8th Edition Orc & Goblin Armybook Tactics

[Oogie boogie boss]

Well, are you willing to use goblins?.

Alas, I'm determined to keep it an all SO army, so no gobbos, no BO, and no war machines. I am going to get more Trolls, and obviously going to make the boys units bigger, but for now that's all I've got painted.
Spells wise I agree, getting fist of York would have been handy, but in the first game he managed to cast the spell which makes any double you roll to cast a spell a miscast which was....annoying. I hope that's something they. Hangs when they re-do the book, as I think it's not something that fits in that well with he current magic system.
Anyway, that's by-the-by. Does anyone have any suggestions as to deployment methods/maneuvring which might throw him a bit?

[TsukeFox]

I dont get it I mean why bother its about 110-120 points for the bos on boar. And ok het give you a way to ignore anamosity
But as ppl stated he'll just get shot by artilary and he has 3 s5 attacks i could take almost 9 savage orc big unes for his point cost who also have 3 s5 attacks and have 9 wounds don't give away vp when killed ad ranks ect.

It just seems such a waste of points.

If the opponent is shooting at the lone character it means the rest of the army can advance without getting harassed.
Further their is a fair chance that the artillery will miss or if one equips the black Orc boss with a charmed shield that at least in theory allows him to survived one round of shooting.

In Chess as well as Warhammer some pieces must be sacrificed in order to win . Are you saying that each one of your games you loose nothing & play a perfect game ??

If the boar boss dies oh well- if he lives that guy can do a lot of good dealing with chaff that can redirect that horde of savage Bigguns like: great eagles, razer gores, rat darts, slaves, harpies, fast Calvary, ect ect.

Further not every army has an artillery piece.

On a finale note in 8th it is the player who redirects the most who wins games. Redirecting dictates who gets magic phase to help their troops in combat. Eliminating an opponents redirectors/chaff the quickest helps assure victory. Most chaff are weak.& cannot deal with a hero character with high strength, toughness, & magical equipment.

Pushing hordes mindlessly forward will only win against simple opponents.

[Djekar]

My point with the guy on the boar was originally "if you are going to take a black orc for animosity purposes, you might as well put him on a boar so he is more flexible". That kind of evolved into "I think black orcs on boars are good". I still stand by that statement. Tsuke has good points concerning the uses of the Black Orc - helps you go full steam ahead until you need him to charge out of the unit - I find it nice to have a character with a decent charge threat range that can single handedly deal with small support units/stalling units. Obviously if in your meta people aren't taking small support/stalling units then you won't get much mileage out of him.

I don't think that artillery is such a huge concern to him. I don't think that 118 points is a ridiculous amount to pay for the flexibility he offers, even if he *does* get pasted by a lucky shot. I think that he is worth those points to help da boyz get across the table - through quelling animosity and being the giant target. Put another way, frequently people who take giants say "well even if they do get killed, it's only 200 points and it's keeping the rest of my troops from getting shot at". So here we have a model that is *at worst* as resistant to shooting as the giant for almost half as much, but it is considered a terrible trade if he dies to save the rest of the boyz?

I do think that I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with most of the people in this thread, however.

[bad dice]

If the opponent is shooting at the lone character it means the rest of the army can advance without getting harassed.
Further their is a fair chance that the artillery will miss or if one equips the black Orc boss with a charmed shield that at least in theory allows him to survived one round of shooting.

In Chess as well as Warhammer some pieces must be sacrificed in order to win . Are you saying that each one of your games you loose nothing & play a perfect game ??

If the boar boss dies oh well- if he lives that guy can do a lot of good dealing with chaff that can redirect that horde of savage Bigguns like: great eagles, razer gores, rat darts, slaves, harpies, fast Calvary, ect ect.

Further not every army has an artillery piece.

On a finale note in 8th it is the player who redirects the most who wins games. Redirecting dictates who gets magic phase to help their troops in combat. Eliminating an opponents redirectors/chaff the quickest helps assure victory. Most chaff are weak.& cannot deal with a hero character with high strength, toughness, & magical equipment.

Pushing hordes mindlessly forward will only win against simple opponents.

Well thank you for you over draw comperison

In chess you only have the pieces of the game no choice needed
In warhammer you can pick you own pieces and a blacorc on boar just aint that great.

And gues what a cannon or stone trower sniping that dude is till going to hit the unit

Wanna run over chaf get a chariot or a goblin on a giant spider . Cheaper and better.

But then again if you wanna run a black orc i gues you could do it this way.

Just don't think is anny where near optimal or risk free.

[Ghremdal]

I don't think a black orc on a boar is a bad investment, I just don't see him taking precedence over other things. For its price you get 3 trolls or 2 chariots or 10 additional savage big un's, 10 fast cav, 6 boar boyz, warmachines...

I think all those units have bigger utility then the lonely boss, and the benefit of removing animosity is questionable. In all the games I played I never felt like I lost because of a bad animosity roll.

[Glemigobles]

I don't think a black orc on a boar is a bad investment, I just don't see him taking precedence over other things. For its price you get 3 trolls or 2 chariots or 10 additional savage big un's, 10 fast cav, 6 boar boyz, warmachines...

I think all those units have bigger utility then the lonely boss, and the benefit of removing animosity is questionable. In all the games I played I never felt like I lost because of a bad animosity roll. - thus making a blorc bb on a boar a bad investment

[Yowzo]

you guys rate 3 units of 8 trolls at 2400 points? I know it will not win every game but it looks like fun to do...

You will have leadership bubble issues with 3 troll units. You absolutely need to babysit them, so 3 of them will be challenging to keep in warboss range (unless you mount him on a wyvern).

Why not horde 18 of them and make a small 2x2 unit? The troll horde is absolutely devastating if the opp doesn't have flaming or pit of shades/purple sun.

[Shimmergloom]

I think all those units have bigger utility then the lonely boss, and the benefit of removing animosity is questionable. In all the games I played I never felt like I lost because of a bad animosity roll.

It is questionable, because the errata made it so that he is useless if another nearby unit fails and attacks the unit he is suppose to be protecting. This happens to me nearly every time I take a black orc bsb to protect my bunker. Inevitably a nearby unit fails animoisity, rolls the 2nd 1 and attacks my bunker, so that both units wind up squabbling, rendering the huge points sink of a black orc bsb useless.

And the charmed shield is no guarantee to even stop 1 cannon/war machine shot. All the opposing player needs to do is understand the obvious that the boar guy likely has the charmed shield. So then single him out with a magic spell to force the charmed shield to be wasted. Then kill him in the shooting phase.

[Djekar]

And the charmed shield is no guarantee to even stop 1 cannon/war machine shot. All the opposing player needs to do is understand the obvious that the boar guy likely has the charmed shield. So then single him out with a magic spell to force the charmed shield to be wasted. Then kill him in the shooting phase

I don't understand how you think this is a bad thing. To get 118 (I'll settle there) points you are requiring your opponent to throw magic *and* a large portion of his shooting at a very specific target - one that you agree is not necessarily amazing. If the black orc is as bad as people seem to think he is either a) hooray, they're shooting at a terrible unit - the whole army wins!, or b) it's better than previously indicated and is in fact worth that attention by the enemy.

It's not always all about points. Even if your opponent gets 0 points from firing magic/BS shooting into a big block of Night Goblins it can be crucial if it helps them destroy the unit. Forcing your opponent to make choices like "do I spend an entire turn firing at the Black Orc on a Boar?" is a great thing - if your opponent doesn't have to make a choice either you have completely out played him or your armylist is short on threats.

[russellmoo]

I just want to chime in about animosity- the first 10 or so games I played with O&G 4 or 5 of them were negatively impacted by animosity- it takes some getting used to and there are little things you can do to channel it, if you don't animosity can be a real problem.

[TsukeFox]

I don't understand how you think this is a bad thing. To get 118 (I'll settle there) points you are requiring your opponent to throw magic *and* a large portion of his shooting at a very specific target - one that you agree is not necessarily amazing. If the black orc is as bad as people seem to think he is either a) hooray, they're shooting at a terrible unit - the whole army wins!, or b) it's better than previously indicated and is in fact worth that attention by the enemy.

It's not always all about points. Even if your opponent gets 0 points from firing magic/BS shooting into a big block of Night Goblins it can be crucial if it helps them destroy the unit. Forcing your opponent to make choices like "do I spend an entire turn firing at the Black Orc on a Boar?" is a great thing - if your opponent doesn't have to make a choice either you have completely out played him or your armylist is short on threats.

One most also consider the fact that in 8th charges are occurring on turn 2 & 3.
If on the 1st turn magic and shooing is devoted against the black orc boar hero, 2nd turn the Ladz can get in some charges or declare charges on the 3rd turn only taking 1 round of shooting as oppose to 2.

Just a thought.

[bad dice]

One most also consider the fact that in 8th charges are occurring on turn 2 & 3.
If on the 1st turn magic and shooing is devoted against the black orc boar hero, 2nd turn the Ladz can get in some charges or declare charges on the 3rd turn only taking 1 round of shooting as oppose to 2.

Just a thought.

I would like to point out that its not like the opponet needs to choose between the big bos or you units. It's not like a mangler in that respect
He wil just shoot your units if he needs to its not like the big boss is that big of a treath. In fact the points you spend on him makes you army smaller.

It's more that if the oppennt is sure that he can take you on annyway. Then he can snipe the boss dead and get some easy vp.

It's also not like the big boss is bad perse.
It just that every thing he does except help whit animosity can be done cheaper or better by some other choice

And for just for animosity reducing it's not worht the extra points.

Not to mention the fact that sometimes the d6 s5 hits he inflicts are actualy worse than the animosity affect.

[Glemigobles]

I would like to point out that its not like the opponet needs to choose between the big bos or you units. It's not like a mangler in that respect
He wil just shoot your units if he needs to its not like the big boss is that big of a treath. In fact the points you spend on him makes you army smaller.

It's more that if the oppennt is sure that he can take you on annyway. Then he can snipe the boss dead and get some easy vp.

It's also not like the big boss is bad perse.
It just that every thing he does except help whit animosity can be done cheaper or better by some other choice

And for just for animosity reducing it's not worht the extra points.

Not to mention the fact that sometimes the d6 s5 hits he inflicts are actualy worse than the animosity affect.

This. And more - d6 str5 can be worse than a cannon or stone thrower. It is definitely worse than mortar (against orc boyz anyway).

[Oogie boogie boss]

I think D6 ST5 hits is too harsh a punishment for animosity prevention. It's more than the character can put out in actual combat! It should either be lower strength, say ST3/4 or only D3 hits.

[russellmoo]

I agree- the model should attack his own unit as if he were fighting a round of close combat. The D6 Str5 becomes really harsh when it's dealt to a unit of big unz or worse case scenario D6 str 5 hits against a unit of savage boar boy big unz- a blorc in this case might just cause more points worth of damage than the model costs-

However, I could see running naked blorc big unz in large units of regular boyz or along side some weedy gobbos- even if you kill 6 gobbos, you most likely won't care-

[Shimmergloom]

Yes, 90 points just to kill your own guys so that you can move like everyone else and the fact that all O&G infantry and cav(other than wolfriders) have gotten points increases since 6th edition, is the main problem.

I could even understand taking a black orc on foot just to stop animosity(some, but not totally) for whatever unit your lvl 4 is in, but it's the putting him on a boar, which is the problem. Now you're paying 108pts+ to kill your own guys and leave yourself open to easy magic/war machine sniping.

[madival]

Is the archanarok spider with stone thrower upgrade any good?

[Djekar]

I heard (a while ago) that someone tried it and loved it but I can't find the reference. I personally am still dubious and I haven't been able to make myself try it out, so I guess what I'm saying is "I have nothing really relevant to add".

[russellmoo]

I think it is a very situational tool- as a stone thrower it is not a very good one, the real benefit would be conferring ASL on a unit but this isn't really worth that much either except against 2 maybe 3 armies- if you are playing against a lot of High elves, dark elves or demons you can get some good use out of this as these armies have high initiative + ASF units- taking away the ability of these units to re-roll their to hit rolls is worth the points spent on a flinger- however, in an all comers list there is probably a better way to spend the points-

[Yowzo]

Besides, you want the spider to march and threaten the flanks. Tried it twice and never worked, so out it went.