get out of the way.

If he's spreading his fire, he's doin' it wrong.

4. The Haemonculus (having fulfilled his role in supplying a pain token) can now cruise around on the raider. The raider can now take shots at other vehicles, or position the haemonculus for some sweet liquefier shots.

I'd put an "AND position" instead of an "or." Drive-by Flamers are a beautiful thing. However, this is not a consideration of vehicle hunting and does not require a CC-based approach to AT to field.

The benefits of CC assault:

1. With haywire grenades wyches have a good chance of ensuring that one vehicle is destroyed (especially if using rotation shenanigans for first turn charge, which I fully approve of in a tournament scene) and if possible the inside unit is unable to disembark and is also destroyed. The unit also ensures that several vehicles are not a threat for at least 1 turn (multi charges are crucial and removing several vehicles with hi shot, medium/low strength weapons is essential for protecting your glass jaw army). If these tanks cannot fire at your other transports containing wyches the opponent has 2 choices. Disembark the contained units to assault/shoot your wych squad (which will be in cover, striking first, with a 4+invuln and 4+FnP). You can then retaliate with remaining wych squads the next turn resulting, most likely, in the destruction of both the squads and vehicles. OR your opponent will sit tight, giving your wych squad one more turn to explode those vehicles and your other wych squads to assault/support elsewhere on the battlefield.

Much of this isn't working. First, Your Wyches do not have a good chance of destroying an enemy vehicle. Assuming you got your idyllic situation (though not the "vehicle surrounded" situation you envision; that simply will not happen) and charged a non-mobile vehicle first turn, you've only got 9 grenades going at it ('cause of the Haemonculus you pointed out earlier), of which you'll only generate an average 1.5 Pens and an average 6 Glances, with 1.5 misses. Looking for a straight-up Wrecked or Explodes result, your odds hover slightly around 40%. Then, your at-the-minimum 108 point squad dies to return fire, no questions asked. No cover saves at all (unless the opposing vehicle was already sitting in it and asking for the charge).

If the vehicle is suppressed but not destroyed, how are you going to be in cover when they disembark and shoot you? Where are you getting a 4+ Invulnerable save from? Further, how will you be in cover if it is destroyed? You can't consolidate after destroying an enemy vehicle in CC.

2. Haywire weapons are one of our only ways to combat the dreaded Monolith spam and blessed hulls, both of which are common in the tournament scene.

No, they certainly are not. Black Templars and Necrons ain't exactly rippin' up the tournament circuit.

3. Dual purpose. CC and Tank hunting in one squad performs much like true-born blaster venoms (shooting and tank hunting in 1 squad). Diversifying the role of every unit makes the army flexible.

The beauty of Blasterborn Venoms is that they are two squads not one. They are able to engage two targets separately a turn while only hogging one Force Org slot.

Incubi are good, but cost more to be worse against a lot of things.

Worse against a lot of things? They cost more to be absolutely amazing against multiple targets, but avoid charging Power Weapon squads unless they can butcher them first. Wyches cost less and are mediocre against a larger variety of targets.

Incubi are amazing at killing 10 man squads. (even thunder hammer/storm shield will have an issue with the number of attacks hits on 3+, wounding on 4+, and striking first.) They also do better vs hoard units.

Everything strikes first against TH/SS Termies. Incubi are not what you want to be throwing up against these guys.

But wyches are better vs Tanks, Dreadnaughts, Daemons, Monstrous Creatures, Vs power weapons that strike them first or Simultaneously (silly Grey Knights). And wyches are still very solid vs the 10 man squad and hoards, just not as good as incubi. With the added bonus of being a scoring unit.

Of what you said there, the only things that really apply are Daemons, Monstrous Creatures, and Grey Knights. Wyches are better against Tanks and Dreadnoughts with their Grenades, true. However, my Dark Lance is much better against both of those things than my Wyches.

The other things just don't pull their own weight.

Are you seriously suggesting that Wracks, Hellions, Grotesques, and Beastmasters do not pull their weight in CC?

I'll grant you Mandrakes and I'll sort-of (very grudgingly) grant you Harlequins and Bloodbrides. The above four, though, no way.

Shame Drazhar didn't come with one. Really puts the breaks on him when joining a squad too.

I find it to be more of a shame that Drahzar went from being a slightly pricey but pretty awesome character to an unwieldy points-bloated squad blender.

I mean I can understand why wyches CAN be used as an tar pit, but I don't see why they HAVE to be relegated to just that.

They do it better than anything else in the book. The other roles people try to fit them into have better answers in our book. Yeah, the square peg can fit in the round hole if you file it down a bit, but why not just use the round peg in the first place*?

*note: if you're playing a Wych Cult, that's an entirely different story.

Like tyranids/orks/etc. massed attacks can drop heavily armed/armored close combat troops just as well as smaller elite units. Add to this the fact that the unit will have a 4+ invuln and can also be supplied with 4+ FnP and I think massing wyches can be very deadly, especially if leaders are equipped with an Agonizers.

Unlike Tyranids or Orks, we cannot continuously generate that volume of attacks. Orks and Tyranids generate such attacks through the application of one or maybe two squads; to get to that same level, DE must apply three squads! Further, both squads get beneficial rules to support them in smashing the enemy, whereas Wyches need to decimate squads before such things really come into play.

Yea, I'm pretty sure both ghost plate and Shadow Field are available throughout.

They are. There's no defensive wargear that's Unique. He's thinking of the old rules for the Shadow Field, which no longer apply.

There is no reason an Archon should be built defensively anyway as their true strength is found in the attack, and although shadow field makes them somewhat resilient, massed attacks/shots will drop it easily. Add to that the fact that most opponents will throw power weapon/power fist units against him anyway (negating armor regardless, and insta-killing him with anything St6 and up) I'd have to believe it would be a waste of points.

Agreed. I can't fathom making a defensive Archon. They're just not good tanks because of that silly T3. If you want to make the tarpit to end all tarpits, grab a Succubus with Shardnet/Impaler and a squad of Bloodbrides kitted out the same. It won't kill much, but nothing will ever get to attack worth spit.

Special characters should be taken because of their abilities, not necessarily what they can do in shooting/combat (most die pretty easily). Vect for is 4+, Sath for his +1, Sliscus for deepstrike/combat drugs, etc. For their relatively low costs, these bonuses are great. Besides this most characters should just be thrown where they have the potential to do the most damage (combat) and should ride with either wyches or incubi. Only exception being haemonculus, which can be used to simply hand over pain tokens, or with a unit of wracks for CC and trickery.

I'd humbly point out that you take the Baron for his Hellion troops before his meager bonus to going first.

[Raibaru]

Yea, Drazhar is quite a disappointment. I'm personally hoping GW will do something to improve the Phoenix Lords in the Eldar codex and maybe they'll FAQ in some improvements to Drazhar. Him and the Incubi were the main reasons I took up Dark Eldar.

[lethlis]

Just make him a regular IC and he becomes amazing. I just imagine him in a unit of grotesques. shudder.....

[SgtTaters]

Agreed. I can't fathom making a defensive Archon. They're just not good tanks because of that silly T3. If you want to make the tarpit to end all tarpits, grab a Succubus with Shardnet/Impaler and a squad of Bloodbrides kitted out the same. It won't kill much, but nothing will ever get to attack worth spit.

and attach Urien to them. Unless the enemy has something with 6 attacks, the one hit that could go through will automatically be absorbed by Urien, with a chance of 2 more attacks to get tanked. Anything that does happen to get through will be regenerated in one turn.

Super silly squad set up, makes me wish for some kind of Warseer double-HQ+Retinue arena

[Max1mum]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the notion of any sort of dark eldar on the defencive ...

[Symrivven]

I don't see why we should disregard an option simply because its labelled defensive. We should use any tool available to us. The way DE plays means most of the time we'll be on the offence (but seldom all out, more like strikes at weak points). Having defensive options enriches our arsenal.

For those with an irrational fear of defensive lets call it control. Surely wyches or blood brides with nets are defensive. But they are great at locking down anything that can't voluntarily leave combat, that's control in my book and I like control. Even better if you manage to lock a unit in combat that is traversing a firing lane, blocking los to most things behind that combat in the process.

Btw can someone tell me what a defensive archon is?
Shadowfield doesn't make an archon defensive it just prevent the archon from toppling over whenever someone sneezes in his direction.
Grenade launchers while having a defensive component are mainly used to allow incubi to assault in cover.
Ghostplates as already mentioned are being made redundant by shadowfields and power weapons.
That leaves the clone fields, and these are most of the time worse than shadow fields.
And the electrocorosive whip, that utterly fails as a defensive weapon. (For 15 points more you not just half the enemies strength but effectively reduce it to 0 together with all its other stats)

[GreySeerZ]

CC as an AT option should always be secondary to shooting. The two downsides you posit are both accurate and both extremely deadly to our army.

Which as stated can be mitigated with FnP and Cover.

Again, agreed; however, intervening squad cover saves cannot be counted on. As your opponent's Movement Phase happens before his shooting, he has plenty of time to get out of the way.

I realize this, but by smartly assaulting a vehicle you can ensure that your wrapped around the wreck/damaged vehicle. The only time you might get no cover is if your squad is small, or if you blow up the vehicle and assault it from a poor angle. Again, assaulting with multiple wych units does make it hard to draw direct line of sight to each squad individually, requiring the opponent to chop them down 1 at a time.

If he's spreading his fire, he's doin' it wrong.

I was not writing this under the assumption that all my opponents are tactical geniuses. Countless times I have seen good players in tournaments make mistakes such as these. and it cost them the game. Its important to take note and exploit this mistake if possible, that is all.

I'd put an "AND position" instead of an "or." Drive-by Flamers are a beautiful thing. However, this is not a consideration of vehicle hunting and does not require a CC-based approach to AT to field.

Maybe not a direct benefit of "any" CC AT army, but a benefit of the build I described, using pain token passers.

Much of this isn't working. First, Your Wyches do not have a good chance of destroying an enemy vehicle. Assuming you got your idyllic situation (though not the "vehicle surrounded" situation you envision; that simply will not happen) and charged a non-mobile vehicle first turn, you've only got 9 grenades going at it ('cause of the Haemonculus you pointed out earlier), of which you'll only generate an average 1.5 Pens and an average 6 Glances, with 1.5 misses. Looking for a straight-up Wrecked or Explodes result, your odds hover slightly around 40%. Then, your at-the-minimum 108 point squad dies to return fire, no questions asked. No cover saves at all (unless the opposing vehicle was already sitting in it and asking for the charge).

Most transport vehicles have 1/2 weapons. 3 results including weapon destroyed or imobilized will also destroy the vehicle. I also do not think you can simply state that they will guaranteed die from return fire. I'm not sure what kind of terrain, or size tables you play on, but in our battles there are hardly times when assaulting anything as large as a tank leaves that unit completely int he open. If the unit is destroyed, especially with 4+/4++(FnP), then it is most likely due to concentrated fire of much more than 108 pts of enemy units, which is worth it. I would much rather have 800 pts of enemy units destroy my 108 pts of wyches, than a more equivalent amount of the rest of my army. Either way the points difference should be rather large.

If the wreck or intervening terrain is not providing you cover, it is also possible to disembark the Haemonculus as well and use your raider to screen your assault, providing cover even if downed (unless it explodes). This can also be used to screen assaults, and while they will most likely destroy it, it might take a fair amount of fire with flickerfields, and will also mean that something more important is not being shot at. This will leave the squad immobile, but hopefully you have other mobile units that survive that turn because of the shots that one raid took, units who are not yet engaged and are in greater need of that mobility.

If the vehicle is suppressed but not destroyed, how are you going to be in cover when they disembark and shoot you? Where are you getting a 4+ Invulnerable save from? Further, how will you be in cover if it is destroyed? You can't consolidate after destroying an enemy vehicle in CC.

UGH, your just not reading, the line clearly states Assault/shooting, obviously in combat wyches would get a 4++ invulnerable. Again, I am not sure how you are assaulting vehicles (all bunched at the front?) but by wrapping the unit, you should be able to get cover for more than 50% of your unit from >50% of their deployment zone, if they are driving/moving around the tank to get clear shots, they are most likely putting themselves in a poor position for the next turn.

No, they certainly are not. Black Templars and Necrons ain't exactly rippin' up the tournament circuit.

They aren't ripping it up, but they are there. I don't know how many tournaments you go to, but besides the highest top tier tournaments there are usually several of each. If you draw one in a round, I would feel much more comfortable having haywires on my side, especially for their low points cost.

The beauty of Blasterborn Venoms is that they are two squads not one. They are able to engage two targets separately a turn while only hogging one Force Org slot.

Right...I'm sorry I didn't use the exact same words as you, but I meant the same thing. I'm pretty sure anyone with knowledge of basic 40k understands how units in transports work.

As for incubi, I think both they and wyches have their place on the battlefield. I think that they can both be successful without the other as long as you have supporting firepower to neutralize what they're weak against.

However, my Dark Lance is much better against both of those things than my Wyches.

I kind of agree with this, as dark lances are amazing. But "better" isn't necessarily true. A large majority of a Dark Eldar win depends on removing threats to our mobility, basically anything which can down/destroy our raiders/venoms. A dark lance has a 66% chance to hit. and a 50% chance to glance and up. A haywire grenade has a 50% chance to hit (assuming movement to shoot, or dreadnaught) and a 83% chance to glance and up. Since all you need is a glancing to gurantee no return fire. And considering that your likely to remove that dreadnaught CC weapon before it even strikes. I would say they are pretty much on par. A ravager and a wych squad are pretty comparable in points. Assuming the wych squad is in combat, it has a much better chance of "disabling" a dreadnaught/tank than the ravager would.

Are you seriously suggesting that Wracks, Hellions, Grotesques, and Beastmasters do not pull their weight in CC?

I agree, all of these can be used effectively, short of maybe the hellions, great movement, but points cost and lack of survivability/power weapons kind of hurts them.

I'll grant you Mandrakes and I'll sort-of (very grudgingly) grant you Harlequins and Bloodbrides. The above four, though, no way.

Suxxors

*note: if you're playing a Wych Cult, that's an entirely different story.

Right, which in my opinion is still competitive, and a viable option, I also stated that with a single wych squad tar pitting is the most likely tactic. Multiple wych squads open up your options, are cheaper, and are effective against many units. Wyches are the hammer, incubi are the scalpel, at least in a wych heavy list.

Unlike Tyranids or Orks, we cannot continuously generate that volume of attacks. Orks and Tyranids generate such attacks through the application of one or maybe two squads; to get to that same level, DE must apply three squads! Further, both squads get beneficial rules to support them in smashing the enemy, whereas Wyches need to decimate squads before such things really come into play.

Except our squads can weather return blows much better than those can. Which will result in more attacks in future turns, making it much more comfortable to tie multiple units into that one combat. And in the end resulting in a greater number of attacks overall.

Agreed. I can't fathom making a defensive Archon. They're just not good tanks because of that silly T3. If you want to make the tarpit to end all tarpits, grab a Succubus with Shardnet/Impaler and a squad of Bloodbrides kitted out the same. It won't kill much, but nothing will ever get to attack worth spit.

Yea, no tanking characters for us

I'd humbly point out that you take the Baron for his Hellion troops before his meager bonus to going first.

Alpha-strike is crucial for Dark Eldar. And with hellions paper bag saves. I would say they are on par. Hellions are pretty easy to reduce to nothing. Getting the first turn to reduce your opponents threats by half is nothing to ignore. The majority of tournament lists will have Vect/Sathoynx to grab that Alpha-strike.

[Frankly]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the notion of any sort of dark eldar on the defencive ...

Maybe that can be something we can look at in theoryhammer + game play.

Its nice to think outside of the box. Which the DE codex can allow us to do since its so well written.

I know that DE can build 'resistance' into list. I've placed well in tournaments using footsloggers and spamming FnP on warrior units of 20 covered by wracks when the book first came out. This doesn't mean that its defensive offcourse.

any thoughts on it guys. i.e. wounds allocation on Grots, Talos, beastmen builds?

[Meriwether]

I've found that shardnet/impalers help DE be a killy unit. By reducing the number of dead DE, you increase the penalty on the break test for your enemy.

I'm still playing with the bloodbrides + lelith = 4 shardnet/impalers combo as an elite unit killer -- thus far, not too shabby.

[kokujin_atsuhara]

I've found that shardnet/impalers help DE be a killy unit. By reducing the number of dead DE, you increase the penalty on the break test for your enemy.

I'm still playing with the bloodbrides + lelith = 4 shardnet/impalers combo as an elite unit killer -- thus far, not too shabby.

What about 6BB, 2 shardnet + Lelith + PT given by haemi?
xD

[Stilton]

I've found that shardnet/impalers help DE be a killy unit. By reducing the number of dead DE, you increase the penalty on the break test for your enemy.

Being more killy at I6 does the exact same thing most of the time, in addition to, you know, actually being more killy.

SN/I would be more attractive if the "minimum of 1 attack" wasn't there. I doesn't even make much sense, when you think about it.

[KisaKisaryu]

Im giving mine my Wyches 2 hydra gauntlets per squad. it hasn't let me down this past matches.

[Max1mum]

The SH/I is best used against a Power Fist wielder or Monstrous creature and or elite units.

Against horde units when weight of attacks is the optimal choice the Dark Eldar have plenty of poison shots to make sure that wyches only have to clean up.

At best hydra gauntles will kill a extra marine or two a turn. That's taking away 2 to 4 return attacks.

The SH/I takes away at least 2 attacks and the added bonus, it takes away the attacks that hurt most)

[druchii]

Which as stated can be mitigated with FnP and Cover.

SNIP

Alpha-strike is crucial for Dark Eldar. And with hellions paper bag saves. I would say they are on par. Hellions are pretty easy to reduce to nothing. Getting the first turn to reduce your opponents threats by half is nothing to ignore. The majority of tournament lists will have Vect/Sathoynx to grab that Alpha-strike.

Except most of the time Hellions will be getting a 3+ cover and a 4+ FNP save. I've found Hellions to be one of the most resilient things in the DE army because of this.

I'm going to put this out there and say that there's a vast majority of people who would say that Alpha-strike is very important for a LOT of armies. I think that's why we're starting to see a lot of armies that can play around with this (with the GK and BA abilities of being able to get their units on at the same moment, 'Nids with their stacking reserves bonuses, Guard with their officers of reserves, DE with vect, etc.)-but I think it's hasty to say that "most tournament" armies will be dumping 200+points into a seize the init on a 4+.

d

[Souleater]

Would all those Archons who don't believe in defense please power down their Night Shields, switch off their Flicker Fields and drive in accordance with the local speed limits.

[a1elbow]

GreySeerZ: I think you are taking what Hashmal is saying in the wrong vein. Wyches are just not an optimal AT option. I don't see why I'd sacrifice my Wyches to blow up anything other than a biggie (a Russ, a Raider, a Monolith) or to multi-charge some shooty vehicles and inflict mass shakes.

Against a DT with troops inside, you're just asking for trouble. Exploding vehicles=dead Wyches from explosion and no cover from shooting, at which poitn you are relying on just FnP. Weapon Destroyed or shaken= the vehicle just moving and you being exposed. In most cases, I think you'd be lucky to get more than two sides wrapped with nine Wyches, in which case it isn't that hard to draw LoS to half the squad. More than half will be on one side.

Against Necrons you never bother with the Monolith, you just kill the guys.