Sigmar = one of the missing primarchs

[Anarch_Sek]

It is my belief that Sigmar is ineed one of the lost primarch from 40k thus making the warhammer 40k universe linked to warhammer fantasy.

The following are facts that reinforce my theory:


General- Chaos exists both in Fantasy and 40k


General- There was 20 primarchs created. 18 were found. 2 were lost.


40k-The chaos Gods learned of the Emperors creations (primarchs) and tried to convert them. Chaos was unable to convert them at that time and so spread them throughout the corners of the galaxy through out space and time.

40k-Slaanesh was born during the end of the age of strife (started in the mid to late 26th millenia) which was around the 30th to 31st millenia. With the coming of slaanesh the eye of terror was born. The warp storms lasted about 3000-4000 years. Right after the emperor establishes his dominion over earth and makes the primarchs.


40k- Every primarch was "born" under a comet.


40k-Warp Storms ravaged the galaxy during the age of strife.

Fantasy-With the polar gateways collapsing in the warhammer world chaos makes its first appearance. This is known as the first incursions of chaos. Sigmar is born 4500 years later.


Theory- Slaanesh was the cause of the disturbance of the polar gateways. If so then obviously it would fit with the birth of sigmar and the births of the primarchs.


Life of Sigmar- Sigmar is said to be BORN under a comet. The verb BORN was used for other primarchs. It would be bad in the world of warhammer to tell someone that you adopted a child that came from the sky. In a world like warhammer the tribal leaders would have killed the child. He could have had foster parents that hid his identity. I believe there were a few primarchs that started out this way. Leman Russ for example.


Albion campaign- At the end of the Albion campaign there were questionable items won by the Dark elf army that had 40k wargear like descriptions.


Fantasy- Polar gateways
40k- Some planets still have archaic Gateways built by the Old ones. The Eldar have Warp ways that somewhat accomplish the same function but work completely different than the older gateways.


40k and fantasy- Old ones and Slaan are synonamous between fantasy and 40k.


40k- The Elves were created by the Old ones to combat the Necrontyr and Ctan.


Fantasy- The elves were the first race to be appear on the old world.


Fantasy and 40k theory- For some unkown reason some of the elves were brought over to the ulthuan kingdoms by the Old ones. This was about the time period that the Eldar in 40k were having dispute with the old ways and the new ways of pleasure soon thereafter the age of strife begun. I believe the Slaan did not anticipate this and were hoping by segregating some of the elves so the contamination would not spread as much. Soon after the first incursions of chaos the war of the beard ensued and the Dark elves emerged.


40k and theory- The slaan still exist but are not numerous and do not hold the intelligence they once had. However it is my belief that the Slaan still had some intelligence before the age of strife, and when the age of strife occured that is what made them lose their intelligence. The Slaan were masters of the warp before the warp storm were brought on by their very own creation. The Eldar.



So what was the purpose of the Slaan? Well the Slaan created the Eldar and other sub races like the orks to combat the menace known as the C'tan. However it is my belief that the Slaan did not know the full ramifications of bringing such beings into the universe (The Eldar effectively killed off the Slaan's greatness by severing the stability the Slaan once had over the warp) and therefore created the warhammer fantasy universe to study each race. However, the humans were not created by the old ones.



I do apologize in advance for having these facts in no apparent order. I wrote them in a very half way. hopefully it is still interesting.

[Lord-Caerolion]

Well, other than the fact that this question has been asked, and disproved, countless times, I'll say it once again for those who don't know how to search.

Sigmar is explicitly shown as having a human mother, being physically born while a comet flew overhead. The only way comets were involved with the Primarchs is that their incubation pods dropped through the atmosphere, looking like a shooting star. We know for a fact that all Primarchs were found and fought in the Great Crusade, so since no magical sky-ships have appeared over the Old World, Sigmar was not found by the Emperor. The Primarchs were not physically born on their homeworlds, unlike Sigmar. They were created in a lab on Terra, unlike Sigmar. And most importantly, GW has outright stated that there is no link between the two systems, other than the Warp.

Now, any bets as to how long before this gets locked? Please, OP, learn to use the search function.

[Anarch_Sek]

. We know for a fact that all Primarchs were found and fought in the Great Crusade, so since no magical sky-ships have appeared over the Old World, Sigmar was not found by the Emperor.

untrue my friend becuse there are 2 lost primarchs whos records were deleted BOTH the old world and 40k HAD old ones who created life in the 2 galaxies im not saying they are in the same galaxy im saying that its completely possible as the old ones left the milky way galaxy they might have brought by accident or design sigmar as they restarted in a fresh new galaxy

[Hellebore]

Those primarchs were found and then lost.

And regardless, they could have lost 20 primarchs - Sigmar was expelled from the uterus of a woman during the middle of a battle with orcs in a swamp. Fact.

Ergo, unless your theory includes 'stasis pod teleportation in utero development', it didn't happen.

Hellebore

[Mannimarco]

Cut the newbies some slack Caerolion.

Not got a whole lot to add to this as its all been said a million times before but I would like to point out this whole "the worlds arnt linked" thing.

GW has flip flopped on this issue several times from back in the mists of time where the fantasy world was in the EOT to saying theres no connection. The daemon designer notes in white dwarf do say that its the same daemons in either world so take from that what we will. Theres also that very subtle nod about "primative worlds in the eye fighting an eternal war to stop Chaos from over running their world".

If we accept Liber Chaotica as canon then the worlds are very much linked. The fictional author of the book has a number of vision where he sees the 40k universe from an out of body experience where he goes to "The planet of Sorcerers" and sees Magnus, theres visions of the praetorians of Slaanesh in great ships coming from the sky, pictures of daemon engines and an essay with a crude scribbling of Lucius the Eternal. Apparently theres pictures in a gallery in Nuln of the pics we see at the start of the Legion books from chaos 3.5. If you havnt already you should check out Liber Chaotica. Its full of wonderful little tie ins like this. I suppose at a push we could see the ploar gates as breached webway gates, it does work.

But yeah Sigmar wasnt a primarch, he had a birth mother and the time line doesnt add up, the worlds are linked though

[GhoulStars]

We know for a fact that all Primarchs were found and fought in the Great Crusade, so since no magical sky-ships have appeared over the Old World, Sigmar was not found by the Emperor.

This is a key point, it is part of established fluff that all 20 of the primarchs took part in the great crusade, the two that are missing didn't GO missing until either during or after, they were there at it's commencement i'm afraid

Sigmar was just a very burly and charismatic human, nothing more, nothing less

[Hellebore]

According to MvS, the author of the last 3 volumes of the Liber, the visions of 40k didn't mean they were connected at all and weren't there to infer that.

As a more practical example, I can dream about a land where I float in bubbles and eat rainbows, but it doesn't mean that land exists in reality...

Hellebore

[Lord-Caerolion]

untrue my friend becuse there are 2 lost primarchs whos records were deleted BOTH the old world and 40k HAD old ones who created life in the 2 galaxies im not saying they are in the same galaxy im saying that its completely possible as the old ones left the milky way galaxy they might have brought by accident or design sigmar as they restarted in a fresh new galaxy

So, the Old Ones brought the being who was born, from a human mother, who was conceived like normal, to a world millions of years after they were wiped out?

Your theory doesn't change the fact that we have, in the Marine codex, a statement that

all 20 primarchs were found, and fought with their Legions.

It doesn't change that Sigmar wasn't made in a lab, but that he was [/i]physically born from a mother, with numerous witnesses[/i].

Sigmar was a great man in the Warhammer World, nothing more. Every piece of evidence we have shows he wasn't a Primarch. Your evidence consists of a tenuous link between 40k and Fantasy, and that Sigmar united lots of humans. Our evidence consists of numerous canon statements, including an outright statement that Sigmar's mother gave birth to him during an attack by Orcs while a comet flew overhead, and that there were numerous tribesmen there to witness the birth.

If Sigmar were a Primarch, he would have been found where the comet landed. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. Also, the term "born" has never been used to describe the findings of the Primarchs. Each has been explicitly stated to have been found as a child. Each has been explicitly stated to have fallen to their world in an incubation pod, in which they were already created. No Primarch has ever been said to have had a mother. They have had adoptive fathers, usually the person who found them, and have been created in a lab by the Emperor and his teams of scientists.

I'm sorry if I seem snippy, but this question has been asked over and over, and the same answers are given over and over. This question would have been answered if you took 5 minutes to look over the 8 threads in the sticky over who the missing Primarchs are, the two threads over whether 40k and Fantasy are linked (and those are just the ones listed in the sticky, there are almost certainly more of them), or used the search engine to read one of the innumerable topics asking your exact question, using your exact arguments (minus the Slaanesh causing the polar gates collapsing), and being refuted by the exact same sources.

I have read the Liber Chaotica, I own all 5, and you should note that even in the sections discussing 40k, nowhere does it raise the possibility of Sigmar being a Primarch. It discusses every other way in which the universes are linked via the Warp, yet nowhere does the author draw a parallel between the Primarchs and Sigmar, or have a dream of Sigmar joining the Primarchs, or anything.

[Lothlanathorian]

Also, it doesn't change the fact that the Background FAQ exists. Stickied. At the top of the page. And it says 'read before posting a new thread' so that certain topics that are predictably cyclical don't keep repeating themselves over and over ad nauseum.

[Anteloch]

As a more practical example, I can dream about a land where I float in bubbles and eat rainbows, but it doesn't mean that land exists in reality...
Hellebore

Ah, but this is warhammer we're talking about. Place where dreams and visions can be very real

[Hellebore]

Ah, but this is warhammer we're talking about. Place where dreams and visions can be very real

Can being the operative word.

Hellebore

[Lord-Caerolion]

And that, as I mentioned, there are 10 threads in the FAQ alone that discuss this theory, let alone the ones explicitly talking about Sigmar being a Primarch, or the ones not linked in the sticky.

[Iuris]

OP, try reading up on the guy in the BL books Had a father and a mother, for starters, was of normal stature and ability, fell in love, had children...

[AvatarForm]

RE: 2 missing Primarchs... we know that Space Wolves killed one, if not both... and if you look at the Ultramarines, during a short period their numbers increased by 100k... possibly due to absorbing a chapter whose primarch was executed.

RE: Links between WFB and 40k...

Elves = Eldar

Dark Elves = Dark Eldar

Chaos = Chaos

Dwarves = Squats ;p

[Bubonic Chronic]

RE: 2 missing Primarchs... we know that Space Wolves killed one, if not bothp

Do we?
Never heard of the 2 missing primarchs being found in the first place yet alone being killed or executed

[Lord Damocles]

Your theory doesn't change the fact that we have, in the Marine codex, a statement that

all 20 primarchs were found, and fought with their Legions.

Does it actually say that in the 5th ed. Codex: space Marines? (I can't find it)

I thought that the only mention of them all being found was from Codex: Ultramarines (pg.7):
'Twenty Space Marine Legions took part in the Great Crusade. These twenty are known as the First Founding because they were the first Space Marines to be created. Each Legion was led by its own Primarch, the god-like being whose genetic structure formed the basis for the Legion’s gene-seed.'

[abasio]

Not exactly the most compelling evidence OP. As others have stated it would be very hard for Sigmar to be a Primarch because he was born to a human mother (aparently documented and witnessed) and all the 20 Primarchs were found and reunited with their legions and fought in the Great Crusade. They even had statues that were removed as told in the Lightening Tower. As Sigmar never took a long sabatical from the Fantasy setting to go and fight gribblies in space we can be pretty sure that he wasn't a Primarch.....

or was he?

What if the Warhammer Fantasy world is in a different reality that also borders on the warp like our own universe does. So although it is an entirely different universe it still has the same chaos gods. Maybe while the infant primarchs were in the warp, one was split in two by the forces of chaos and half of one of the primarchs (maybe one of the weaker ones that's why he was not as tough as his brothers) was reverted into a foetus and warp magically placed into a woman's uterus so that the chaos gribblies on that planet would have someone decent to fight (as they don't want to win they want constant war).

Or they could be two completely seperate universes with the same gods

[Torpedo Vegas]

The idea that Sigmar could have been a Primarch in the 40k universe but a normal man in Fantasy makes no sense. Even if it is the case, that person would be a Primarch named Sigmar, a different being from Sigmar Heldenhammer, who is a normal man with a mother and father, children, and who wasn't 8 feet tall.

Besides, we all know that the 40k universe is in a bottle in the Gold Magic College in Altdorf.

[[lexus]]

Does it actually say that in the 5th ed. Codex: space Marines? (I can't find it)

I thought that the only mention of them all being found was from Codex: Ultramarines (pg.7):
'Twenty Space Marine Legions took part in the Great Crusade. These twenty are known as the First Founding because they were the first Space Marines to be created. Each Legion was led by its own Primarch, the god-like being whose genetic structure formed the basis for the Legion’s gene-seed.'

That pretty much says it right? All of them were found, and participated in the Great Crusade.

Also, doesnt this question stem from the older fluff which did not clearly state the birth of Sigmar? I seem to remember reading something were it was said that he was found on the night a meteor fell from the sky. Not that he was born from a human mother. I suppose they retconned it, and I cant remember were I read it.

The OP might be right about the Slaan though. There are numerous references to toad like magical creatures and old ones that live somewhere in the Halo stars in the Warhammer 40K background.

[chriscrowing]

Fantasy and 40K developed as parralels, with implcations in early fluff that the Warhammer Fantasy Battle world was either in the Eye of Terror OR Terra in a pre-glacial period, similar to the setting for the Lord of the Rings.

However, as GW grew up a bit, realised that 40K was a far more developed setting and would only be hurt by explicit links to Warhammer (and Warhammer would be lessened also) especially by having the Eldar as 'just' space elves, etc. they decided to categorically separate the two universes.

They are not joined, and for this reason alone, let alone the many other worthy ones, Sigmar is not a Primarch. Sorry.