Dark Eldar (DE) Strategy Guide 5th

[1 ++]

The problem competitively is mobility and objectives.

So true. Maxing out on full troops is a big thing IMO, but if all on foot, will be tough. You need to keep this is mind when depoying portals. Even if stuff comes on T4/T5 - you wanna be able to reach or change a unit to contest deep objectives.

@DeviantApostle; you going to Event Horizon in June?

[toxic_wisdom]

So true. Maxing out on full troops is a big thing IMO, but if all on foot, will be tough. You need to keep this is mind when depoying portals. Even if stuff comes on T4/T5 - you wanna be able to reach or change a unit to contest deep objectives.

As mentioned in my summary, I pay close attention to where objective markers are placed - being mindful of how quickly I can get units over to them either by deep strike, walk / run, or portal edge. The versatility of switching reserve options with the wwp a plus.

[Hokiecow]

... I think because the list is so unlike any other DE lists plays a role why I have had success ...

This is a good point. Breaking the norm and using units opponents are not used to seeing or in combinations can make these 'unconventional' lists stronger.

[Meriwether]

I guess that just doesn't work in my gaming circle. They're a bunch of die-hard cheese-monkeys (in the best way), and they know, know, KNOW everything about every codex.

[Kwi'Kwag]

Kind of on the lines of "unorthodox choices", if you had to take a Talos against a Tyranid list (yes, you "have" to and I know ravagers are better) - how would you outfit it? In particular, do you keep the TL Splinter Cannon or do you change it for something else?

Or do you say screw it, if I can't take a ravager I will use the points elsewhere?

[a1elbow]

This is a good point. Breaking the norm and using units opponents are not used to seeing or in combinations can make these 'unconventional' lists stronger.

It doesn't make the list "stronger" it means "you" brought a list players were unprepared for, mentally or in their own list, which is a deficiency in those players and not a positive quality of the list in-itself.

In all fairness I'm sure the vast majority of 40k tournaments are made up of lists that aren't the highest quality, but when people talk about competitive they are talking about beating good players with good lists and not anything else.

[DeviantApostle]

@DeviantApostle; you going to Event Horizon in June?

I haven't been to a comp in aaaaaages... might have to try again this year.

[Hokiecow]

I guess that just doesn't work in my gaming circle. They're a bunch of die-hard cheese-monkeys (in the best way), and they know, know, KNOW everything about every codex.

The point I'm trying to get at is; there is 'knowing' the units, and the 'knowing' how they work together. Players may have studied the codex to know what a unit is capable of but have little idea how a unit might benefit from another. Leveraging this is what I see as making a list 'stronger'.

But like any list, over time, opponents will find the chinks in the list.

In all fairness I'm sure the vast majority of 40k tournaments are made up of lists that aren't the highest quality, but when people talk about competitive they are talking about beating good players with good lists and not anything else.

I personally wasn't talking about tournaments but I would be curious to know the army list of the top placers of various tournaments and see how they deviate from the conventional lists. I feel like there was an article on BoLS one time covering such a topic.... O well, would be interesting to analyze.

[Sami]

The only good use I've managed to find for the Talos is charging it at Scarabs. S3 vs T7 so they can never wound it (thus it won't lose its save), and it just slowly chops its way through them. It's probably the best Scarab blocking unit in the game in fact. However, if the rumours about 6s always wounding a true in 6th, this is obviously no longer going to work

[Hokiecow]

Humm, I like the idea of using Talos to tie up scarabs. Right now I've been taking care of them using blasts from RJF. It takes advantage of the scarabs vulnerability to blast and takes a few nearby units out too.

[Zothos]

Meri...did you just really call me a "Die hard Cheese-Monkey"?

If so...Thanks, I think

[Sami]

Humm, I like the idea of using Talos to tie up scarabs. Right now I've been taking care of them using blasts from RJF. It takes advantage of the scarabs vulnerability to blast and takes a few nearby units out too.

A recent game against Necrons in a local tourney has actually prompted me to try and squeeze in a RJF into my 1500 list for this very purpose (of course, I'll be waiting until 6th drops before I buy anything). My standard DE list had no real answer for Scarabs. There were 16 players in the tourney and I knew there would only be a single Necron player, so hedged my bets by focusing more on normal AI than Scarabs. Of course, I forgot that the players who won the first round would be paired off against each other and so son, and we're both rather good. What happens? I face him in round 2. Had no answer for the Scarabs and just lost the match due to a few tactical blunders (could've been an easy draw). I came 4th overall, but am still annoyed by that loss :P

Most normal DE stuff is quite terrible against them, but Monoscythe missiles would have utterly ripped them to shreds in a turn (he had a single blob with 2 Spiders, and I would've just dropped all 4 missiles on turn 1 to make damn sure none were left for the Spiders to add to). Shredders are useful, but have no real use against anything else and are only a small blast. S6 AP5 large blast? Yes please.

I still have no actual way of fitting in the RJF into my 1500 list without feeling like I'm nerfing something else - it's extremely tight on points to begin with. 1750 I can do it perfectly, just not 1500. For 1750:

Haemonculus (Liquifier)
Haemonculus (Shattershard)

3x Trueborn (3x Blasters) + Venom (2x SC)
3x Trueborn (3x Blasters) + Venom (2x SC)
3x Trueborn (3x Blasters) + Venom (2x SC)

9x Wyches (Hekatrix, Agoniser, HWG) + Raider (EA, FF)
9x Wyches (Hekatrix, Agoniser, HWG) + Raider (EA, FF)
5x Warriors (Blaster) + Venom (2x SC)
5x Warriors (Blaster) + Venom (2x SC)
5x Warriors (Blaster) + Venom (2x SC)

Ravager (FF)
Ravager (FF)
Razorwing (FF)

= 1749 points

[a1elbow]

I personally wasn't talking about tournaments but I would be curious to know the army list of the top placers of various tournaments and see how they deviate from the conventional lists. I feel like there was an article on BoLS one time covering such a topic.... O well, would be interesting to analyze.

Tournaments or whatever, I'm just talking about your average every day game is probably going to be against a relatively moderate list in terms of "power."

Who wins a tournament isn't necessarily that important. If you examine top three across the board, cut out tournaments with scenarios that try to change the game ("units that move more than 6" are worth 2KP" kind of stuff) I think it is a safe bet that certain trends emerge. Poorer units and lists can still emerge, but those are almost certainly in the hands of better players.

In sports a good team can win without a good coach, and a good coach can make a poorer team do well, but most of the time good teams with good coaches are going to beat either. 40k isn't much different in that way.

[Meriwether]

Meri...did you just really call me a "Die hard Cheese-Monkey"?

If so...Thanks, I think

Indeed I did, and you're welcome!

[toxic_wisdom]

"...It doesn't make the list "stronger" it means "you" brought a list players were unprepared for, mentally or in their own list, which is a deficiency in those players and not a positive quality of the list in-itself..."

Wait, what ?.. how does that thought process float on water ?

So am I supposed to email my list to all of the players in a tournament ahead of time ? Or likewise give it to an opponent for an hour or so before a pickup game so they can review it and tailor against it - making them more prepared ?

Would that then give a more accurate portrayal of how the lists fairs ?

[a1elbow]

My pregames often include alot of what's this ? what's this ? what's this ?

...in a large number of post games the comments lean towards the opponent not being familiar with what all of the units can do / are capable of.

...opponents are not accustomed to the unit selections as a whole...

The Talos Pain Engines can speak for themselves, arriving from either the portal or my own table edge. They can fairly hold their own ground in more cases than not, against infantry and vehicles alike. Keeping them from being left out in the open for long periods of time however tends to be a challenge. Selecting the proper targets is of vital importance.

There are very few Dark Eldar players in the area, and fewer still are the number of those that run portal lists. To be honest, to the best of my knowledge I am the only player in our area that uses a Webway Portal.

Hope that sheds some light !

Wait, what ?.. how does that thought process float on water ?

So am I supposed to email my list to all of the players in a tournament ahead of time ? Or likewise give it to an opponent for an hour or so before a pickup game so they can review it and tailor against it - making them more prepared ?

Would that then give a more accurate portrayal of how the lists fairs ?

No, but if, as you say repeatedly, people are losing because they either don't know what your units do in the first place or because they are unaware of how the army works in general, it means those players need to bone up on their rules. I can't determine anything by how thigns work against people that don't know anything about them.

What I would be interested in hearing is how your list fairs against people who know what your units do and how a WWP army functions and what your tactics are against largely mechanised armies.

[1 ++]

I still have no actual way of fitting in the RJF into my 1500 list without feeling like I'm nerfing something else

Dropping a Trueborn unit and 2 Wyches unlocks a RJF w/ FF

[1 ++]

What I'm getting from Toxic is that he's going against HIS Meta - which is how we win, right?

I mean, if everyone brings Mech, and everyone brings Anti Mech to handle everyone elses Mech, then Toxic rocks along with his "Oh Hai" Webway/Horde/Foot list, and keeps the bodies alive on the table till T7 coz all thats being shot at him are a small handle full of single shot, high strength weapons then sweet......more power (from pain) to him.

I'm working on a simliar tactic - fine-tuning and playtesting my 1850 webway/horde/foot list for a tournie in 4 weeks, and from the games I've played so far, the list has taken the players by surprise. They expect to see a bunch of AV10 skimmers and think its auto-win, but then they read the list at the start of the game and find only two skimmers in there, thats when their Long Fangs spam doesn't look so good anymore....

[Meriwether]

What I'm getting from Toxic is that he's going against HIS Meta - which is how we win, right?

I mean, if everyone brings Mech, and everyone brings Anti Mech to handle everyone elses Mech, then Toxic rocks along with his "Oh Hai" Webway/Horde/Foot list, and keeps the bodies alive on the table till T7 coz all thats being shot at him are a small handle full of single shot, high strength weapons then sweet......more power (from pain) to him.

Back before my LGS closed I would do exactly this. Every once in a while I'd bring an all-foot list with no high-value targets -- what that does is it vastly reduces the usefulness of all those points your opponents spent on anti-tank... And while that's still true today, the problem with it is that codex and edition creep has made it harder and harder to pull off an all-foot list.

[archonisthebesthqever]

So,what you are saying it is that webway portal lists are better from venom spam because they take the opponent by surprise?It is true that all the enemies AT potential it is going to be wasted(although i still think that talos are dead meat)but his list really lacks in AT.Mabey your opponent will have problems handling all those bodies(still ALL tier 1 armies have enough at to handle DE foot hordes)but you too will face difficulties against 10 vehicles.The problem of de AT is the exact reason why everyone chooses to play venom spam.Still i am not saying venom spam it is the only viable DE list but i think that webway is the worst way to use a foot de army.IMO a foot DE should be organised around a big unit of hellions with baron(always pain token trick here),reavers(ap 1 FTW!) and a beast pack,even in this list though i find the 3 ravagers necessery.

ps.Long fangs are a great anti-horde unit too and the plain grey hunter a monster!