Grey Knights

[Steam_Giant]

This would make a fantastic supplement, SPACEHULK: NEMESIS.

I really like Zerodemon's idea that the GK leader is the compentant psyker, and the rest of the team adds their powers to one pool. Its a nice tactical nod to the fluff.

My idea for Demon Forces would be:

Bloodletters
Movement 5
1d6 attack (+2 for a mighty blow)
6+ ward save

Demonettes
Movement 6
1d6 attack
6+ ward save
*Lure of Slaanesh* Once per game a Demonette may use the Lure of Slaanesh, if in visable sight of the Terminator they may take control of the terminator and make D3 AP, including removing overwatch, moving or friendly firing.

Horrors
Movement 5
1d6 attack (-1 for being squishy)
5+ ward save
*Horror spawn* Blips converted to Horrors will always add 1 more to the number indicated on the blip.

Plague Bearers
Movement 4
1d6 attack
4+ ward save

[Morty]

@ OP Have you read the 1st ed rules for the Grey Knight's?
each marine in the squad is a level 2 Psy and the squad leader was a level 4. Under those rules They used the card power ans holacust was one of the powers, Efectivly it was a Flamer shot that remained in play untill a player rolled a 6 at the start of the turn. but casting the power cost the Sargent 1ap but the marines 2ap.

Using a direct convershion of the Psy rules from 1st to 3rd each GK would have 20psy points and the Sargent 40psy points (thats alot) pesonaly i would give the Squad 2d6 Psy points a turn rolled at the start of the turn with the command points that they can use to manafest powers and adjust combat rolls rather than worry about a Psy point total.

Also the only 'offishal' mishion they where ever given was to hunt down and kill a patrearch (psyic broodlord)

[wilsongrahams]

Yeah that's the problem - they become very powerful with a large amount of psi points.

Personally I think only being able to use CP as psi points would be good - they don't have unlimited power all the time and rely on the warp, plus it means they play different because they're not using cp in the normal way when using powers.

It tones them down a little, makes book-keeping easier and they have to sacrifice speed to do powers as they stop and chant etc.

[f2k]

As I recall (not having my 1. edition rules with me right now) the Grey Knights were so powerful that they had no points value in the game and were supposedly only meant for home-made campaigns.

The real problem for me has always been the question of what they're doing on a hulk in the first place? These guys are, pound for pound, the most valuable terminators in the Empire. Having them killing Genestealers seems like a bit of a waste. Wouldn't Deathwatch terminators be a better choice?

Still, the new models are so gorgeous that I'm seriouslytempted to paint up a squad for my own Space Hulk...

[zerodemon]

They really aren't suitable to play the campaign book missions at all. I'm currently writing a campaign where they're cleansing a large tech-priest manufactorum of Khornate daemons.

[SentinelV]

How about this as a suggestion. A Grey Knight squad starts with a total of 20 psi points, any unused command points at the end of a Genestealer turn can be turned into psychic points, though this may not take the total above 20. The sergeant can use powers, all Grey Knights can use points in close combat in the same way as a Librarian. You can easily track this with the same control panel as is currently used, there is a slow trickle of psi point replacement, and it should be self balancing as too many psi points accumulated will slow down the Grey Knights movement etc.

[zerodemon]

Once again, since combat is rare is Space Hulk, doubly so when using psychic powers, thorough playtesting ruled out such a simple method of regaining psi-points. Great idea though. The system I'm currently using (5 psi points to start, automatic increases of between 0 and 2 points per turn depending on how many terminators you have alive, representing the pool of psi points the terminators can draw from as a group) is working great and gives the bad guys a hell of a chance (especially since they're all Bloodletters, who come with parry as a basic skill to balance out the fact that GK's would be better in combat than Genestealers.)

Under this system, psychic powers don't dominate the game as the Grey Knight player is forced to decide between building up a decent stock of points or taking a risk in using his powers.

Check out my rules at http://spacehulkmissions.blogspot.co...ing-rules.html

[Morty]

Well with the new book coming out Grey knight Psykers is a mute point. Since the basic premise of the squads psyonics has changed. Now they act as a coruse excep for the sargent whos acts as both conducter and psy in his own right, making psy rules for them alot easre to live with. The rules i am play testing at moment bracks the squad down into it's 2 compnant parts the Sarg, and his squad. All the models are psy but only the sargent has his own psy pool to power his abilities, the rest of the squad shaire a single pool of psy point's and thus must carfully hord there powers for when they are most needed, so the only realy active psyker is the sargent, But even then this is no more a problem for the geastealer player then the normal marine one is. I will say that cusulties do tend play havoc with the squad as with only 5 men you reall knowtise the lack of coverage.

Also the Psy cannon Has Been set to just one profile making it easer to convert (it's is and still is an Assult heavy bolter)

Also I loved Grouls Idea's on the Haulacust power ANd think it Works perfect, unfortunatly Gw have it as an enermation from the GK's now and not a blast weapon. so i think it would work, Captian casts at 4 psy point s and then +X psy from X Coruse, and all models within 6 of GK, get hit needing 6-X to kill, thus when the squads at full strenght it's exspencive but Strong. Then as the squad wekens it's Cheaper, but weaker.

[wilsongrahams]

I guess I still like the idea of having a more simpler option for using Grey Knights. They would still be more powerful than regular guys but not massively so.

You'd have:
Falchions giving +1 Attack in close combat.
Halberd giving +1 score in close combat.
Sword giving Parry in close combat.
Warding Stave giving Block in Close Combat.

All close assault weapons can use psi points.

Psilencer using Assault Cannon rules.
Incinerator using Heavy Flamer rules.
Psicannon using Reaper Autocannon rules (2D6, 4+, Jam, Overwatch, 10 ammo, Reload).

For the psychic powers, I'd probably stick with the basic 3rd ed set of three for the most part. Psychic Storm is powerful enough if psi points aren't limited. Possibly allow other powers with librarians and captains though these models tend to be too powerful for most games. I'd then not keep a pool of psi points at all, so no recharging etc, but just allow CP to be used as cp or psi points each turn. A Justicar would still count as a Sergeant for +1 and reselecting the cp counting for his extra psychic ability too. One psi power per turn for the whole squad would still be the maximum so no blocking from all of them!

As a fast fix, this allows your fancy models to be used in most regular games. All you have to realise is that with the extra attacks and bonuses in cc, they will survive longer than regular guys so you should reduce the numbers a little.

I've found this quite satisfactory so far - not perfect mind - but good enough and easy enough to not have to keep checking pages of rules and powers or even learning anything new.

[Morty]

Well, I personaly pref using a psy poll for Attacking Psykers as When me and my freands play we use rules for hybrids and the Magus, since thay are also using psyonic powers at the marine player, they tend to burn points like a loon nulifying them.

[svr]

Any updates on daemons? There was some daemons discussion on Sin of Damnation forum but it seems that forum is gone.

I like zerodemon's new GK rules except halberd with its free attack is overpowered so make it 1D6+1 instead.

Here is something I have been theorizing and testing a bit.

Bloodletter, 3D6, 5 AP, Warp Save 6+, Parry
Daemonette, 3D6, 6 AP, Warp Save 6+
Plaguebearer, 2D6, 4 AP, Warp Save 5+

Skulltaker and The Masque in some form to combat grey knights?

Daemonettes have that Siren thing where they make their opponent dance and stuff. This would be extremely good if you just pull a terminator standing at crosscroads on overwatch forward 1 square and then kill him from side because he won't get any bonuses. Unless you use the really old rules and allow bonuses to sides. Still a bad idea.

Horrors have a ranged attack but ranged vs ranged in Space Hulk doesn't work well (I have tested this with other units, it's horrid) so they are out or is there any reason why they wouldn't use their ranged attack?
If they only used melee they could be:
Horror, 1D6, 5 AP, Warp Save 5+, *Horror spawn* Blips converted to only Horrors will always add 1 more to the number indicated on the blip.

Zerodemon talked about using flesh hounds but those are 25x50mm bases I think so they dont fit in hulk. Same for jugger. Or they occupy 2 squares and have clumsy movement like in Doom boardgame.

Blips
In the Daemons reinforcement phase, blips may be placed anywhere on the map in empty sections. If blip lands within LOS of an enemy they instantly convert and overwatch shots will be taken at converted daemons, if they land out of LOS then they can stay as blips or convert.

Blips/daemons can't move or make a combat attack the turn they come into play. Blips have 6 AP.

Warp Save
Daemons are made of the gooey stuff from the Warp, and thus are hard to kill, each time a daemon suffers a lethal hit they can make a Warp Save, if they pass their save they survive. The daemon loses one AP for each save they pass.

[Steam_Giant]

Here is something I have been theorizing and testing a bit.

You could at least give me a little credit!

Whats your thinking behind giving Bloodletters and Daemonettes 3D6 atk dice? Genestealers get three dice because they have more arms, therefore more chances to attack ? why would a bloodletter AND a daemonette attack in exactly the same way?

I'm quite like your idea on blip deployment, will have to try that out and see how it works. It does sound a little overpowered on paper.

How have your test games gone so far? which missions have you tried?

[svr]

If the daemons are 1D6 they are no threat to anyone. If they are 3D6 you already know how it will turn out, not much balancing on that part. Besides aren't daemonettes comparable in power with stealers?

Blip deployment definately is interesting. When things get crazy, they will be warping right behind the termies. Maybe the daemon players starting blips should be changed so that he can't place them before game starts and will place them when his turn comes because if he places them before game starts he can put them very near termies starting location so termies can't rush out like usual because the daemons are right behind next corner. Difference here is if he places them before game starts he can move on 1st turn, if he places them on his turn he can't move them on 1st turn. Although it would make starting the game very different and that is the point with different armies.

I tested Suicide Mission, 1st mission of 3rd ed book. Normal terminators 1st try failed badly, 2nd try flamer almost made did it but daemons just blocked it off. Those games were done with plaguebearer having 4+ save and it was way too much, they just wouldn't die.

Normal termies have a very hard time with daemons because they are better than stealers in every way. You can play it that way if you are a masochist but zerodemon's grey knights will make it more even match.

[Daemonslave]

We should make rules for all the daemon types,
ie
Flesh Hounds who are immune to psychic attack
Beasts of Nurgle who leave slime trails that slow movement
Horrors that have their own psychic powers

and things like that.

Throw in a Greater Daemon (or two ) for good measure (only special missions where you can have dreadnoughts) and it should be fun!

[Steam_Giant]

If the daemons are 1D6 they are no threat to anyone. If they are 3D6 you already know how it will turn out, not much balancing on that part. Besides aren't daemonettes comparable in power with stealers?

That's why I gave bloodletters the +2. This indicates less chances to attack but more power in the strike *Fluffy* They are Full-on combat pieces.

Daemonettes are not a fighting piece (IMO), they are used to orchestrate a perfect *lure of Slaanesh* game winning move. It is for the marine forces to seek and destroy these troublesome pieces.

Plague bearers play as blockers, your right a +4 save is a little to much, perhaps they should be movement 3, or a minus to their atk?

These differences give the individual pieces character, rather than three different flavours of uber-genestealer.

We should make rules for all the daemon types

When there are too many enemies, game balance goes out the window.

Throw in a Greater Daemon (or two ) for good measure (only special missions where you can have dreadnoughts) and it should be fun!

Drednoughts and greater daemons? Im not sure the rules can handle that? Maybe a Necromunda hybrid would better suit your ideas?

[svr]

I think dslave was being sarcastic.

Warp save uses 1 AP when they are lethally hit so if they have 3AP and get hit they can't move at all and become roadblocks.

1+2 combat is a bit too strong vs normal termies because they can't even hope to get a draw 33% of the time. They could work against GKs but do you want to make daemons army that only GKs fight or more a universal thing?

[Daemonslave]

I was regarding the Greater Daemons, but if people wanted to play on a hulk infested with Khorne daemons why limit them to just Bloodletters. I think having Flesh Hounds as being immune to pychic attacks and psi - weapons would make a game more tactically challenging. Have a Juggernaut (or herald such as Skulltaker) as an equivalent to the Broodlord (one super hard guy) and Robert is your fathers brother.

Or a similar notion for the other Daemon Powers.

[Steam_Giant]

They could work against GKs but do you want to make daemons army that only GKs fight ?

Yes.

Can you explain the 1ap thing again? what happens if its the Terminator attacking the daemon?

[svr]

Yes.

Can you explain the 1ap thing again? what happens if its the Terminator attacking the daemon?

Nothing. Same as genestealers.

[Steam_Giant]

so can they use a ward save?