Winston & Strawn LLP to Represent Chapterhouse Studios LLC in Games Workshop vs CHS

[_L_]

Sometimes it's not about having the law on your side.

What is your ultimate objective here?

To be able to continue to profit from another companies IP? To make money off the back of other peoples ideas and hard work? To break apart the protection of GW's IP... to allow any party to create their own "ideas" and "variations" on existing products?

Where will it... where will you stop?

Do you wish to canabalise GW sales and customers for your own profit using THEIR IP rather than thinking for yourself and creating something new, like other companies have done?

[x-esiv-4c]

"to allow any party to create their own "ideas" and "variations" on existing products?"

Wait...Isn't this just making conversions?

[burning templar]

What happened with all the donations?

[Pacorko]

"to allow any party to create their own "ideas" and "variations" on existing products?"

Wait...Isn't this just making conversions?

I suppose he doesn't mean those per sé, but rather the pieces someone else makes for people to use in their convertions.

Again, the whole purist thing is a bit much, but some people seem inclined to defend GW at any cost.

[EmperorNorton]

Sometimes it's not about having the law on your side.

What is your ultimate objective here?

To be able to continue to profit from another companies IP? To make money off the back of other peoples ideas and hard work? To break apart the protection of GW's IP... to allow any party to create their own "ideas" and "variations" on existing products?

Where will it... where will you stop?

Do you wish to canabalise GW sales and customers for your own profit using THEIR IP rather than thinking for yourself and creating something new, like other companies have done?

GW does not have the moral high ground, they've been making money off the back of other peoples ideas from the get go.

[rodmillard]

I think a distinction has to be made between GW-fans and Wargaming-fans.

Quite - from what I remember of the old thread, the "wargaming fans" tended to be the ones who would like to see CHS win, since we can see the implications for the wider hobby.

I have never felt the urge to buy anything from CHS, but I can see the need for them (and companies like them) in the hobby as a whole. If GW wins this case, then not only will CHS be forced to close but MANY aspiring sculptors will be put off from starting in the business, which will be a tragedy - not to mention the psychological ammunition they will have to go after other companies ("CHS chose to fight this in court, and look what happened to them - I believe one of them is now flipping burgers in MacDonalds").

On the other hand, if GW loses then it will mean three things:

* that they will have to start doing what they should have been doing anyway, and pay to register "intend to use" trademarks for things like the Tervigon
* that the "Fortress wall" of their IP is not as secure as they like to think it is so anyone can put a 1000 year old heraldic device on a shoulder pad if they want to
* that they will have to start competing with the bits manufacturers on at least two of range, price and/or quality instead of bludgeoning them with "cease & desist" letters until they go away

All of which will be bad for GW's financial reports (which are already suffering as more and more people flee to discounted retailers), but good for wargaming in general as well as the "Games Workshop hobby"

[enyoss]

What happened with all the donations?

Good question. I was wondering how that would pan out when I saw the request, as you have to be very careful about soliciting donations for a cause if the money then goes on something else.

[Chaos and Evil]

What is your ultimate objective here?

To be able to continue to profit from another companies IP?

Every time I look at a Black Templar Marine's helmet and squint, I see Darth Vader looking back at me.

[Tavendale]

If GW truly has the law on their side, well, I doubt we can do anything about it and there is nothing to worry about for all the "GW fans".

With respect, whether or not the law is on your side, you are making money off GW's back. I'm not doubting you put in a lot of work or that your products are of a decent quality (I'm a satisfied customer myself and do intend to use your store again) but I really feel that you're doing yourself no favours in repeatedly posting about the proceedings.

I don't say this in the malicious way that some have, but out of genuine concern that you are making inappropriate comments (though less so in this thread than previous ones) and alienating potential customers with what can come across as an arrogant attitude to this whole affair.

Again, I've used your products, I'm happy with them and if you were to put out more Thousand Sons or Mechanicus parts I'd be first in for preorders. Don't shoot youself in the foot.

[Inquisitor Engel]

If GW truly has the law on their side, well, I doubt we can do anything about it and there is nothing to worry about for all the "GW fans".

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

You're in the same position as companies that make mod-kits for cars. Since you're producing parts that GW does not, intended for use with their products, you're in the same boat. You're not stealing anything from GW in the same way that mod-makers are not stealing anything from car manufacturers.

This dynamic has been held up before in court, though I don't know case numbers.

[rodmillard]

Sometimes it's not about having the law on your side.

Which is just as well for you, because GW don't. I'm not sure CHS do either, but GW's case consists of "lets throw mud at the wall and see what sticks." They will be very lucky to get out of this one without a Contempt charge.

What is your ultimate objective here?

To be able to continue to profit from another companies IP? To make money off the back of other peoples ideas and hard work?

I think GW's lawyers will be advising them against using that particular argument - if the judge rules that GW's work is derivitive then their whole "fortress" of IP goes up in smoke.

To break apart the protection of GW's IP... to allow any party to create their own "ideas" and "variations" on existing products?

Pardon me? Isn't that what a creative hobby is supposed to be about?!

Do you wish to canabalise GW sales and customers for your own profit using THEIR IP rather than thinking for yourself and creating something new, like other companies have done?

Can open. Worms everywhere. As Emperor Norton says, GW do not have the moral high ground here.

As was pointed out in the old thread, GW opted for a jury trial and CHS's lawyers will be able to exclude anyone involved in "The Hobby" as having a conflict of interests. So none of the jury members will give a flying rat's bottom about space marines or tyranids, but it's a fair bet they will all at some point have needed to replace parts on their car and been disgusted by the prices manufacturers charge compared to 3rd party parts ...

[Inquisitor Engel]

As was pointed out in the old thread, GW opted for a jury trial and CHS's lawyers will be able to exclude anyone involved in "The Hobby" as having a conflict of interests. So none of the jury members will give a flying rat's bottom about space marines or tyranids, but it's a fair bet they will all at some point have needed to replace parts on their car and been disgusted by the prices manufacturers charge compared to 3rd party parts ...

The automotive argument is PRIME here. It's something everyone can relate to. Take it back even further - what if the part you need is not made by the car manufacturer and you HAVE to turn to a 3rd party?

[Max Jet]

I am with rodmillard on every aspect of his posts.

Will it be o.k. to post the decision of the court in this thread? Or isn't this a public matter? I would gladly like to know what has been decided and why.

[Wolf Lord Balrog]

Wasn't the precedent-setting case in this type of situation Hush-A-Phone v United States? AT&T had an even stronger claim than GW, but the court still smacked them down. I'm not a lawyer, just going by what I remember from my 2-3 business law classes, so I could be wrong.

[Pacorko]

All of which will be bad for GW's financial reports (which are already suffering as more and more people flee to discounted retailers), but good for wargaming in general as well as the "Games Workshop hobby"

Rod, there is a little thing here that's not completely accurate. The prices GW commands from its retailers pretty much cover all the costs and generate profits. The no longer direct buying, has only reduced the amount of money GW is capable of getting from its customers. But I dare say it not that much of a hit... yet.

The move to one-man stores was decided even before the latest stataments as a means to "reduce costs, thus increase profits"... its' been like this for far too long. GW HQ's can't just get it in their heads they need to increase their sales because what is really worrying is that both direct sales and sales to distributors/retailers have been plummeting over the past few years.

Of course, their price increases "sort of" cover for the "loss" of clients as they spread the "same amount" of revenue over less (and less) units sold... but it all is reaching a crisis point and it will certainly blow in someone's bum.

Meanwhile the rest of the industry, chugs along and seems as enthusiastic and creative as ever, a few problems not withstanding.

[nvillacci]

To answer the Donations question.

I have emailed all the donators and given them updates (in case they dont read the news somewhere else).

Unfortunately, according to the agreement with Winston & Strawn, we are largely responsible for any court cost, this could be a few hundred $ or a couple of thousand (or more).

We also had an attorney representing us before we found "pro-bono" help, those cost are in the thousands (and that was just for 2-3 weeks work).

So the donations will be used for that cost. Hope that answers questions.

[Art Is Resistance]

I'm in two minds about this.

On one hand, I can see GW dilemma - they work hard to create an IP (albeit with homages to others), and to design and sell miniatures. Their lifeblood is the IP, and so they defend it vigourously.

On the other hand, CHS have every right to make parts that fit ANY 28mm figure, be it GW, Privateer, whoever and good luck to them! What I have an issue with is that if they use a recognised GW IP trademark (ie - Tervigon) then they should either license that or not call their item a Tervigon - surely?

Those in the hobby would know what it was without the name - take the names away and there's no case?

I hope that this is sorted amicably for both parties - because to be honest I can't see a winner on either side.

[Earl_UK]

to voice my input.

Nothing GW does is in the sense of the word "Original" it is allagorical to its deepest core and takes all its ideas from hostorical events, and other peoples ideas.

They have no Original IP imo.

Just a rule set and some model soldiers to play with.

[rodmillard]

On the other hand, CHS have every right to make parts that fit ANY 28mm figure, be it GW, Privateer, whoever and good luck to them! What I have an issue with is that if they use a recognised GW IP trademark (ie - Tervigon) then they should either license that or not call their item a Tervigon - surely?

The problem is that GW have not released a Tervigon model, nor have they bothered to register the term "Tervigon" as a trademark with "intent to use." They may be able to make a case about design rights based on the artwork they do actually own, but they have no rights over the name at all - in fact, whichever company released a Tervigon model first would own the trademark.

Oops.

[codeslingerMalthius]

It's an IP that I love and would hate to see shredded by a hundred sub-par companies, that would no-doubt jump on-board if CHS wins.

Thats right. We only want to see it shredded by Games Workshop.
'the Mechanicum was "inspired" by a necron god' indeed.