8th Edition Orc & Goblin Armybook Tactics

[Glenn87]

alright I know this is meta-game based but does anyone else find fanatics rather useless?
Besides the accessional heavy mounted you come across they never make up there points. I just can seem to find a rational reason to include them other than that potential to take out maybe 4 knights if they are silly enough to charge the unit.

Guess I am biased since they have never really done anything for me.

I find Fanatics EXTREMELY usefull. the more, the better (altough if I'm a few points over at the end of my list, I usually drop 1 or so to even the points out).
It starts with Deployement. My opponents know I'll be bringing my fanatics, so will think/doubt about their deployement or deploy a bit different.
Most people will use up resources trying to get the fanatics out. Resources wich else might go to other things.

The only problem with fanatics is that you can't charge an enemy unit, or you'll get a (big) chance of getting the hits yourself/having to out the trough your flank, in wich case they'll be whirling in your line.

Full Fanatics cost 75 points for a unit, but in the case of Gobbo's, Fanatics usually kill more then our WS2, S3 guys to. It's also the unit's answer to heavy armoured troops.
Like said, you don't really want to charge with a unit that has fanatics, wich makes animosity quite dangerous.

The good thing is, O&G have alot of different targets for Warmachine hunters/Redirectors. Fanatics, Manglers, Doom Divers, ... the opponent has to make a choice wich one of those he (tries to) kills.

Good thing about fanatics is, that 3/4th of their advantages even counts if you DON'T take them, if you're playing with closed lists.
Even just putting them on the table next to your dice/Doom Diver template is enough to scare your opponents (altough a bit tricky, and considered unsportive by some )

[russellmoo]

Fanatics make a defensive unit even better- if you have a tendency to rush everything forward, and are a very aggressive player- take 100 ng's with spears and nets but leave the fanatics out-

Personally, I like using my NG's as a mostly defensive/tarpit unit- as such they have bows and will have between 1-3 fanatics + b-boss characters-

This units job is to take on the enemy's big nasty unit, or to hold one flank/center while I destroy the other-

In short- fanatics aren't the auto-include they were in 7th and they need to fit into your overall battle plan to be worth taking- other wise just leave them out-

[Glenn87]

another fun thing with fanatics and Orcs is that you can cast Hand of Gork (or Mork, whatever) on the NG unit, drop it next to the enemy's line, and watch him eat his hat!!

[Ghremdal]

I usually place the 3 Orcs in the Big'Un unit, and the solo Ng lvl 2 with the NG's.
Why isn't there a use to Crown in the Big'Uns?? I've had times they lost combat and I needed the crown.

I must point out that this is the first time that I'm using Trolls and a squig herd tough.

With three characters and a very offensive unit you shouldn't be losing combat all that often. Things that you do lose combat to, should generaly have fewer ranks then you, thus you will be steadfast(stubborn) anyway.

[Glenn87]

I'm playing brets first with 1500 points (no worries here, not a really good player, and Manglers/Doom Divers will get the better of him).

But the 2 things that worry me with the Lizzie player are the poisoned skinks and the Slann Mage.

[Djekar]

Fanatics are also really great if you happen to run a bunker unit or two behind your lines. Anything fast that gets back to threaten you (fast cav, flyers, scouts, coming on from board edges) get a face full of spinning steel. The big thing here is that since they are in a bunker unit they are harder to get "popped" prematurely since the rest of your line is the in way.

They have other uses too, but that's the reason I keep bringing them, even if it is in low (1-2) amounts.

[HaeSuse]

Fanatics are also really great if you happen to run a bunker unit or two behind your lines. Anything fast that gets back to threaten you (fast cav, flyers, scouts, coming on from board edges) get a face full of spinning steel. The big thing here is that since they are in a bunker unit they are harder to get "popped" prematurely since the rest of your line is the in way.

The other big thing is that from the time they "pop" out, until they die or the game ends, you will now have multiple crazed hallucinating balls of death behind your lines. That could end very very badly.

[Glenn87]

Fanatics are also really great if you happen to run a bunker unit or two behind your lines. Anything fast that gets back to threaten you (fast cav, flyers, scouts, coming on from board edges) get a face full of spinning steel. The big thing here is that since they are in a bunker unit they are harder to get "popped" prematurely since the rest of your line is the in way.

They have other uses too, but that's the reason I keep bringing them, even if it is in low (1-2) amounts.

I find this tactic to be a bit dangerous. You need to keep "12 between the bunker and your main units (at least the NG horde and the Trolls).
Fanatics pop out at "8.
It's not that hard for a Flyer or small unit of fast cav to get trough your line, take the fanatic, and then those fanatics are trashing trough your units.



Another small question on the Bunker. It seems most of you use this bunker.
Is it really good? I still use the Orc/Black Orc BSB and Savage Shaman with the shrunken head in the Savage horde. But most people like the normal Shaman and NG BSB with Ld Banner sitting behind the line.
Is that better??
And what if you have a Warboss (wich has to be the general due to higher Ld)??

[russellmoo]

Putting fanatics in your bunker is not as dangerous as you think because you get to choose what part of the unit the NG's pop out from, and in what direction they initially travel- you don't have to send them at the unit that triggered the fanatics release- (Plus mine seldom seem to even go 8" so anything that would trigger them usually ends up safe- unless they are charging)

A warboss should be seen as more of a luxury than a necessity- they are fluffy and fun- but not necessarily the ideal general- usually if you are going the bunker route- you take a goblin warboss as general- or just put your mismatched general in with the gobbo bunker-

However, I find an orc warboss is wasted in a bunker- so when I take one he is in a unit of boar boyz, with a boar boy bsb, and shaman and the unit sits in back until the moment is right before charging in, casting 'Ere we go' and calling "WAAAAGH!!"

[amysrevenge]

Putting fanatics in your bunker is not as dangerous as you think because you get to choose what part of the unit the NG's pop out from, and in what direction they initially travel- you don't have to send them at the unit that triggered the fanatics release- (Plus mine seldom seem to even go 8" so anything that would trigger them usually ends up safe- unless they are charging)

I recently had this come up, and my only real option (due to bad deployment on my part) was to fire my fanatics directly into a nearby building, to prevent them from messing up my own army.

[Glenn87]

I recently had this come up, and my only real option (due to bad deployment on my part) was to fire my fanatics directly into a nearby building, to prevent them from messing up my own army.

exactly my toughts. Even if you don't have to release the fanatics to the front, then they are either wirling around in your own deployement zone, or they'll smack into something, and you've just wasted between 25-75 points. For those points, you could get an extra Troll, or a chariot. Hell, 3 fanatics could even buy you an extra Mangler Squig (if you don't have 2 already).

[snottlebocket]

And what if you have a Warboss (wich has to be the general due to higher Ld)??

Warbosses are hard to justify these days. They simply aren't that good. You get way more mileage out of buying as many combat orc and goblin heroes as you see fit. More wounds, more attacks, separate targets and the leadership stays longer.

It's easier to soak up the damage enemy characters can cause with cheap rank and file while staying steadfast. Let the bosses deal some damage in return. Any character that will really put the beat down on your units is too tough for a warlord to handle anyway, might as well challenge those with a series of champions and bosses. Or let them waste their attacks on cheap gobs and boyz.

[Kalandros]

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...75#post5982575

This is where my list is at, 454 pts left. What do I do?! hah. (Also 20 trolls is already pushing beyond what I have available right now)
NG Nets & Spear horde of doom?
Black Orcs flankers or horde?
Artillery?
Pump Wagons & Chariots?

I'm so uncertain.

Its gonna be for a 6 games tournament so I need to be ready against.. everything! (I'll do what I can if I meet up the annoying Wraith-character wall... )

[Djekar]

The other big thing is that from the time they "pop" out, until they die or the game ends, you will now have multiple crazed hallucinating balls of death behind your lines. That could end very very badly.

How could that end badly? If they hit a warmachine, they still only wound on 6's, and the only other units I field that are scared of fanatics (fast cavalry and chariots) are generally pretty far away from a bunker. So, I have the chance to get protect my bunker from small, fast moving or "pop up" threats. In return, I have the chance to knock 1-2d6 off of my own rather large units. Worst case scenario you send them into terrain and bam, you've wasted 50 points. Except you really haven't because those points are still tied to your bunker - which means it's still working like (very lite) point denial.

If it really bothers you, I suggest that you take a pump wagon (for minimally cheaper) that is (minimally) more controlable that can do the same thing - protect you from surprises like scouts and hidden deployments. I don't rate them as highly however because they take a turn to get rolling (pun intended), where as fanatics can help me dictate some of my opponents movement.

[snottlebocket]

How could that end badly? If they hit a warmachine, they still only wound on 6's, and the only other units I field that are scared of fanatics (fast cavalry and chariots) are generally pretty far away from a bunker. So, I have the chance to get protect my bunker from small, fast moving or "pop up" threats. In return, I have the chance to knock 1-2d6 off of my own rather large units. Worst case scenario you send them into terrain and bam, you've wasted 50 points. Except you really haven't because those points are still tied to your bunker - which means it's still working like (very lite) point denial.

If it really bothers you, I suggest that you take a pump wagon (for minimally cheaper) that is (minimally) more controlable that can do the same thing - protect you from surprises like scouts and hidden deployments. I don't rate them as highly however because they take a turn to get rolling (pun intended), where as fanatics can help me dictate some of my opponents movement.

They move randomly. A number of fanatics moving through your units several times will very quickly negate the few advantages you had over your opponent to begin with. Our troops aren't that cheap.

[Glenn87]

Worst case scenario you send them into terrain and bam, you've wasted 50 points. Except you really haven't because those points are still tied to your bunker - which means it's still working like (very lite) point denial.

yeah. But my point wasn't that your opponent would get those 50 victory points. My point was that you've just spend 50 points doing NOTHING.
Those 50 points could buy you an extra chariot for example, wich WOULD do something.


Another funny question on the lvl 4+NG BSB in bunker:
Have you guys all forsaken the Savage Shaman with the Lucky Shrunken Head for the Savage Horde??

[russellmoo]

I think most players put their lvl 4 sav orc shaman in the savage orc horde-

The bunker is mainly for the BSB, and or Goblin warboss general-

Also- I don't think players generally put more than 1 fanatic if any in the bunker-

In my mind the best way to use NG's + fanatics is having a horde of them with fanatics holding one flank or the center while the other flank is over run by orcs/trolls-

[Djekar]

@Snottlebucket: if you routinely get 2 fanatics running through your lines multiple times back and forth then you have terrible luck. I have that kind of luck with pump wagons - they often run into warmachines or blow themselves up which is why I switched to fanatics.

@Glenn87: sure they might not do anything, but my point was that you aren't actually down points for it. I'm not saying they are foolproof units of destruction - they have truly random movement! My point is just that a 25-50 point investment to protect your bunker from surprise bad things isn't a terrible idea. But as I said before, if you are against the idea of fanatics, I suggest you keep a Pump Wagon or Mangler or something in your backfield if you happen to be running a bunker.

[snottlebocket]

@Snottlebucket: if you routinely get 2 fanatics running through your lines multiple times back and forth then you have terrible luck. I have that kind of luck with pump wagons - they often run into warmachines or blow themselves up which is why I switched to fanatics.

If you release fanatics in front of your line there's a chance they'll turn around, hit you and end up behind you. After which you move forward and leave them behind.

If you release fanatics behind your line, there's a chance they'll turn around, hit you, end up in front of you and then either block your advance or worse yet do the same trick again and end up behind you.

The latter is quite a bit worse.

[Magot]

If you release fanatics in front of your line there's a chance they'll turn around, hit you and end up behind you. After which you move forward and leave them behind.

If you release fanatics behind your line, there's a chance they'll turn around, hit you, end up in front of you and then either block your advance or worse yet do the same trick again and end up behind you.

The latter is quite a bit worse.

Fanatics are ABSOLUTE FUN.
think of the surprise with your opponent when you charge him with your 60 NG´s, straight THROUG the (in an earlier turn released) Fanatic(s)

If I do think they will cause too much damage on my side, I simply shoot them myself.

.