Draigo - The pinnacle of bad fluff?

[samiens]

I've just reread it again and this is the story of a characte rwho is pulled into the realm of chaos where he can do no lasting damage and the forces of Chaos cannot vanquish him either- its an uncomfortable stalemate- and occassionally he is drawn back into the mortal realm. Its important to note that it never says daemons are afraid of him- they just don't seek him as they can't do anything to him and nothing he does matters anyway.

As Grand Master of the Grey Knights, he's the perfect allegory of futile resistance that perfectly encapsulates the chapter (which is the same idea as the allegory that is Calgar just with their respecive backgrounds)

To be honest I find it a strange hypocrisy when people find Imperial characters doing well unrealistic, but its ok when abaddon manages to charge a blood angel devastator position and survive unhurt, or Gazgkhull Thraka never loses in single combat, or Orks find themselves perpetually reborn on a chaos planet .

none of these things show any more internal consistency than any others- so its just wierd judgements that I have yet to see sensibly reasoned.40k is fantasy in space and has been ever since I started playing (during 2nd ed incidentally) with its larger than life heroes dominating proceedings

[Gobskrag 'Eadbasha]

I dunno, I didnt think it was that bad. Certainly not the best, but not as bad as people make it out to be. Grey Knights are supposed to be badass, and as it has been mentioned before, everything Draigo accomplishes is undone before his very eyes. I think that in itself acknowledges the power of chaos, legitimizing it as a worthy foe. I can stomach mediocre fluff in a codex as long as the rules reflect the character of the army. I get my fluff fix at the Black Library.

[TheRatsInTheWalls]

Shouldn't be an if there. That's exactly what the story says. Save that lesser daemons just avoid him.

Except that all deamons avoid him save the most insane khornate ones, that he gets to carve the name of his predecessor into the heart of a deamon-primarch on his home world, and that there's no indication that he's any worse off, mentally, physically, or spiritually for all that. Yeah, that's exactly what the story says.

What really annoys me is how people spew a hyperbolic version of what is actually said, skewing it to the side that suits their purposes and ignoring the parts that don't....
Draigo has the problem that people are playing up one side of him, completely ignoring the rest of the fluff, which is that his achievements in the warp don't matter. It specifically says that anything he destroys is rebuilt, any daemons he kills are reborn, and whenever he returns to the mortal world, he is doomed to be pulled back into the warp.
...

I can't speak for the others here, but it's not the futile parts that bother me. It's that there are many parts of the story which do not appear futile at all, such as the fact that deamons now fear him and the things I mention above.

[loveless]

To be honest I find it a strange hypocrisy when people find Imperial characters doing well unrealistic, but its ok when abaddon manages to charge a blood angel devastator position and survive unhurt, or Gazgkhull Thraka never loses in single combat, or Orks find themselves perpetually reborn on a chaos planet .

Additionally, didn't Shadowsun supposedly wipe out a Hive Fleet or something? Didn't Sliscus take out a planet because their envoy mispronounced his name or something like that?

In other words, everyone gets to do absolutely ridiculous things, but people only complain when a Marine does something ridiculous. It's obnoxious. Honestly, a fine lot of you would make great politicians - calling out actions of your opponents with heavy hyperbole while downplaying/ignoring your own faults.

[decker_cky]

The orks finding themselves perpetually reborn on a chaos planet works because that's what Chaos is and always has been.

I agree that the Draigo fluff is a cool idea with terrible execution though. Hopefully the editors fix it.

[Chapters Unwritten]

I dunno, I didnt think it was that bad. Certainly not the best, but not as bad as people make it out to be. Grey Knights are supposed to be badass, and as it has been mentioned before, everything Draigo accomplishes is undone before his very eyes. I think that in itself acknowledges the power of chaos, legitimizing it as a worthy foe. I can stomach mediocre fluff in a codex as long as the rules reflect the character of the army. I get my fluff fix at the Black Library.

I feel similarly. I feel the author missed an opportunity to play up the tragic and horrific angle of the situation, but the piece still isn't all that horrible. I was a lot more bothered by it before i'd heard the bit where the deeds he accomplished were effortlessly undone.

In other words, everyone gets to do absolutely ridiculous things, but people only complain when a Marine does something ridiculous. It's obnoxious. Honestly, a fine lot of you would make great politicians - calling out actions of your opponents with heavy hyperbole while downplaying/ignoring your own faults.

You should check out the "Balancing the Space Wolves" thread.

[GrogDaTyrant]

I've just reread it again and this is the story of a characte rwho is pulled into the realm of chaos where he can do no lasting damage and the forces of Chaos cannot vanquish him either- its an uncomfortable stalemate- and occassionally he is drawn back into the mortal realm. Its important to note that it never says daemons are afraid of him- they just don't seek him as they can't do anything to him and nothing he does matters anyway.

As Grand Master of the Grey Knights, he's the perfect allegory of futile resistance that perfectly encapsulates the chapter (which is the same idea as the allegory that is Calgar just with their respecive backgrounds)

To be honest I find it a strange hypocrisy when people find Imperial characters doing well unrealistic, but its ok when abaddon manages to charge a blood angel devastator position and survive unhurt, or Gazgkhull Thraka never loses in single combat, or Orks find themselves perpetually reborn on a chaos planet .

none of these things show any more internal consistency than any others- so its just wierd judgements that I have yet to see sensibly reasoned.40k is fantasy in space and has been ever since I started playing (during 2nd ed incidentally) with its larger than life heroes dominating proceedings

To be fair, Ghazgkull actually has lost quite a few fights. Notably during the 2nd war for Armageddon, where he let his personal vendetta against Yarrick loose him the entire war. And IMO the story in the Ork codex about the Ork warlord endlessly being reborn on a daemon world is my most disliked fluff in the book, 2nd only to the worthless excuse for a bike-boss, and his somehow miraculous destruction of a titan.


Another point to consider is that both Abaddon, and Ghaz are villains. Villains are not meant to be 'liked', they're meant to be hated and vilified. The natural reaction and dislike for these over-the-top 'good guys' (like Calgar) has nothing to do with being just as crazy as the villains, but rather in that they don't have any of the flaws or failings to speak of. By contrast, both Abaddon and Ghaz (as well as every villain) are planet-destroying, homicidal nightmares to civilization. Many of them have extreme flaws that manifest as a desire for wanton violence, tactical ineptitude, or outright 'stabs-own-face' level of retardation.

The problem with characters like Calgar, or this Draigo, is that there are no flaws or failings. There is only over the top supposed attempts at 'total awesomeness', which makes them come across more as "canon-sues", or rather as shallow developer's-favorite super-ultra-mega-heroes. Without flaws, failures, and other humanizing aspects, the so-called hero might as well be replaced by an atomic warhead disguised as a cardboard cut-out, that gets thrown at the offending villain.

Being a badass is only part of what defines a hero. Without all the other traits that help to define him, you no longer have a hero, but a shell of one without any compelling depth or personality.

[loveless]

I agree that the Draigo fluff is a cool idea with terrible execution though. Hopefully the editors fix it.

This is true of most of the background on Imperial things lately. It never seems as bad when you read it first-hand, though...so I'm waiting. Like I said earlier, though, as long as I can understand the intent of the piece, I can work out the story in my head well enough.

You should check out the "Balancing the Space Wolves" thread.

For the sake of my own sanity, I think I'll avoid that thread like the plague now. Thanks

[doomspittle]

I hate it , reasons being it just makes Sanguinius and other Primarchs deeds rather pants in comparison. I mean Sanguinius defeating a Bloodthirster outside the Eternity gate was meant to be bad ass , not anymore.

[Sami]

Didn't Sliscus take out a planet because their envoy mispronounced his name or something like that?

Seeing as DE are geared up for enslaving entire planets (yes this requires a lot of DE to do) and taking them back for lunch time, Sliscus saying "what did you just call me? that's it - dinner time" doesn't mean he and he alone rounded up the entire planet. His massed fleet did so.

The issue a lot of people have with SM are over-the-top personal heroics, not a bad guy clicking his fingers and his thousands of minions acting out his orders.

[Azzy]

he gets to carve the name of his predecessor into the heart of a deamon-primarch on his home world

Seriously, dude, you're really stretching by trying to present that as something literal. What, did Draigo bring out his boy scout etching kit and say, "Hold still Mortarion, Imma gonna carve a name on yer [literally] stone heart."?

It's willfully disingenuous to take something that is so obviously a florid turn of phrase and present it as something literal. Would you take it literally, also, if it had instead said, "...and Draigo proceeded to be a pain in Mortarion's ass as revenge for the death of his forebear."? Dude, Draigo's making a Daemon-Primarch's butt hurt.

[Ferrous82]

"Well, for instance, Draigo has Killed Daemon Prince M'kar twice, carved his name into Mortarion's (the Death Guard Daemon Primarch) heart as his first act as Lord Grand Master for the death of the previous Grand Master, held a pass for two days for an IG regiment to escape and landed every single blow and bolter shot for two days, got sucked into the warp and killed a bloodthirster and takes its axe to reforge into a new sword, burns Nurgle's garden and destroys Tzeentch's city single handedly and buries a lord of Change in it, and now Daemons are too afraid to face him in battle. Now he spends is time fighting through the realm of chaos, sometimes being able to return and getting sucked back in again. "

Yet his actions pale in comparison to Marneus Calgar, the Chuck Norris of 40k.

[Commandojimbob]

I completely agree with you Carlosophy - I have the preview and I agree - but I dont think Draigos fluff in the codex is that bad actually - he is forever doomed Chaos knows this, if it wanted to it could eliminate him but why bother - he actually does nothing to chaos!!!!!!

However, while I completely agree with Carl about the preview codex (yes yes its just a leaked preview) what the restt of the codex will do is spam Dreadknights because unlike the stupid inevitable spam of henchment the rest looks balanced to slightly ovecosted - but not dreadknights and actually Draigo - for 275pts - has nout scary about him really !

[Tymell]

Seriously, dude, you're really stretching by trying to present that as something literal. What, did Draigo bring out his boy scout etching kit and say, "Hold still Mortarion, Imma gonna carve a name on yer [literally] stone heart."?

It's willfully disingenuous to take something that is so obviously a florid turn of phrase and present it as something literal. Would you take it literally, also, if it had instead said, "...and Draigo proceeded to be a pain in Mortarion's ass as revenge for the death of his forebear."? Dude, Draigo's making a Daemon-Primarch's butt hurt.

From what I read, the phrase was meant as something more than just being a thorn in Mortarion's side, so to speak. If it -was- meant as a simple metaphor, then I have less of a problem with the character, and as I said, my distaste is based purely on what I've seen so far, which may not turn out to be the end result. If they lean toward him being an unstoppable daemon slaughterer who dominates any area of the daemon realms he strolls into, and slapped around a primarch, then blech. If they lean toward him being a great warrior trapped in a realm where he struggles on but ultimately can't achieve anything, and only survives on dark god whims, then that's a bit more like it.

All IMO of course

[loveless]

The issue a lot of people have with SM are over-the-top personal heroics, not a bad guy clicking his fingers and his thousands of minions acting out his orders.

So...where does it get over-the-top?

Calgar? Who was able to get in a killing blow on an Avatar? (Admittedly, lame story, but it doesn't seem that far out of the realm of possibility really).

A GK Grand Master killing a Greater Daemon? Well...that's kind of what they're trained to do, isn't it?

[GrogDaTyrant]

Calgar? Who was able to get in a killing blow on an Avatar? (Admittedly, lame story, but it doesn't seem that far out of the realm of possibility really).

A GK Grand Master killing a Greater Daemon? Well...that's kind of what they're trained to do, isn't it?

But where's their heroic 'issues'? Calgar's only supposed flaw is his pride, which apparently he's careful to keep in check so that it doesn't affect his better judgement... In other words, it's not a flaw for him at all. How about his 'failures'? Has he ever lost a battle, or been bested in combat? Only when a completely different developer/writer felt the need to 'one-up' calgar by making an even more ludicrous and never-dying swarmlord 'gravely injure him'. I'm not saying Swarmlord's any better... It is a world-slaying monster and a villain (hence it shouldn't be "liked"). But it is just as flawless as Calgar, which does make for a pretty transparent and uninteresting villain.

As for Draigo, we'll ultimately just have to see about him when the book is finally released. But if he's just as perfect and shiny-teethed as Calgar, expect some flak headed his way.

[loveless]

But where's their heroic 'issues'? Calgar's only supposed flaw is his pride, which apparently he's careful to keep in check so that it doesn't affect his better judgement... In other words, it's not a flaw for him at all. How about his 'failures'? Has he ever lost a battle, or been bested in combat? Only when a completely different developer/writer felt the need to 'one-up' calgar by making an even more ludicrous and never-dying swarmlord 'gravely injure him'. I'm not saying Swarmlord's any better... It is a world-slaying monster and a villain (hence it shouldn't be "liked"). But it is just as flawless as Calgar, which does make for a pretty transparent and uninteresting villain.

Well, that's the thing then - it's not Calgar's actions that condemn him as a poor character (which, IMO, he is - I don't care for him), it's his lack of flaws. He's meant to be the pinnacle of Marines, clearly, but to exaggerate that they simply show him as near to "perfect" as possible. Frankly, they should play up his pride - show him doing something dreadful, let him make a mistake. As you seem to imply, the Swarmlord situation was just...well, it felt like the worst kind of fanservice.



Draigo may be perceived as "flawless" - but he's punished for it. He's trapped in Hell, getting only the slightest of reprieves. If he is a "perfect" hero, then we see him faced with an endless enemy - there is no escape, there is no victory. He stands up in the face of enemy and can prove to be a thorn in their side, but he can ultimately make no progress. He's incapable of winning in the long run.

Eventually, he will tire. The Chaos Gods have all the time in the universe to wait for that day.

[spartan116]

Seriously, dude, you're really stretching by trying to present that as something literal. What, did Draigo bring out his boy scout etching kit and say, "Hold still Mortarion, Imma gonna carve a name on yer [literally] stone heart."?

I agree with this. The fluff says he carved his name in the heart to "insult" him. It doesn't say how Mortarion was put into this position but I'm willing to bet there were a lot of Grey Knights involved in the fight...

Honestly his fluff isn't that bad. It is a little over the top but I can see the Chaos Gods trapping the one thing the Imperium created to solely kill there kind in a place where his abilities are absolutely useless.

...If they lean toward him being a great warrior trapped in a realm where he struggles on but ultimately can't achieve anything, and only survives on dark god whims, then that's a bit more like it...

From what I read, this seems to be the idea of it all IMO.

[MajorWesJanson]

I agree with this. The fluff says he carved his name in the heart to "insult" him. It doesn't say how Mortarion was put into this position but I'm willing to bet there were a lot of Grey Knights involved in the fight...

I brought it up in another one of the GK discussions, but the line about carving on Mortarians heart seems less literal and more a reference to the awesome speech made by Alaric in Grey Knight:

"We do not know what our chances of survival are, so we fight as if they were zero. We do not know what we are facing, so we fight as if it was the dark gods themselves. No one will remember us now and we may never be buried beneath Titan, so we will build our own memorial here. The Chapter might lose us and the Imperium might never know we existed, but the Enemy - the Enemy will know. The Enemy will remember. We will hurt it so badly that it will never forget us until the stars burn out and the Emperor vanquishes it at the end of time. When Chaos is dying, its last thought will be of us. That is our memorial -carved into the heart of Chaos. We cannot lose, Grey Knights. We have already won."

[GrogDaTyrant]

Well, that's the thing then - it's not Calgar's actions that condemn him as a poor character (which, IMO, he is - I don't care for him), it's his lack of flaws. He's meant to be the pinnacle of Marines, clearly, but to exaggerate that they simply show him as near to "perfect" as possible. Frankly, they should play up his pride - show him doing something dreadful, let him make a mistake. As you seem to imply, the Swarmlord situation was just...well, it felt like the worst kind of fanservice.

That is I believe the crux of it. It's not the 'actions' of characters like Calgar. That just happens to be the most glaring thing people latch onto to justify their dislike. It's the lack of humanizing flaws and failings that really causes the initial distaste, and stops you from appreciating the character's fluff as "well written". And this is because heroes, in almost any genre, will always have such flaws or humanizing failures. This is part of what makes them 'heroic' in the first place.

Let's play a little scenario shall we? Let's take everything about Calgar currently, his apparent awesomeness, his shiny teeth, and punching down an Avatar. Now let's say we add on the following to his background: as a young scout he often disobeyed orders from his superiors. As a commander his actions resulted in the entire destruction of a hive city when he pulled his forces away misinterpreting where the enemy would attack. He is then stripped of his command for such a grievous mistake, and spends the next 300 years having to build himself back up in the eyes of his peers before becoming a Force Commander once again. Even still, as a Force Commander and then later, his pride causes him to refuse to listen to the tactical acumen of fellow Imperial Commanders, whether from another Marine Chapter, or from within the Imperial Guard. This continues well into becoming the Chapter Master, and even now he still disregards the advice and strategies presented to him by outsiders. Now he discovers the super-gauntlets of Ultramar, punches out a god, and saves a planet from the jaws of an entire Tyranid Hive Fleet.

Suddenly he's a bit more likable as a hero, right? He's failed at times. He's suffered injury (stripped of command). His arrogance and pride is his greatest flaw. Now he could save the universe, and he'd probably be alright in most player's eyes. Whether or not he'd be their spiritual liege... meh... Let's not push it.


As far as Draigo goes... I am holding my breath as to what my views of him will be, until I read his fluff for myself.