Draigo - The pinnacle of bad fluff?

[Chem-Dog]

The middle ground is showing the character struggling and suffering, with losses, and setbacks, and last minute improvisations to accomplish their Epic Feat of Awesome.

Aurellian during Armageddon I, Sacrificed brothers and died himself after using a brother's NFM to banish Angron.

1. Daemons are unkillable. You *cannot* actually get rid of them. Only nurgle/khorne/et al can unmake their own daemons (as punishment for failure, presumably)

Untrue. A daemon's essence can be utterly destroyed.

2. All greyknights seem to be able to do in the current book is banish the things, preventing them from manifesting on the world they are on, but not stopping them from popping up elsewhere.

Well, the GK's are pretty good at being where Daemons are about to show up and nipping incursions in the bud. But you can't nix Daemons by simply having the GK putting down an effective cordon all of the time or GK battles would be a case of "Successfully perform the ritual without any interruption".

3. When the demons crop up into fluff, their eternal nature is often played upon. Eg. The ork warband in the warp who get into an eternal fight with khornate demons.

That's not Daemons being eternal, that's Orks being trapped in a time loop of killing fun.

4. Greater daemons are good. Very good. They are often referred to as being able to wade through marines (who can in turn wade through a hundred men each without flinching) till some brave named character can go give their spine a good punching.

Daemons are a plot device in fluff, they do what's necessary to A:seem like a terrible foe to overcome and B:make the hero look suitably bad-ass.
The reason that they manage to wade through such huge swathes of noble warriors is that the warriors don't possess the necessary knowledge to deal with them, the correct runes and encantations, properly prepared specialist eqiupment, the daemon's true name ect ect. It requires specialists, who ya gonna call?

The "big badass champion" of the demon hunters, is... very good at fighting demons. So good that he ended up stuck in the warp, battling against them forever. Hes not actually getting anywhere, because he can't, theyre endless, but he won't give up, and will fight on and on, doing what he can to keep them in the warp, and not in the real world. He battles across the warp to get to the rifts where they spill into the real world, pops out, helps push them back, then goes to find another. And still, technically he's ineffective, as there is one of him, and presumably more than one incursion.

1: You don't have any data on comparative levels of incursion prior to Draigo's arrival, he could be doing very well indeed, the Imperium could be a daemon infested ruin if not for him, the Eldar could have entirely fallen to Slaanesh, if not for him, the Old Ones could have been destroyed by chaos if not for him....
2: If he IS in the warp, there's nothing to say he has to only be in one place at any one time, it's the warp that obeys none of the rules of the physical realm, including Time. He could have destroyed rifts that predate the existance of man and ones that will occur long after mankind's eventual demise at the same time, neither of which will ever be noticed because, thanks to him they don't happen.

Melting down a part of a demon to recreate one's sword is certainly a good idea.

Khorne's realm in the warp has forges for the manufacture of weapons, I'd say the weapons held by Khorne's daemons are not parts of the beings themselves, but simply "hellforged" weapons that can be picked up and used by anyone able to make a daemon drop it's weapon...
Such a weapon would be possessed of all kinds of baleful energies BUT be utterly absent of any of the problems with holding a part of a daemon for any length of time and expecting to get away with one's sanity intact.

[Lowmans]

I really hope Mat Ward doesn't take the title of this thread as a challenge!

[Torpedo Vegas]

I'm going to reserve judgement till I get my hands on the complete, official book and not pass judgement on what may or may not be a portion of what may or may not be the codex. And even if it is legitimate, I really don't care. I don't think one can take 40k fluff seriously, at least I don't. Its so bad its good.

[Tymell]

If the info seen is genuine*, then yes, it's ridiculous and utter tripe. What I've heard on Draigo so far is well up there with Thunderwolf Cavalry: it literally sounds like it came from an eight year old's fan fiction, like the writer's little boy wrote something and begged daddy to put it into the codex.

There's the nugget of a badass character, but it's trying much too hard to show how amazing he is.

*And if it isn't the real deal/finished product then no worries

[x-esiv-4c]

It would be interesting to see if there is any change from the PDF to the production codex and if so, what prompted the change?

[loveless]

Meh. At this point, I read the Codex and then just interpret what the writer was most likely trying to say.

From what I've heard, Draigo gets trapped in hell and is forced to fight a battle he cannot win, as his foes rise up shortly after they fall and his accomplishments are erased as time flows on.

Frankly, that works for me - he should be a badass in that situation, if not slightly insane. Details in these books are pointless - it's like Falcon-Punching an Avatar, I just choose to gloss over it.

[Aesaar]

I feel so weird now for not actually minding Draigo's fluff, or most of the fluff in the book, for that matter.

It's not up there (or down there, as the case may be) as everyone wanting to be an Ultramarine.

[DuskRaider]

I really hope Mat Ward doesn't take the title of this thread as a challenge!

Hahaha, I can see it now... "They don't think I can do worse?! HOW DARE THEY! Slave, give me the Necron codex... Necron Lord Calgar is in full effect!"

[MajorWesJanson]

What really annoys me is how people spew a hyperbolic version of what is actually said, skewing it to the side that suits their purposes and ignoring the parts that don't. Arguments about the Avatar vs Calgar fight tended to be oversimplified and ignored many parts.
Draigo has the problem that people are playing up one side of him, completely ignoring the rest of the fluff, which is that his achievements in the warp don't matter. It specifically says that anything he destroys is rebuilt, any daemons he kills are reborn, and whenever he returns to the mortal world, he is doomed to be pulled back into the warp.

Still, just like politics, people see no benefit of giving the facts, just the parts that suit their arguments.

Melting down a part of a demon to recreate one's sword is certainly a good idea.

It's not the first time a chaos weapon has been reforged into a loyalist one. Look at Grimnar and his Axe for one.

[Azzy]

Applause.

Wes, if you keep this up you'll need to change your name to MajorWiseJanson.

[Sephiroth]

Draigo has the problem that people are playing up one side of him, completely ignoring the rest of the fluff, which is that his achievements in the warp don't matter. It specifically says that anything he destroys is rebuilt, any daemons he kills are reborn, and whenever he returns to the mortal world, he is doomed to be pulled back into the warp.

But they do matter. He's got daemons afraid of him. Are you seriously telling me if an undying Chaos Space Marine wandered about Terra smacking Custodes, but they just get back up for some reason, you'd be fine with this? It's not being ignored. People aren't mentioning because it doesn't matter. The fact he's doing it in the first place is the issue.

I've honestly never heard of a more absurd "pass go" "Get out of jail - free" card played than saying, everything over the top, ridiculously powerful the character does is somehow "fine" because it has no long term effect - so if the Masque of Slaanesh were to somehow get into the Emperor's throne room and and prance around his corpse, this would be fine with you as she's just dancing there, and it has no long term effects at all?

[Mannimarco]

I just dont like the fact he can enter the Gods realms and lay waste to them.*

The Garden of Nurgle/Inevitable City dont actually exist as physical places (ok the city might, Im not up on Tzeentchian lore). You wont just be bouncing around the warp and find a great big garden filled with all kinds of decay and a great big mansion in the middle of it with Nurgle hanging out inside.

The Gods themselves dont actually exist as depicted (Nurgle isnt a big GUO, Slaanesh isnt a freaky looking hermaphrodite on a divan etc) but are instead super massive vortexes of psychic energy that have achieved sentience.

In order to be running around Nurgles garden etc you couldnt do that with your physical body, you would need to be a psychic vortex of your own which has entered the God (and good luck surviving inside a sentient super vortex that isnt very fond of you). Then theres the problem of you being a disembodied soul floating around, sure you could enter the vortexes and move around in that way but you would either A: quickly be absorbed by the warp itself or B: eaten by a fury.

I quote RoC Lost and the Damned when I say the Chaos Gods can end life in these places on a whim so if they truly wanted him dead he would be, no doubt about that so it stands to reason the only reason he can do what he does is because it amuses the Gods. The Ork codex gives us a daemon prince and his minions who can kill and raise an Ork WAAAGH on their own little world so it stands to reason the Gods could kill one little GK who was actually inside them if they so desired.

I wouldnt really care if he destroyed daemon worlds (apart from it being stupid one marine destroying a daemon world) as these places do actually exist, you can enter the EoT and look at them but the Gods own realms dont exist like this. I have seen people comparing it to Abaddon rampaging around Terra wrecking up the place with nobody being able to stop him and everybody but the bravest custodes being afraid to face him but its not like that: Terra exists and you could rampage around on it if you made it there. This would be more akin to Abaddon entering the Emperors own mind and trashing it.

From a RL perspective it would be like getting in a plane and flying above cloud level, you can see clouds, these exist like that but you wont see Heaven.

[Theocracity]

A few lousy paragraphs in a codex do not define the entirety of 40K fiction. If it did we'd be in a lot of trouble.

Everything preiously written has had layers of shading, interpretation, and individual creation added to it. Why is Draigo an exception? Why does everyone assume that Matt Ward is the end of the line for the fluff?

Draigo is an interesting idea: the paladin in hell, cursed to have even his mighty victories fade behind him. Just because Ward wrote a few bad paragraphs on the subject doesn't invalidate it as a cool idea, or prevent you from interpreting it differently. Use some creativity, people - it's lame to just accept what's written as doctrine, in any context.

Edited: Loveless and Majorwes say it better than I do. Also, it doesn't really matter about exactly what happens in the Warp - it's a realm of unstable dimensions, thought made manifest, and metaphors come alive. Whether or not demons are afraid of him, or what exactly he was smashing, is totally beside the point. That's what makes it so crazy dangerous to the realspace civilization and is part of why it's such an interesting antagonist.

Meh. At this point, I read the Codex and then just interpret what the writer was most likely trying to say.

From what I've heard, Draigo gets trapped in hell and is forced to fight a battle he cannot win, as his foes rise up shortly after they fall and his accomplishments are erased as time flows on.

Frankly, that works for me - he should be a badass in that situation, if not slightly insane. Details in these books are pointless - it's like Falcon-Punching an Avatar, I just choose to gloss over it.

[Captain Semper]

A few lousy paragraphs in a codex do not define the entirety of 40K fiction. If it did we'd be in a lot of trouble.

Everything preiously written has had layers of shading, interpretation, and individual creation added to it. Why is Draigo an exception? Why does everyone assume that Matt Ward is the end of the line for the fluff?

Draigo is an interesting idea: the paladin in hell, cursed to have even his mighty victories fade behind him. Just because Ward wrote a few bad paragraphs on the subject doesn't invalidate it as a cool idea, or prevent you from interpreting it differently. Use some creativity, people - it's lame to just accept what's written as doctrine, in any context.

Good point!

[Castigator]

I just dont like the fact he can enter the Gods realms and lay waste to them.*

The Garden of Nurgle/Inevitable City dont actually exist as physical places (ok the city might, Im not up on Tzeentchian lore). You wont just be bouncing around the warp and find a great big garden filled with all kinds of decay and a great big mansion in the middle of it with Nurgle hanging out inside.

The Gods themselves dont actually exist as depicted (Nurgle isnt a big GUO, Slaanesh isnt a freaky looking hermaphrodite on a divan etc) but are instead super massive vortexes of psychic energy that have achieved sentience.
.

Um? First, the Chaos God do express themselves physically by taking on the form of (greater) daemons. So a GUO inded IS nurgle on the battlefield, or as close as you'll ever get.

And if daemons are the literal, physical manifestation of human (and some other xenos) emotions, that it would make sense that these "literal" manifestations of "beings" live in "literal" manifestations of "places". That is.. indeed, the whole "trick" of the Warp.

[MajorWesJanson]

But they do matter. He's got daemons afraid of him. Are you seriously telling me if an undying Chaos Space Marine wandered about Terra smacking Custodes, but they just get back up for some reason, you'd be fine with this? It's not being ignored. People aren't mentioning because it doesn't matter. The fact he's doing it in the first place is the issue.

I've honestly never heard of a more absurd "pass go" "Get out of jail - free" card played than saying, everything over the top, ridiculously powerful the character does is somehow "fine" because it has no long term effect - so if the Masque of Slaanesh were to somehow get into the Emperor's throne room and and prance around his corpse, this would be fine with you as she's just dancing there, and it has no long term effects at all?

The Warp is not equivalent to Terra. Draigo kills daemons, some even important, but that what he is specifically trained, equipped, and engineered to do. Like other Grey Knights, he causes pain to daemons simply by being near them. Grey Knights are basically walking Gellar Fields, to the point they can use personal teleporters to transit through the warp safely.
A closer example would be say a Chaos Marine who kills Marines, even the occasional Chapter Master, and gets away with it. Like say, Dark Apostle Marduk, or Huron Blackheart.

As for daemons being scared of him, he is anethema to their kind. Daemons are not stupid. Attacking him is like jumping into a fire. They die, they come back, and it isn't pleasant. So from then on, they remember "fire hot" or "Draigo with sharp sword" and avoid him. Except the Khornate loonies. And for him, Draigo is stuck in the Orkish Valhalla. He fights, and wins, but at the end of the day, everything comes back. The Warp is designed for things like this to happen.

[x-esiv-4c]

But...But if Ward isn't being literal about Draigo's awesomeness, was he also not being literal about the Ultramarines being the greatest chapter of all marines and all other chapters want to be Ultramarines but they can't?

[Theocracity]

But...But if Ward isn't being literal about Draigo's awesomeness, was he also not being literal about the Ultramarines being the greatest chapter of all marines and all other chapters want to be Ultramarines but they can't?

My god, you're right! That can't be - otherwise hundreds of Internet posts will be rendered asinine!

How else are we supposed to have a conversation about space marines without someone leaping in to beat that dead horse?

[Mannimarco]

Um? First, the Chaos God do express themselves physically by taking on the form of (greater) daemons. So a GUO inded IS nurgle on the battlefield, or as close as you'll ever get.

And if daemons are the literal, physical manifestation of human (and some other xenos) emotions, that it would make sense that these "literal" manifestations of "beings" live in "literal" manifestations of "places". That is.. indeed, the whole "trick" of the Warp.

A GUO is as close as we are ever likely to get and this is how Nurgle himself chooses to appear but his true appearence (if you or I were to enter the warp) we wouldnt see a massive GUO, we would see the massive warpstorm that is Nurgle. We wont see him as a GUO nor would we see his mansion or his garden....not that you want to see his garden anyway as its a place where every disease and contagion to have ever existed everywhere ever finds home. You would catch everything before you even managed to light a match.

The true physical appearence of Nurgle isnt this. Its more likely to be this.

Of course being a sentient entity when he takes on an appearence to show himself to his worshippers (or create a GUO) will be reminiscent of that which empowers him.

[Carlosophy]

I 'acquired' the preview and Im not particularly impressed with any of it. Assassins are all now terrible (A Callidus is about as useful as the Decapitator) and even though a lot of the units are super-hard, they are also nearly all super-expensive.

And to top it off pretty much all of their characters (with the exception of karamazov, Ill get to him later) are useless. Stern gives bonuses to the enemy, that daemon sword guy gives the enemy furious charge and the grandmaster, who is supposedly the most ultimate badass of badasses, a guy who has survived the warp and beaten back daemons, who literally makes the gods cry isn't of any use against anything but daemons, pretty much the rarest army in the game after Necrons.

Grey Knights are the only army in 40k where their default characters are actually better than the special ones. And the Henchman unit is joke in micromanagement; there goes speed of the game.

For the same amount of points I could field Abaddon who has no useless psychic powers but has 3pts higher Strength and D6 extra attacks AND is useful against things other than daemons.

If Chaos players are scared witless they need not be. Kharn pretty much ignores everything that makes them special AND hits them on a 2+. Him and Abaddon will make short work of them.

Things I did like:
- the return of blind and rad grenades, whatever they may do!
- The Vindicare is as good as he once was (he's the only assassin with infiltrate ffs)
- Karamazov. As hilarious as his walking toilet is I love his rule where he can call down barrages on his own men, even in assault. Gotta love that.

I wouldn't put too much fear in them. Standard anti-MEQ tactics and weapons will be better than ever because they will have much less models to kill.