That's precisely the crux of it - but I and others specified competitive lists which is what a Tactics section is generally about. A list with Harlequins in is not competitive by definition.Originally Posted by Sigtyr
Sami covered the many reasons why very well...
Kelanen
As stated, they serve completely different battlefield roles. Harlequins are wonderfully resistant to shooting and are capable of not only seriously damaging a unit on the charge, but they can leave combat on the enemy's turn allowing you to set up rapid-fire death with a warrior squad. Wyches are more about pinning something big and nasty in place so it doesn't go stampeding over your army, or mauling tanks to death with haywire grenades.
I don't really see a true overlap unless I squint so hard my eyes hurt.
They are resistant to long range shooting, but short range shots (anything in rapid fire range) will just chew them up alive, 2D6 x2 average is 14", two inches longer than rapid fire ranges. T3 and a 5+ inv save does not have good odds of surviving against rapid firing anything. At 22 points each (with kiss) and 1 wound, that is a big can of hurt that can be brought down onto them from just about anywhere.
My damonettes knew this all too well.
They are safest stuck into combat, but even then because of the current casualty removal rules they can still get mauled somewhat easily into draws. Which is good, but again, your paying almost another third or more in points for them.
Last edited by Jayden63; 10-04-2012 at 16:55.
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I think the idea that Harlies hit units that hard is a little too much. While they are certainly more dangerous against armoured foes, Wyches can be fairly comparable against anything else. And Harlies aren't resilient to shooting, they just don't get shot at. If people forget they aren't going to hit them from very far out, that is on them. But usually after forgetting once they don't again. After that the unit is just ignored till they get closer.
The problem is, anything conventional you can do with Harlies you can pretty well do with Wyches. WWP bunkers is about the most unique thing they bring. But different specialties is not really the point. The problem is the cost. Harlies cost a lot and squeeze out other units in the process. A squad of Wyches do most of the same stuff, bring a DL (if you buy a Raider) and are scoring for less (plus are better against vehicles and more resilient in combat, etc).
I like Harliequinns alright, but they get too expensive. It's like a Void Raven. Yeah, it does more than a Ravager, but at nearly twice the cost. Effective units of Harlies end up at 200 or more points. Effective DT Wyches will come out about 170ish.
Granted this isn't a -perfect- situation all the time, 14" is well within the harlequins' average threat radius.
I find the primary strategic difference is in hit and run. The wyches are locked into close combat until either their opponents are wiped out/routed, or they reach the same end. The harlequins can tie a unit up for two rounds of combat, split during the opponent's turn and proceed to allow a warrior squad to rapid-fire the remainder of the unit to death, with the insurance that the harlequins can charge back in to keep the warriors from a counter attack should they fail to do enough damage to wipe the squad and grab their shiny new pain token. Granted this can be done with hellions as well, but the hellions have no access to an invulnerable save of any kind (placing them into a similar contrast of wyches vs wracks).
Biggest problem with the harlies is first of all their speed.They are freaking slow,just imagine if u roll dow in which turn u will reach ur opponent.But okay i guess u will only see them in wbp lists where the hammy will deploy the portal close to the opponent bla bla bla bla keep dreaming.They are also very expensive for what they do and u really relay on rolling 6s.Furthermore everyone is saying how cool is veil of tears.Lets be honest for a second.NONE long range weapon will ever target them.I think that most of the anti-infantry of the game is in less than 24 inch and basically in the rapid fire range where veil wont save u, most of the times.Ofcourse if someone likes the models and the unit(although this is the DE codex not a clown circuit)he can still use them.
I have used Harlies for wwp escorting and to be honest, they do that wonderfully as they walk 6" forwards and recognizing the opponents shooting range (if you play with nightshields then you already do that in your head anyway). Although you may not get the opponent to try to "see" them to waste their shot but rather I have had many opponents just ignore them altogether.
However, they do have a handicap (which can be overcome by thoughtful list building) and those two handicaps are:
1. they have to start on foot and thus for a 1st turn drop the best you will do is advance the portal 6" from your deployment zone and
2. Dawn of War missions they will not be starting on the table
In my experiences, careful list building can overcome these - question is are you willing to adjust the list accordingly? The fixes are:
1. You make a list where your reserves that are going to use the portal doesn't need an aggressive portal location, anything with a 12" move or a 12" charge (all of the Fast Attack choices) can overcome a conservative 6" advanced portal placement.
2. In case of a DoW scenario, you have a troop choice that can act as a wwp escort instead of the Harlies (which are placed in reserve to use the portal themselves). Naturally I have troop choices on foot and in a raider in which the wwp deployer can join depending on if I have first move or not (if I have first move in the turn then the wwp deployer can join a squad on foot since I have half the board to start from or put the wwp deployer in a raider if I have 2nd move in the turn).
Really haven't an issue with using the Harlies as escorts nor have I had any problem getting the Harlies in close combat afterwards (since usually the opponent is now dealing with units emerging out of the portal the Harlies are usually forgotten). My point cost for a Harlie squad is 198 points and I am sure I can min/max to save points but I prefer them to take an active role after the portal is dropped.
Are they a "must have"? Absolutely not and they are not for everyone so if you do not like them then sure, do not use them.
If you think they are cool or want to give them a try, then they are not very hard to use and they can have synergy in a wwp - problem is, they are usually replacing other elite selections that this forum thinks is more competitive, Trueborn.
Got Tokens?
Good post there Kiwi. And this comes back to an underlying theme when thinking about any tactics... everything is relative.
It's been a long time sine I've contributed to this thread, but here's a list I've been playing at 1500 and have been having good success with:
It's fast, agile, has a lot of shooting and CC potential. No Trueborn at 1500, I only add those in going into the 1850 and 2000 mark.1500
14 kp
HQ:
Archon (Agonizer, Blaster, SF, Drugs) = 135
TROOP:
5x Warriors (Raider NS, Blaster) = 130
10x Warriors (Raider NS/FF, Blaster, SC) = 195
9x Wyches (Raider NS/FF, Hekatrix/Agonizer/BP) = 215
10x Wyches (Raider NS/FF, Hekatrix/Agonizer/BP) = 225
10x Wyches (Raider NS/FF, Hekatrix/Agonizer/BP) = 225
HEAVY:
Ravager (NS/FF) = 125
Ravager (NS/FF) = 125
Ravager (NS/FF) = 125
Do you guys enjoy DE at lower or high point games?
tbh I hate 1500, which is really annoying as my local tourney uses it. I can get very nice lists in at 1k and 2k, but 1.5k always feels like I'm compromising something :/
hence the beauty of 1500
I am getting ready to expand my de army. I currently have
10 warrior in raider
5 warrior in venom
10 wyches in raider
4 blaster born in a venom
4 incubi in venom with
Achron
1 ravager
And Lilith who I will exchanging out for a homunculi
This is about 1250 inlcluding upgrades
Should I go more warriors or another ravager. Or maybe something else
Orks vs.
WIN-DRAW-LOST
GK: 2-0-2...... BA:0-1-0....DA: 0-0-0
IG: 4-0-1.......SM: 2-1-0...SW:0-0-0
DEM: 3-1-1....DE: 1-0-0....ELD:0-0-0
Ork: 2-1-1.....Tau: 1-0-0...NIDS:1-1-1
BT: 1-0-1......Sob:1-0-0....NEC:3-0-1
bearo: I feel that DE excell the smaller you go since we can out manuver (opponent with three rhinos can't nearly cover a table) and that most of our units have more than one function (witches w/ haywire, revers with lances, blasterborn in venoms, etc) so we are able to handle an opponent who goes all mech (6 dreads and death company BA player) or all foot (foot IG). Larger games sometimes seem to get silly when you have three of everything since manuvers become useless and dropping bags of dice become the norm... unless you go to Apoc and then it's all about bags of dice and you know it's not going to be competitive.
lexxx: If you tend to stand off, more ravagers. If you like to get close, blasterborn in a venom. They are similar points but the venom trades range for AI shots, though it gives up an extra kill point. You are also low on troops so warrior in a venom is reasonable.
bearo: One of the most fun games I've had was at the 750pt level vs. CWE. If you keep the point cost of your units down and concentrate on troop slots, you can get a nicely balanced list that really takes advantage of DE's speed, though it precludes more expensive units and characters.
Archon of the Ravenous Void Kabal.
I prefer bigger games. I have only done a couple of small games so far but it is quite annoying when two or all of my 3 wych raiders get shot down turn one. (with cover saves!). And most of the wyches die AND get pinned AND fail their moral check....so stupid. I can let a couple squads die before they get there in a big game but when that is the majority of my army it is annoying.
Hoping you guys would take a look at http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...ch-a-friend%29 and see how it ranks for helping someone learn the game and if it would be fun and challenging for someone starting with Marines.
Morning guys i got a tournament coming in 2 weeks and i would like to know how does the list look to you.
Hq Baron
Hammy + Liq gun
Elites 4 Trueborn + 4 blasters Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons
4 Trueborn + 4 blasters Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons
3 Trueborn + 3 blasters Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons
Troops 5 Warriors + 1 blaster Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons
5 Warriors + blaster Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons
5 Warriors + blaster Raider(dl) with FF
8 Wyches + Hekatrix with pw+ haywires Raider(dl) with FF
Fast Attack 3 Beastmasters + 5 khyms + 5 flocks
Heavy Support Ravager ( dl ) with FF
Ravager ( dl ) with FF
Ravager ( dl ) with FF
1749 pts
Any comments ?Thanks in advance!
Why do you not bring Trueborn at 1500? I find them invaluable at every level. I was playing around with something like this.
Archon
9 Incubi in Raider
3 Blasterborn in Venom
3 Blasterborn in Venom
5 Warriors in Venom
5 Warriors in Venom
5 Warriors in Venom
Razorwing
Ravager
Ravager
Noise Marines
@archonisthebesthqever
You really need to post that list in the Army List section as there are some things that need comment on.
Just for starters this entry is incorrect. 2 flocks per Beastmaster so 5 flocks = 3 beastmasters + the 1 beastmaster for the 5 Khymeras (4 Beastmasters, 5 Khymeras and 5 flocks)
As for the rest of the list, there would be a lot to talk about as each selection other than the Ravagers could use some adjustments.
Got Tokens?
OOops,you are correct.I used to run 4 of them but dropped the 1 for extra pts,ty again for the correction.So, i guess i will drop a flock and add a wych.
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