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Thread: Tactica: Grey Knights

  1. #1

    Tactica: Grey Knights

    An ongoing discussion about making the Emperor's Finest become the table-top's finest!

    General Strengths:

    1) Grey Knights have excellent midfield dominance due to two primary factors. They have deadly firepower within 24 inches because of S4/S5 Storm Bolters and Psycannons, available on all of their possible troop choices except Henchmen. Every unit has access to anti-infantry shooting (Storm Bolters) and excellent anti-tank shooting (Psycannons), though limited to 24". Psybolt Heavy Bolter Razorbacks extends this somewhat to 36", though not in enough volume to break out of their sweet spot. Psybolt Autocannon Dreads are one of the only ways that Grey Knights can challenge the far board edges from the early game.

    2) Grey Knights excel as shooting, counter charge, and generalist units. Storm Bolters as standard equipment means that you can torrent with every unit, and at the sweet sweet range of 24". This allows you to move, shoot, and remain out of charge range for most things as long as possible. Their Nemesis Force Weapons also allow them to beat up on whittled down units and even put the hurt on fresh semi-elite units (Berserkers, Blood Angels, Grey Hunters, etc).

    3) The new trend for 5th edition codex design seems to be to have HQs which unlock certain units as troop choices. GK has this and more. Draigo = Paladins, Crowe = Purifiers, Coteaz = Henchmen. This is good because Paladins, Purifiers and Henchmen are all workable troop choices. Grand Strategy takes this one step further by making almost any unit a potential scoring unit (even Dreads!). This allows great flexibility in list building.

    4) Psybolt Rifleman Dreads. A Dreadnought with two Twin Linked Autocannon arms, with the Psybolt upgrade. This single Dreadnought configuration shores up the greatest weakness of 3rd-4th edition GK- long range anti-tank shooting. The Psybolt Rifleman Dread (AKA Psyfleman) has other benefits besides 4 twin-linked S8 shots. His Reinforced Aegis means that he can remain backfield while giving a passive defensive boost from Psykers, and especially psychic shooting attacks. Fortitude on a LD10 means that it's going to be very difficult to suppress these dreads with light anti-tank shots, unless you've got a Psychic Hood or a Rune Priest or some other anti-psyker powers in effect.

    General Weaknesses:

    1) Current Grey Knights, like the previous edition, are an elite army (barring Coteaz Henchmen builds). Although you can run a list with lots of cheap Strike Squads, which isn't necessarily bad, the average 2000 point list will likely have 40-60 models. Grey Knights are capable of running one of the most elite lists out there as well: Draigo-Wing. You can have a nice 2000 point list with 16 models, and still make the opponent sweat with your tough-as-nails units. However, lower numbers of models means that your opponent will often take greater advantage of torrenting fire, your own mistakes, and board control. Part and parcel to this weakness is the fact that power armored Grey Knights are still T4/3+. This is no more survivable than a tactical marine. Poison, lasguns, multi-lasers, plasma, melta, etc, will still kill your expensive 20-30 pt models.

    2) Grey Knights are generally not a combat army. Yes, they have Force Weapons, yes they have access to special stat increases (Hammer Hand, Nemesis Force Weapon varieties, etc), and yes you have options to field some true hard nuts (Paladins, Death Cult Assassins, Purifiers somewhat). However, they are also paying for their storm bolter, they're usually rocking 1A base, they generally do not have 2 CCWs, they rarely have any decent Invul save, and they lack easy access to fast and reliable delivery (Fast rhinos, cheap skimmers, open topped transports, etc). Although some debate this, I believe experience will show you that Grey Knights excel as a generalist army. Imagine super Tactical Marines and you'll get the picture. They have quite good shooting, decent combat ability against heavy infantry, and equal durability to any space marine. They will still die to Hammernators, Incubi, Nob Bikers, Nids en masse, and Furious Charging Blood Angel semi-hordes. Remember that you have Storm Bolters and Psycannons with unlimited ammo. Shoot it first, and then get into fights that are highly favorable for you. Let your enemy come to you unless they're long ranged shooters like Guard.

    3) Weakness versus Anti-Psyker gear and rules. With such army-wide benefits from psychic powers, running into Runes or Njal can really hurt. The worst possible match-up for Grey Knights, comically, are usually other Grey Knights. Since Grey Knights are some of the best units to go and kill Psykers (sorry Sisters!), their special rules royally screw their own chapter when fighting amongst themselves. As in, when Grey Knights face Grey Knights, the unit that gets the charge will almost always win in a straight up fight. Also, anything that makes Perils more likely can see you killing off your sergeant, which means your uber-elite Grey Knights are now LD8.

    4) Since Grey Knights tend to excel as a Hybrid Army (Vehicles and Infantry) they are also susceptible to feeling the full brunt of their opponent's firepower. With a fully mechanized list the opponent will have to holster their splinter cannons, bolters, CC troops, etc. When it's all infantry, their missile launchers and melta guns are a bit over kill for their cost, when infantry will almost always be rocking a 4+ cover minimum. However since Grey Knight's infantry shooting ability will encourage players to drop their troops off by turn 1-2, this means the enemy will usually be able to make use of all of their guns and units. For this reason, Grey Knights should usually be played quite aggressively, though not blindly so. You can't turtle up and pop Psycannon shots out of Rhino firing points all game and pray that Psyfleman Dreads will force your opponent out. Getting your infantry out of their vehicles needs to happen earlier for Grey Knights than most other mechanized armies.


    Have fun reading; I'm sure others have far more useful advice to give!

  2. #2
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    Re: Tactica: Grey Knights

    Ill be taking an interest in this thread for sure.

    Looking to run a TDA grey knight list deepstriking into the heart of the enemy - might be suicide i know but thats what grey knight do imo.

    What sort of weapon layout should i run?

  3. #3
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    Re: Tactica: Grey Knights

    i gotta go look at the codex in store later but i agree with what has been said so far, as a vet Daemon hunter player thats how i used to use them.

  4. #4

    Re: Tactica: Grey Knights

    Don' forget to take a look at the henchmen options!

    Anyone can tell us if we could take a ton of henchmen troops with coteaz?

  5. #5

    Re: Tactica: Grey Knights

    Seeing as the rumor is that the double sword option is +1A then I see that as a popular option for PAGK giving them the extra attack will probably be very important when facing hoard type armies, giving termies the halberds will probably be the way to go to make sure your elites really whoop those other elites.

    Psycannon spam seems like a decent way to go but I would be wary to go to battle without a smattering of flame templates so you can properly deal with those mobs of orks/wychs (I forsee a lot more wych cult themed DE armies in response to more armies with all power weapons in the meta).

    The ability to make Interceptors scoring seems pretty powerful when combined with their once per game 30 inch move.
    No Signature right now.

  6. #6
    Couldn't we have at least waited until the release for a thread like this. Now if some comes on here wantin to look through a tactics page they will get a few dozen pages of people who don't even have the book talking about tactic that they are not even sure about.

    This is far too premature.


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  7. #7
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    Re: Tactica: Grey Knights

    Quote Originally Posted by AngelofSorrow View Post
    Couldn't we have at least waited until the release for a thread like this. Now if some comes on here wantin to look through a tactics page they will get a few dozen pages of people who don't even have the book talking about tactic that they are not even sure about.

    This is far too premature.


    "Ready for eternal war!"
    actually the black box was at my local store yesterday so chances are people have already seen the book. and tbh as stats havent changed too much with the GK's what has been said is still relevant.

  8. #8
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    Re: Tactica: Grey Knights

    Reverse-tactica, i.e. DE player needs to learn a new foe.

    1) What guns are available to GK (and in what quantity) that are effective at taking out Av10/11 vehicles? In particular: strength, number of shots, range, special rules (rending), and availability.

    2) Initiative and Strength of CC and non-CC troops (if there is such a distinction). Any ability to buff initiative to silly levels, and can this be spammed on all units?

    3) Av values of DK would be particularly handy. And do its CC weapons count as dreadnought CC weapons? Thinking about instant death with this one.

    4) Any invul denying weapons like the codex of old? If so, are they melee or ranged weapons?

    5) Able to vehicle spam? Not including DN/DK in this.

    6) Any units that can enter play from reserve and charge on the same turn?

    Thank you

  9. #9

    Re: Tactica: Grey Knights

    Perhaps an instruction than:

    Please limit the conversation to discussions on the GK codex that has already been released in print. Do not ask for confirmation of rumors- do a searchy for that.

    Brother - For me, 5-man units of Purifiers with 2 Psycannons + a rhino are a great bargain, and you can pop them out to charge a horde unit in a pinch. With a Grand Master, you could have them all scoring. Pretty neat and not too expensive! You can also use the 3 guys with force weapons to do light MeQ or TeQ killing.

  10. #10
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    Re: Tactica: Grey Knights

    I think this thread is timely. In the next few days people will begin to be able to proxy lists by looking at the codex from the black box, so its just about right.

    I'm hoping that an army sporting mostly PAGKs will be viable. The psycannon appears to be an amazing all-around weapon, the storm bolters appear to be able to lay the hurt on hordes at range - I think the sticking point will be dealing with specialist CC units - TH/SS termies - etc.

    Here's a rules Q that isn't clear to me - all nemesis weapons are force weapons - does that mean that they are also power weapons (or, put another way, does the normal PAGK ignore armor in cc?)

    Sami - my knowledge of the DK stems from what people have said from the BB, but I believe it is S6/T6 4W 2+4++ , armed with 2x DCCW standard. I don't recall the Attacks stat.... Modeling aside, It seems to be a good unit.

    My first test of the DK will be finding out if the 2+/4++ gives them enough durability to be the only three targets for my opponent's AV fire. I run wraithwall with my only other army, and its a serious problem for wraithlords - @ T8 with a 3+ save, they tend to have trouble being the only targets for AV fire. While the DKs are only T6, they have that 2+ armor and the 4++.... I can't decide if thats tough enough or not, but i hope to find out.
    Last edited by Gwyidion; 09-03-2011 at 18:50.

  11. #11

    Re: Tactica: Grey Knights

    In my opinion, standard GK Strike Squads toting Psycannons will be one of the most viable builds, whether they take the interceptor route, or mounted in rhinos.

    They're better at laying down midfield bolter fire than tactical marines, better at CC by a large margin than tactical marines against most armies that rely on some form of armor or FNP, and the Psycannon is better at anti-horde and anti-tank than any other weapon out there (except a close range melta I suppose), unless you're fighting a monolith. The squad itself is not prohibitively expensive, and they're pretty versatile with their psychic powers.

    I really wish I had better ideas for a Terminator list (I've got 35 of them!).

  12. #12

    Re: Tactica: Grey Knights

    I want to have just Tactics here. There should not be a post starting with: Like the rumours say.../ Maybe.../ or something like that. I want do not want any speculations or tactics without an foundation. Is that possible? Post like the first one! Only!

  13. #13
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    Re: Tactica: Grey Knights

    I think GK will be VIABLE if you mass cheep troops, that means GKSS with Psycannon Support. My list I'm aiming at so far :

    HQ of some description / CHEEP maybe Ordo Xeno Inquisitor or Techmarine ?

    E Vindicare Assassin

    T 10 man GKSS with 2 Psycannons & 1 Helberd for the Justicar Combat Squaded

    T 10 man GKSS with 2 Psycannons & 1 Helberd for the Justicar Combat Squaded

    FA 10 man GKIS with 2 Burners & Hammer for Justicar

    H Basic Dredknight with Inferno Cannon

    H 5 man Purgedon Squad with 4x Psycannons
    Kasrkins Imperial Guard
    Thorran 77th - Mobile Infantry

    Red, Yellow, & Blue Platoons
    123rd Airbourne - 108th Recon - 42nd Armoured

  14. #14
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    Re: Tactica: Grey Knights

    Saved for the future
    Kasrkins Imperial Guard
    Thorran 77th - Mobile Infantry

    Red, Yellow, & Blue Platoons
    123rd Airbourne - 108th Recon - 42nd Armoured

  15. #15

    Re: Tactica: Grey Knights

    3 dks, fistfulls of Psycannons = win
    They need a tactica?

  16. #16

    Re: Tactica: Grey Knights

    In regards to Terminator only builds, there are multiple ways to go about it.

    Draigo is an obvious choice, as he is a CC monster, makes Paladins troops, and can utilize the Grand Master's grand strategy ability.

    Some build options with Draigo - Take minimal Paladin squads, 5-guys, and 2 Psycannons. Scout 1-3 squads of these guys in forward positions, and use them as scoring firebases. Use swords on them to try and up their general survivability, and lay down 8 rending S7 shots a turn. All told, you could probably fit about 20-25 Paladins and Draigo along with some basic options. The upside is that you'll have at least 10 Psycannons, which is decent AT on a Terminator platform. Dread Knights are optional, though will lower your model count again. Dread-Knights being wounds based and not AV based adds to the saturation of high armor save multi-wounds on the table, which is helpful in overwhelming your opponents anti-TeQ.

    Edit: Removed the Mordrak bit, I didn't realize he was no longer an IC, so he cannot DS with a unit of Terminators. 400+ pts for a 6-man unit on turn 1 seems quite expensive.

    Unfortunately, I think the current melta/lance proliferation about these days means that you'll be far less effective with 2-3 Land raiders on the table, and your terminators are not as hard as the TH/SS variety in general. This means that it would probably be better to take a foot/DS terminator army, and hope that your 8-12 Psycannons are enough to force your enemy to come to you.

    All in all, I believe a decently refined Terminator list would work fairly well with the ubiquitous Psycannons, though it seriously suffers from a lack of ongoing mobility when dealing with focus-fire armies like DE, CWE, and Blood Angels.
    Last edited by Angelust; 12-03-2011 at 19:55.

  17. #17

    Re: Tactica: Grey Knights

    Actually, regular GKT with swords should be able to hold there own against TH/SS terminators for 3 reasons. They're only 1 wound, so an ID wound is less threatening then on a 2w Paladin, swords up they're invuln save to 4+ in CC, and they go first. Add the possibility of getting s5 from hammerhand and the possible rounds of stormbolter fire from before the assault, and GKT stand up pretty well against TH/SS.

  18. #18
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    Re: Tactica: Grey Knights

    I was looking at the book today and there's something that needs to get FAQ'd

    It's well known that Coteaz makes henchmen troops but under the henchmen listing it says that the unit does not take up a slot in the force org. I feel this is going to need to be FAQ'd because at some point the issue is going to come up that you'd need to take 2 squads of GK's to get your min. troops filled but also if they don't take up a slot it means you can have an infinite amount of troops squads.

    Who wants to go up against a list containing 40 3 man squads of servitors with heavy bolters and multi meltas? Sure, only half of them will be acting on average but that's still about 180 rounds from heavy bolters every turn.

    You'll get lists looking like:
    coteaz
    5x grey knights
    5x grey knights
    20 squads of 3x servitors with heavy bolters
    20 squads of 3x servitors with multimeltas
    1500pts

    If you read the rules the other way and think that now that they are troops they DO take up a slot in force org. I would like to take large units of warrior henchmen armed with storm bolters plus a couple of jokaero for heavy support and squads of arco flagelents in chimeras

    10 warriors with storm bolters and a chimera is about 125 points

  19. #19

    Re: Tactica: Grey Knights

    I think 2 things that aren't showing up in a lot of lists right now will become very common place in GK lists:

    Vindicare assassin
    Rifleman Dreads with psybolts (2x TL Autocannons at S8)

    Both are roughly the same price. The dreads add (somewhat) mobile accurate firepower to shoot down mech lists while the vindicare can take down anything from land raiders to sgts or heavy/special weapon troopers.

    I'm thinking people will either take Mordrak and cheap terminators + strike squads, or Crowe and load up on 5-man purifier squads with 2 psycannons firing out the top of a rhino.

    Another list type I can see, especially from the /tg/ crowd, is the Chimerape(TM) list. Lots of Jokaero in Chimeras firing ~5 lascannons each.
    Last edited by Sekhmet; 10-03-2011 at 02:50.
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  20. #20
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    Re: Tactica: Grey Knights

    Quote Originally Posted by sprue View Post
    I was looking at the book today and there's something that needs to get FAQ'd

    It's well known that Coteaz makes henchmen troops but under the henchmen listing it says that the unit does not take up a slot in the force org. I feel this is going to need to be FAQ'd because at some point the issue is going to come up that you'd need to take 2 squads of GK's to get your min. troops filled but also if they don't take up a slot it means you can have an infinite amount of troops squads.

    Who wants to go up against a list containing 40 3 man squads of servitors with heavy bolters and multi meltas? Sure, only half of them will be acting on average but that's still about 180 rounds from heavy bolters every turn.

    You'll get lists looking like:
    coteaz
    5x grey knights
    5x grey knights
    20 squads of 3x servitors with heavy bolters
    20 squads of 3x servitors with multimeltas
    1500pts

    If you read the rules the other way and think that now that they are troops they DO take up a slot in force org. I would like to take large units of warrior henchmen armed with storm bolters plus a couple of jokaero for heavy support and squads of arco flagelents in chimeras

    10 warriors with storm bolters and a chimera is about 125 points
    The sad part is GW won't FAQ it because think of the actual cost to do that. They'll love the people who are willing to spend the money to do that.

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