8th Edition Orc & Goblin Armybook Tactics

[Glemigobles]

Oddball - what price (pts) would you give to crossbow orcs? I'm making a 1000pts orc slavers warband for our local campaign and I want to include 2 units of 10. My proposal is 10pts per model. Me thinks that's about right...

[Artinam]

2 points on top of an Arrer boy for the increased range and extra power.
Maybe its an idea to simply take Rugluds Armoured Orcs and base your rules on them .

[Glemigobles]

So you say 9pts...that's even better!
On Ruglud - aren't they big'uns (statwise) in the DoW book?

[russellmoo]

9pts is more than fair- as animosity is potentially a problem for such a unit-as it will keep them from firing their crossbows-

[bigbear bailey]

Black orc warboss is pure debauchery (not to mention blorc BSB) You have to pay extra for heavy armour and +1 WS which can be boosted by magic items anyway... Despite that, I thik that regardless of the orc kind it's best to give orc chars something that make them strike before others. I usually go with a savage warboss with the ASF sword. Cheaper than a blorc and much more dangerous. For a more defense oriented army I'd go with a common orc, or even a gobbo warboss with 9ld and 4+/4++ if I only wanted a ld general and not a fighty one.
Summing up - blorcs are expansive, and if you really want to field them give 'em something that'll boost their Ini, otherwise other chars will put them down in a sec (herald of khorne, vamp with KB, bretonian lord and so on and so forth)

Couldn't disagree more. The fact that the Black orcs keep my guys in line (killing them if need be) is more then worth it. Our troops are undercosted for what they do anyway so no sweat to me if kick some around. Black orc chrs should be looked at in this way always to me:
1) Never give them a magic weapon. You are paying for armed to the teef and it's a great rule, so use it.
2) Never put them in Black orc units, or units that don't squabble. The bully beat down rule is very good for flanking units (and units with LV 4s in there).
3) The heavy armor is a plus that you can't get anywhere else so why not avoid getting rid of it and take other things like dragons helm or wards to help keep him a live.
4) Cheap is best, they cost a lot already so don't get to carried away!

[Glemigobles]

"The fact that the Black orcs keep my guys in line..." - jeez how many blorc heroes do you field per army? It reminds me of the 4/5th ed. Rick Priestley tactic. Slightly outdated if you ask me. But I won't argue if it works for you. I play it simple and animosity is something that sometimes happens. Doesn't bother me that much.
As I see it you treat blorc bb's as 90pts immune to animosity unit upgrade. It makes sense but it's not my cup of tea.
"Cheap is best" - that is a general O&G thought. IMHO blorcs are a counter argument to that statement.

[Djekar]

It should be said that you can mount Black Orc Big Bosses on a Boar (woah - alliteration) and get them to a 1+ armor save pretty cheaply. You are free to then run them in a unit until you either A) need them to charge out at some pesky missile unit/fleeing unit/help a different combat or B) celebrate your glorious victory.

Yes, I know that they can be picked out by templates and shooting. Most things will struggle to get past T5 and 1+AS however, and the things that don't really have much better targets than a ~120 point model.

[Glemigobles]

I thought that Blorc bb's can be mounted on boars...there's even a blorc hero on a boar convertion in the book. Or are these blorc warbosses...

[Shimmergloom]

Most templates ignore armor saves anyway, so losing the LOS is a much bigger deal than getting a 1+ armor save.

[Djekar]

I suppose I did ignore spell templates in my statement - hrm.

I was thinking artillery templates. Cannons shooting your 111/118 point model - bad for you, but better than trying to hit a general or bsb. Stone Throwers only ignore armor under the whole, so they are looking for a direct hit - which even if they get it means that they placed the template to hit many fewer models than normal (especially if you are running captain boar on the far side of the unit). You are, however, correct that spell templates like Pit or Purple Sun will eat this guy alive. I suppose my rebuttal to that would be: since those spells do all sorts of nasty things to your units anyways aren't we already trying to dispel them?

[Shimmergloom]

If I had a cannon and I knew I was virtually guaranteed to gain 118vp with each shot, then I would take that every time. And I would place every template over a character that didn't get a LOS every time as well, even with less odds of it being a direct hit and even if that meant I killed a few less orcs. Killing 3 more orcs will not get you vps, killing a black orc big boss will.

[Djekar]

So you would target a black orc big boss with a cannon even if there were a level 4, a BSB and a general all in the same army with him? I say that's a win for Mr. Boar - please target him. I'd much rather lose him than have to roll a Look Out, Sir!. You're also then ignoring any chariots and/or manglers and/or maybe even a monster (I like to take an Arachnarok every once in a while, but that's not necessarily A list material). As far as the pie plate goes I think that it is worth the risk if it causes my opponent to A) target a point in my unit that keeps more of my necessary troops alive and B)hoping for that magical hit on the scatter dice - 1/3 I know, but it isn't guaranteed.

Nothing is fool proof, but I really believe that if you are worried about animosity and you want some more maneuverable/solo elements in your army then it's worth the ~120 points. He should be able to take out small missile units and warmachines and most redirectors on his own which can be a big deal. There is a reason that a lot of Lizardmen players take scar veterans on cold ones after all.

[madival]

hey, I was hoping you guys could tell me if I should make my core a gunline type goblin list. Here is the specials and the rares. special

2xspear chukka

2xspear chukka

2xspear chukka

3xwolf chariots

rare

doom diver

doom diver

pump wagon-exploding mushrooms

pump wagon-exploding mushrooms

Giant

the giant is for fun and everything else is what I have. What do you guys think? should I try to gunline my core?

[Shimmergloom]

So you would target a black orc big boss with a cannon even if there were a level 4, a BSB and a general all in the same army with him? I say that's a win for Mr. Boar - please target him. I'd much rather lose him than have to roll a Look Out, Sir!. You're also then ignoring any chariots and/or manglers and/or maybe even a monster (I like to take an Arachnarok every once in a while, but that's not necessarily A list material).

General's, bsb's and lvl 4's have the 2+ LOS and should have good wards on top of that. So yes, if I see a boar that I can target and ignore any LOS and know that 4+ wards will be in short supply with lvl 4's, bsb's and generals also in the army than it is better to take the sure points with your cannon.

Manglers can be taken care of with chaff, which any wily opponent will know, just like they know to use chaff to draw out fanatics. But either way if you are putting black orc big bosses on boars in multiple units + have a lvl 4, general and bsb, then you are not going to have much points left over for chariots and arachnaroks and manglers anyway.

[skabradisdead]

Hey gang... Was looking to run a throgg lust in a local event that banned special characters. I realized that I could run a similar list with the new o and g... Was thinking of building the army around 2 units of 30 savage Orc boys, a horde of goblins and 3 units of 8 trolls... (and a few mangler squigs for fun)

you guys rate 3 units of 8 trolls at 2400 points? I know it will not win every game but it looks like fun to do...

[TsukeFox]

General's, bsb's and lvl 4's have the 2+ LOS and should have good wards on top of that. So yes, if I see a boar that I can target and ignore any LOS and know that 4+ wards will be in short supply with lvl 4's, bsb's and generals also in the army than it is better to take the sure points with your cannon.

Manglers can be taken care of with chaff, which any wily opponent will know, just like they know to use chaff to draw out fanatics. But either way if you are putting black orc big bosses on boars in multiple units + have a lvl 4, general and bsb, then you are not going to have much points left over for chariots and arachnaroks and manglers anyway.

I think Djekar was only talking about bringing one Big Boss boar rider-
Which can take care of the chaff that are aiming for the Manglers.

Further there is always a fair chance that the artillery piece is will misfire (I just watched a report in which a salamander misfired almost every turn. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNS2E...e_gdata_player )

Further the cannon can always run up short the 1st turn and the boar boss can hopefully charge into things on the 2nd.

There really should not be a shortage of points-I think shimmergloom you are looking at this from your "A-list" build in which you are buying 100 NGs, 40 BOs, & 40 savage Bigguns. Trim 10 from each of the Orc units and 20-30 from the goblins unit and you will see points appear.

A boar boss does not have as high rate of success as a mounted scar vet due to not having cold blooded/ nor the fire sword. However the boar boss success rate is still good by distracting artillery from larger targets/ chariots (such good units) / bunkers, killing chaff, artillery hunting, & maybe even tieing up a unit.

Chaos Dwarf players get great use out of mounted hobogoblin Khans & they might not even have a 2+ armou save.

Just watch any YouTube tournament report from England where someone is facing up against Lizardman-without killing blow around or artillery the mounted Scar Vets go on a rampage.
That is why ETC comp limits lizards to 2 scar vets.

[Oogie boogie boss]

Changing the subject slightly, I've played my first few games with my SO recently, and had great fun and mixed results. So far i've won a close game against some Beastmen, drew against some Brettonians and lost twice to WoC (these were the first two games I played), the first time being soundly beaten and the second time being 8 VP away from a draw. All the games were 1,000pts and all the games were a basic Pitched Battle so I could get used to the army.

The army I used (which i've posted previously) was as follows:

Heroes
Savage Orc Big Boss: Basha's Axe of Stunty Smashin'- 120pts

Savage Orc Shaman: Lv 2, Power Stone, Dragonbane Gem- 130pts

Core

20 Savage Orcs: Command, Extra Choppa- 215pts

20 Savage Orcs: Command, Extra Choppa- 215pts

Special

5 Savage Orc Boar Boys: Command, Spears, Shields, Big Uns, Banner of Swiftness- 180pts

Rare

3 River Trolls- 135pts

Total: 995pts

My question is this; how would you use that army to beat WoC?

My opponent used very different lists in the two games, the first being a unit of 18 Khornate WoC with Shields, 5 Marauder Horsemen with Flails, a Lv. 2 Tzeentch Sorcerer using Tzeentchian spells and some hounds.
The second time around he used a Marauder based list, with two units of 25 with great weapons, a unit of Drogres, and Sorcerer.
In the first game my main problem was, admittedly, with animosity and Frenzy, with at least 1 failed test per turn, and with my Boar Boys being dragged away by the hounds due to a failed Frenzy test, failing their charge (They were 19" away) and being charged by the Maraduer Horsemen and Hound next turn.
Without my impact unit, and with my Trolls flamed down to 1 by the time they hit combat (damn failed stupidity), I jjust couldn't break that Warrior unit. In the end he got the points for the Trolls, 1 Boys unit and my Big Boss, all I got VP for were the Hounds, though he was down to 1 Horseman and 6 Warriors, with his General on a wound.

The second game was much better, with the boys behaving themselves, and I managed to tie up the Drogres with my Trolls fairly quickly, and break one of his Marauder units with a combined boys with general plus Boar Boys charge.
Again, though, Frenzy dragged my Boar Boys via overrun in front of his second unit, and then his Tzeentch Sorcerer atomiszed my Shaman.

In the end i got the VP for the unit of Marauders and his sorcerer (my boss nabbed him), he got the points for the Boar Boys, my Shaman and my Trolls, who took his Drogres down to 1 with 1 wound by the end of turn six before the last one bit the dust.

Anyway, that gives you an idea of what happened, what would you do differently/what do you think i did wrong/what could I do better? At the moment I only have those models painted, whereas my opponents can all draw from much bigger armies, so I am at a disadvantage, but for now, any suggestions?

[strv]

Well, are you willing to use goblins? You could get wolf or spider riders and use them to screen your frenzied units from having to chase after chaff. Also you can screen the trolls so they don't get fireballed/handgunned to much.
B
Other then that you can get a box of savages and make the units 2x25, and 3 more trolls so they can take more damage.

[russellmoo]

Yeah, I'm not sure what you could have done either. You needed to have access to Foot of Gork to deal with those Khorne warriors, and those marauder units- the best solution to any WoC army is to shoot it or magic it down, before fighting CC.

[bad dice]

It should be said that you can mount Black Orc Big Bosses on a Boar (woah - alliteration) and get them to a 1+ armor save pretty cheaply. You are free to then run them in a unit until you either A) need them to charge out at some pesky missile unit/fleeing unit/help a different combat or B) celebrate your glorious victory.

Yes, I know that they can be picked out by templates and shooting. Most things will struggle to get past T5 and 1+AS however, and the things that don't really have much better targets than a ~120 point model.

I dont get it I mean why bother its about 110-120 points for the bos on boar. And ok het give you a way to ignore anamosity
But as ppl stated he'll just get shot by artilary and he has 3 s5 attacks i could take almost 9 savage orc big unes for his point cost who also have 3 s5 attacks and have 9 wounds don't give away vp when killed ad ranks ect.

It just seems such a waste of points.