Winston & Strawn LLP to Represent Chapterhouse Studios LLC in Games Workshop vs CHS

[FabricatorGeneralMike]

whoa, settle down there before you get too excited. my point still stands and the scenario that I put forth is valid. Lazy parents can and do exist, and the idea that someone doesn't know their own rump from breakfast might possibly confuse Chapterhouse's products with Gdub's.

here's another hypothetical, very similar to the first scenario: someone who was in the know (one of us, a responsible member of the the wargaming community) called Gdub customer service feigning ignorance, and went through with the above scenario. to me, this is actually more likely.

I agree with you %100. Gdubz customer service was(is still?) second to none. I have never had a problem with that aspect of them.

That post wasn't directed at you personally Self Biased, it was directed at stupid people who try to belame someone else for there mistakes. That's the way the world seems right now, it's never my fault, its always someone elses or someone else made me do it. That really grinds my gears .

After re-reading your last post, that sounds like the most plausable explination. Someone trying to take advantage of GW's return policy. That makes more sence then someone having to work at being ignorant and stupid. Altho, im shure they are out there, ignorant and stupid with more money then brains...

[nvillacci]

I am not sure on the legality of the no pictures on your website. I think that GW can control that since they have control over the supply of the products.

[SeaSwift]

Yes they can provided that its in your contract. For example, ANYTHING you submit to GW in the way of letters, fanfics, rules ideas etc (and it clearly states this in the terms and conditions before anyone starts), by sending it, you agree to it becomming the property of GW.

One of my uni lecturers was instrumental in the development of a way to cure concrete on site (Civil Engineering) and his idea is now recognised and widly used in industry. Do people say, oh yes that is his method and is he rich, no, not at all. His company is, because the work was done in company time and while he was under a contract that stated that all work done for the company, while with the company, belonged to the company.

So to say, GW's IP is not thiers because some of the original contributors have left doesn't work

I don't mean legally, I mean philosophically. I'm not trying to fight this in court - I was responding to someone's belief that GW had more right to the ideas of WHFB and WH40K than anyone else, as 2 of the creators still worked there. Sorry, this seems to have sparked a bit of an argument about the legallity of it. That wasn't intended

EDIT: Also, selfbiased, your first hypothetical would sure lead to a sticky situation for all parties, but I don't see in what way this makes CHS responsible, both morally and legally. Surely this case of circumstances, while not great, is relatively insignificant in comparison to the trouble GW have already got themselves into, and the possible harm CHS might cause in other ways - it just doesn't seem important to me as a reason why CHS is 'bad'.

[self biased]

I don't mean legally, I mean philosophically. I'm not trying to fight this in court - I was responding to someone's belief that GW had more right to the ideas of WHFB and WH40K than anyone else, as 2 of the creators still worked there. Sorry, this seems to have sparked a bit of an argument about the legallity of it. That wasn't intended

EDIT: Also, selfbiased, your first hypothetical would sure lead to a sticky situation for all parties, but I don't see in what way this makes CHS responsible, both morally and legally. Surely this case of circumstances, while not great, is relatively insignificant in comparison to the trouble GW have already got themselves into, and the possible harm CHS might cause in other ways - it just doesn't seem important to me as a reason why CHS is 'bad'.

my understanding is that a portion of the suit lies in how CHS presented its kits, and that there could reasonably be some confusion by a layperson as to who they were ordering from.

no offense, nick, i get what you're trying to do, i really do (and i think it's really dumb); though I sincerely wonder what you will actually gain when there are so many other places operating within well established parameters and flourishing.

[SotF]

I am not sure on the legality of the no pictures on your website. I think that GW can control that since they have control over the supply of the products.

That would be one that I'd be interested to actually see in court.

[self biased]

I am not sure on the legality of the no pictures on your website. I think that GW can control that since they have control over the supply of the products.

nice edit.

[Inquisitor Engel]

my understanding is that a portion of the suit lies in how CHS presented its kits, and that there could reasonably be some confusion by a layperson as to who they were ordering from.

I think this is a ridiculous notion. Even my mother can tell it's not GW-proper.

Speaking of CHS - My Howling Griffon, Iron Snakes and Exorcist pads came earlier this week and WOW. The Howling Griffon one was stand-out fantastic - If I weren't almost done with my Fists, I'd do a Griffon army just for these pads! Anyone saying CHS has low quality needs to order this stuff and check it out.

The Iron Snakes and Exorcist pads were also outstanding quality, stood up to shipping better than GW ones (The Exorcist rim was perfectly straight, GW ones tend to get bent and warped even in blisters). I wish the Iron Snakes one had a more normal rim, but WOW!

I was rooting before, but man... I would really, really hate GW fans to lose a great resource like this.

[Trasvi]

Legally speaking, CHS has covered their bases about customer confusion. Even before the new changes to the site, it was very clearly stated that 'We are not Games Workshop and have no affiliation with them' (or something to that effect). That disclaimer is enough. Its like medicinal products giving a list of possible (but unlikely) side effects, banks saying 'get financial advice to make sure this product is the correct choice for you', etc.

Chapterhouse is such a niche product that no-one in their right mind could confuse it for official GW stuff. Their site is difficult to find, unless you know what you're looking for (as in, it won't come up if you search 'Space marines' or 'Salamanders'), everyone who owns some CHS products knows they're not official.

[RandomSelect]

I cant see what the fuss is about,
Ok a shoulder pad from CHS, i cant do anything with just a shoulder pad can i?
i still have to buy the stock GW kit in the first place so GW dont lose out.
And the Tervigon? i still need to buy the GW codex and 40k rulebook to use it and along with a lot of other tyranid models. and if GW doesnt want people buying the CHS tervigon then GW should release a Tervigon themselves and make sure its a better sculpt.

these things are extras, they are not replacement models? so whats the problem with it?

[Max Jet]

Honestly? I think they wanted to set an example and didn't expect any resistance. An easy example that they have the absolute and last word about their Universe and nobody is allowed to venture into that area. (I wonder what Michael Moorcock has to say on this debate)

I have yet to find out however why anyone except Shareholders and GW Employees would want Chapterhouse Studios to close. This is something beyond my understanding.

[iamfanboy]

Honestly? I think they wanted to set an example and didn't expect any resistance. An easy example that they have the absolute and last word about their Universe and nobody is allowed to venture into that area. (I wonder what Michael Moorcock has to say on this debate)

I have yet to find out however why anyone except Shareholders and GW Employees would want Chapterhouse Studios to close. This is something beyond my understanding.

I think the argument on the part of non-GW employees/shareholders goes something like, "If GW loses, then that opens up the door so every Tom, Dick, and Harry (with a bit of lead and slight skill to sculpt and equipment to cast) to make their own copies of dozens of GW miniatures and CHAOS, RAMPANT UNFETTERED INSANITY WILL ENSUE!!!"

You might be able to tell, from my tone, that I believe their fears to be unfounded.

Why?

Well, let me go back to my favorite game of late, Battletech, again. There ARE non-legit casters; at least 3-4 people who possess molds of varying (but usually sub-par) quality of miniatures once trademarked by FASA and who sell them on the sly, without official endorsement.

The only reason (ONLY reason) they thrive is because they cast miniatures of BattleMechs that (due to legal reasons involving Harmony Gold) Iron Wind Metals (the official Battletech miniature manufacturer) cannot cast themselves: the ones based off the old Macross designs. In fact, I have it on good authority that one of the fan-casters actually possesses the ORIGINAL molds from Ral Partha Miniatures that he grabbed when they had to toss them due to the legal concerns, and the reason the quality has sunk is because... well, molds degrade over time, and these are over two decades old.

The only reason he hasn't been sued is because he exists in a gray area - IWM and Catalyst Games can't officially endorse him because of the lawsuit, but they can pretend he doesn't exist to let more people get their hands on the old, old minis.


I usually don't disagree with Reinholt, but the technical ability is beyond anything but a small group of seriously dedicated people would have. Directly copying someone else's sculpt (NOT what CHS is doing, even if they use a base shoulderpad to start with, they are modifying and creating enough that it can easily count as their own in the eyes of copyright and trademark law), like copying a Space Marine sprue and trying to sell it, WOULD be slammed down on quite hard, and rightfully so.

Making a model of something that only exists as words on paper? Making bits with which to modify existing models? Vaguely actionable at best, and no doubt GW was hoping that CHS would back down without a fight on this.

[whitemagikmarker]

thats really interesting fanboy, i never knew that about battletech. i think ill have to agree with the people on this thread who believe gw was just hoping for the scare tactic to work and now it didnt. i wish chapterhouse good luck

[selfconstrukt]

Depending on how this plays out I'd be more concerned (either GW or CHS) of more "add-on bits" companies out there started up.

CHS right now provides the most, next to GW, but if CHS wins then the door is opened for pretty much anyone else to start making GW compatible shoulder pads, vehicle armor plates, etc.

While I wish CHS luck and hope they win, this might come back to haunt them in terms of even more competition (no matter how good you are, there's always someone out there who can do better).

[TheMav80]

Depending on how this plays out I'd be more concerned (either GW or CHS) of more "add-on bits" companies out there started up.

CHS right now provides the most, next to GW, but if CHS wins then the door is opened for pretty much anyone else to start making GW compatible shoulder pads, vehicle armor plates, etc.

While I wish CHS luck and hope they win, this might come back to haunt them in terms of even more competition (no matter how good you are, there's always someone out there who can do better).

More competition can only be good for us, the consumer.

[ehlijen]

More competition can only be good for us, the consumer.

What kind of competition though? The 40k universe belongs to GW, just as star wars belongs to Lucas. They should not have to face competition for their own IP. Make up new scifi universes and actually add your own creativity to the market I say.

Honestly, I don't think chapter house should win this case. I don't want them to lose as such, but they did jump on someone else's back without asking for permission. No wonder GW want to throw CHS off now.

[Hellebore]

Well if what has been said about 'aftermarket parts' and IP by other posters is true, not only would CHS win, they are protected by law to do exactly what they've been doing.

You could equally say 'The Ford Falcon belongs to Ford. They should not have to face competition for their own IP' and yet that's exactly what they do face - people legally making alternate components for Ford vehicles and advertising them as such - 'Body kit/carburetter/spoiler for Ford model X'.

'Shoulder pads for the Howling Griffons for GW model X.'

It is legal to do these things, so it's not a case of CHS shouldn't win, it's a case of the law says so. The problem then is with the law, not with people doing things within its bounds.

Hellebore

[IJW]

One of the issues is not whether CHS are allowed to make aftermarket parts (that's fully legal) but whether they crossed the line from marketing them as (paraphrased, obviously) 'Shoulder pads for GW Space Marines' to 'Space Marine Shoulder pads'.

[Max Jet]

Still I think this shouldn't be our concern.
We are hobbyists and costumers, we should be happy about greater variety of manufacturers and competition between them. As a hobbyist I cannot see why I should care about attitudes or the way someone advertises.

[PsyberWolf]

What kind of competition though? The 40k universe belongs to GW, just as star wars belongs to Lucas. They should not have to face competition for their own IP. Make up new scifi universes and actually add your own creativity to the market I say.

Honestly, I don't think chapter house should win this case. I don't want them to lose as such, but they did jump on someone else's back without asking for permission. No wonder GW want to throw CHS off now.

The problem is, with many "anti-CHS" posters on this board, is that their definition of "IP" is much broader than what the legal definition is. Some people seem to think that even ideas are part if their IP.

There are only 3 categories of intellectual property that GW owns.

1) Trademarks - the logos and terms used in selling their products. Note that not everything is trademarked for example most Space Marine chapter names can't be trademarked since they don't sell anything under their names.

2) Copyrights on minis and associated sub-components. So you can't recast and sell them.

3) Copyrights on written works - I can't scan or copy them and sell them to others.

That is it - that is their property rights. They don't own any of the ideas. So for instance the idea of a futuristic knight with shoulder pads or an elf flying on a jet powered bike does not belong to GW. Anyone is free to make their own version - even one that may appear similar to a GW one - as long as you didn't recast parts from GW.

The reason why is that it balances the ability of people to make money off of their unique efforts while allowing a competitive environment (and therefore preventing monopolies) which meets the customer's needs.

[prometheus]

Has anyone checked the legal pages on Games Workshop? I can't see how ANYONE has THAT much control over all of the items/ideas/etc. mentioned on those pages. I am not a law student, I just use common sense, so feel free to correct me if i'm wrong. But read those pages first. <html>http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/co...sp?aId=3900002 <html>