8th Edition Orc & Goblin Armybook Tactics

[Avian]

Having more banners in B&G is never a disadvantage as the number you need to keep is always the same. There is no reason to be any less or more concerned about them if they lack a standard.

[Armond]

I don't take standards just so I can save some points. I don't expect my gobbos to do anything more than hold a unit up or slow them down. My bunker is 25 gobbos with a few fanatics just to make skirmishers/fast cav/character hunters a bit wary about charging in.

@Avian, I have been typically playing against DE and HE, but Ogres will probably be showing up soon. I will be adding a unit of Savage Orcs to add some hit, and maybe a 5 Orc unit of Savage Orc Boar Riders. They seem to fit my theme more than standard Orcs, just because all of my gobbos are "forest" gobbos. I want my army to seem ind of primitive. Also, my list has slightly changed. I now I have 3 units of 5 spider riders w/musicians and have added a "wolf spider chariot" in there. The chariot is made out of a hollowed log and drawn by two spiders. I am thinking of adding a troll or two by dropping a unit of spider riders just to have a different kind of threat. I would of course model them as Forest Trolls/Spider Trolls.

[Oogie boogie boss]

I always always always take a standard where possible. It just makes sense.

[Armond]

Why so? If the unit is used just to hold up/tarpit a unit, and you fully expect them to lose combat why would you need standards? That is an extra 25 points per standard captured, that may not seem like a lot, but if you have standards where possible then they add up.

If you put the standard in a unit that intends to get into combat and you plan to win(odds are in your favor because of a match-up), I could see the value there. But putting standards in units that have a low chance of winning combat(like my bunker of 20-25 night gobbos w/bows) would make me waste points.

Putting a standard in a unit of 6 Spider Riders for example is just a waste of points. I could use those points towards more goblins or maybe towards a chariot or something(if you have multiple units of fast cav). 6 Spider Riders are there to take out a warmachine crew or two, maybe a small unit of skirmishers, or maybe a character running around. If I need a standard to do that, something is wrong.

If you said I always take a musician I would agree.

[Glenn87]

I put banners in EVERY unit except: my Night Gobbo bunker, all they get is the Musician for a fast reform, and the Wolf Rider unit. I would give it to the wolf riders if it was a unit of 10 intended to get into combat.

[Malorian]

I always always always take a standard where possible. It just makes sense.

I put banners in EVERY unit except: my Night Gobbo bunker, all they get is the Musician for a fast reform, and the Wolf Rider unit.

You get 2 for your general and 1 for your bsb, so really to not lose the game all you need is one other unit to have it.

For greenskin players, in games where you lose your general you generally lose that game as well. The bsb too to some extent. So why have a ton of other banners?

To me the 1 point of combat res very rarely matters so I would rather have one in my bunker as again when my bunker falls I've also generally lost the game.

You can go nuts and run a list with 10 extra banners in it, but like I said above these really aren't doing much for you except making a game you lose 85% of the time (rough estimate) not an auto-lose. Meanwhile those points could have bought an extra unit, beefed up an existing one, or got you more gear that would have stopped you from losing that key unit in the first place.

[Glenn87]

You get 2 for your general and 1 for your bsb, so really to not lose the game all you need is one other unit to have it.

For greenskin players, in games where you lose your general you generally lose that game as well. The bsb too to some extent. So why have a ton of other banners?

To me the 1 point of combat res very rarely matters so I would rather have one in my bunker as again when my bunker falls I've also generally lost the game.

You can go nuts and run a list with 10 extra banners in it, but like I said above these really aren't doing much for you except making a game you lose 85% of the time (rough estimate) not an auto-lose. Meanwhile those points could have bought an extra unit, beefed up an existing one, or got you more gear that would have stopped you from losing that key unit in the first place.

If I play the bunker route (tried it for the first time this week, and liked it), then I've got 2-3 Hordes in front of it. Losing one of those Hordes will cost me more then losing that 1 bunker with the general. If not going the bunker way, then my general will be in a combat unit.

I do like your opinion on skipping all banners, saying that 1 point of combat res won't matter that much. does make me think, do we need command groups then??
Seeing that they're making ALL command groups cost pretty much the same, we might need to skip them altogether, saving 30-35 points PER unit. that's an extra Troll.

[Malorian]

do we need command groups then??

I haven't been running musicians since I stopped being a jerk and doing the watchtower blitz, I've almost never seen use in a champ exept when running combat characters, and banners have very limited use.

[Glenn87]

I haven't been running musicians since I stopped being a jerk and doing the watchtower blitz, I've almost never seen use in a champ exept when running combat characters, and banners have very limited use.

hmm, not trying to sound n00bish, but what is the watchtower blitz??

[Malorian]

With the watchtower being < 12 inches away a unit of movement 4 or more can swift reform to be as long as possible and then just move into the tower on turn 1.

[Glenn87]

damn...that's one f'cked up trick!!
pretty much as damned as the conga-line

but we don't ever play scenario's...altough maybe I should try out the watchtower, seems like fun.
We usually just play untill 1 guy has been totally routed (or scoops because his situation is hopeless).

[CmdrLaw]

I was playing with some concepts for a new O&G force, not played thme before but have always had a soft spot for Orcs (less so goblins).

Comparing points costs for hordes was first step, looking at 40man Orcs sheilds, big un's, savage, savage biguns, BlOrcs etc.

I did really like Grimgor as it's an ace character and model, but when looking at his 355!!!pt cost (admiteddly he is tripple badass with great protection)

You can get a 40 strong Orc Big un /w shields or a Savage Orc with XHW Horde for only 5pts more....

Seems obvious which is the more desirable option, anyone found Grimgor to be that effective.

[Oogie boogie boss]

I'd go for the horde every time, unless it was a big game. Personally, as good as some characters are, i always find a unit will be more tactically useful than a character (obviously, this does depend on the context and there are exceptions, but i'm talking generalities).
I think characters should exist to enhance or complement units/the army as a whole, not be the basis of your strategy.
Don't get me wrong, Grimgor is hard as nails, but would always take a unit over a character if push came to shove.

[CmdrLaw]

I guess the main balancing fact is that I will still need a general so once you take the 115pts base +100pts items It's not actually that much less than Grimgor. Unless you keep the characters dirt cheap.

[Ghremdal]

Yeah, you can keep your general and/or BSB in a bunker behind your lines, but it is not risk free. Lots of things can threaten your bunker, and if you have all your eggs in one basket bad things can happen.


You don't even save that many points, if you include the cost of the bunker (60 points). Even if you take the max magic item allowance for both the general and the BSB you save only 90 points.

I would also never skimp on musicians. Ties do happen, and the ability to swift reform is great. Not to mention that +1 LD when you need to rally.

[HaeSuse]

Seems to me, any unit you fully expect and want to get into combat, should have a musician and standard. The Standard for CR, the musician for CR tie breaks and for the possible free reform on next turn to keep them in the fray. Champion if and only if you are also putting a fighty character in it, and you want the option of accepting a challenge with someone other than Mr. Fighty Orc. Also (much less pertinent to OnG than other armies) if you have units you fully expect to flee as a their main charge reaction (glade guard, for example), and NOT get in combat if at all possible, then you should definitely have a musician, for the +1 LD on rally roll, and free reform.

Obviously there would be exceptions.

[Malorian]

Attrition units could use a banner/musician such as a horde of shield orcs, but when you really look at it your horde of big un savages and horde of black orcs typically win by a lot or lose by a lot.

If you gave both these units a banner and musician I would think that the times you would actually be using these would be really remote, and for example if you were to expect they would actually be used once every 5 games (probably would be even more rare) then you are basically paying 100 points to have a slight bonus in that rare event.

"Hey look, we tied! And I have a musician! So it's an actual tie! I'm so glad I paid the 100 points so I wouldn't have to depend on a rerollable LD 8 test!"


As for the +1 LD to rally and the swift reform, like I said I've only found swift reform to be really helpful in building tricks, and if you need to rally you either fled and are near your bunker (LD9 rerolled), was a cheap bait unit anyway, or you fled combat and half the time you would be completely wiped out anyway, half the times you didn't get caught it would be your opponent's turn next and they would recharge you before you could rally, so it is only 25% of the times you actually break that you get this slight bonus.

[HaeSuse]

"Hey look, we tied! And I have a musician! So it's an actual tie! I'm so glad I paid the 100 points so I wouldn't have to depend on a rerollable LD 8 test!"

You lost me here. Let's say you had those 2 mentioned hordes. A horde of blorcs, and a horde of savage biguns. Two banners, and two musicians is 40 points total, right? So, you pay 40 points for those bonuses. It could get you, what? 1 troll. or 4 more savage biguns or 3 more blorcs.

As for the +1 LD to rally and the swift reform, like I said I've only found swift reform to be really helpful in building tricks, and if you need to rally you either fled and are near your bunker (LD9 rerolled), was a cheap bait unit anyway, or you fled combat and half the time you would be completely wiped out anyway, half the times you didn't get caught it would be your opponent's turn next and they would recharge you before you could rally, so it is only 25% of the times you actually break that you get this slight bonus.

True on this. However, you failed to mention the times that those 2 hordes WIN combat. What if they pursue the fleeing unit, and have to pursue 12" away? Next turn, the swift reform would be invaluable. A lot of the time, without the musician you might decide NOT to pursue, just because of the terrible position it would leave you in. With the swift reform, you might decide to run them down, seeing as how you can very possibly turn right around and walk right back into the fray.

[Ghremdal]

My Big Un Savages and Black Orcs actually often fight comparable units, and the results are fairly even. It is anecdotal evidence but a couple of times I had a tie, and without the musician my SOBU's would have lost the combat, meaning that they would have lost frenzy.

The swift reforms also help when you want a more optimal formation with which to charge into combat next turn; with a swift reform you get to move closer to the opponent thus improving your likelyhood of a successful charge.

The point is it gives you a tactical advantage, which might not come up every game, can be invaluable at times. The cost of which is one 1 model more or less.

[HaeSuse]

My Big Un Savages and Black Orcs actually often fight comparable units, and the results are fairly even. It is anecdotal evidence but a couple of times I had a tie, and without the musician my SOBU's would have lost the combat, meaning that they would have lost frenzy.

Didn't think about that. 20 points to possibly keep frenzy. Very good point.

The swift reforms also help when you want a more optimal formation with which to charge into combat next turn; with a swift reform you get to move closer to the opponent thus improving your likelyhood of a successful charge.

The point is it gives you a tactical advantage, which might not come up every game, can be invaluable at times. The cost of which is one 1 model more or less.

Agreed completely.