Will the new GK be able to compete against IG mech and SW Missile Spam?
Will the new GK be able to compete against IG mech and SW Missile Spam?
Originally Posted by Doctor Thunder
My Project Log featuring: Tau and Sisters of Battle
Links to my battle reports
Psycannons are 24". And it's one of the best form of anti-tank they have.
So against longer range armies it boils down to the delivery system.
Do you run transport spam with psycannons and push them up mid field for shots? Or do you run that heavy support squad that can take 4 special weapons (and become troops with the right special character) and just teleport them up midfield in one go?
Either way, IG will be tough to take down. Missile spam is easier as paladins and terminators pretty much ignore missiles anyways.
Another strategy might be to take a bunch of jump knights for outflanking and 18" charges from the board edge. Or dreadknights (can they take teleporters?)
Just remember the order: roll d3, THEN choose the ability and who gets it, then deploy.
Longfangs will have a hard time with units like Mordrak + 10 terminators dropping onto their backfield with no scatter from turn 1. The other SW units may swamp you with bolter and close combat though.
Also, Scouting Storm Ravens filled with GKSS or Henchmen Crusaders could be nasty.
Dealing with Mech may be a lot harder, but perhaps teleporting + scouting Dread Knights x3 + Mordrak + 10 Terminators? Lots of options to test I guess.
Edit:
Also, I haven't considered if a Rifle Dread is redundant with Psycannons on the board, but that's an interesting build.
I don't think the Vindicare will really see much play later on, since killing a 2 wound model/unit is pretty easy when his weapon range is 36". I personally would send lots of krak missiles, autocannons, multilasers, and spare bolter fire his way. He's not really very durable for his points (more than a rifle dread!)
Last edited by Angelust; 10-03-2011 at 04:52.
No dedicated stormravens or land raiders either so scouting those is out. 10 termies will be harder to deal with but as a deathwing player I know just how easily 10 terminators can sometimes evaporate when deep striking into enemy territory.
Heres a list I have partially built already, just awaiting the new stuff. I dont intend for it to be super competitive, although I think it can definitely hold its own.
I may end up including a techmarine with orbital strike, brain mines and rad grenades/psychotroke grenades instead of the callidus assassin. Need to test more first. Thoughts?
GKs 1850
HQ:
Coteaz
Elite:
7 purifiers, 5 halberds, 2 psycannons, rhino
vindicare
callidus
Troops:
10 henchmen (4 mg warriors, 4 dca, 2 crusaders), chimera ml/hf
4 mg henchmen, chimera ml/hf
4 mg henchmen, chimera ml/hf
FA:
7 gk interceptors, 4 halberds, 1 psycannon, psybolt ammo
HS:
dreadknight, teleporter
5 purgation squad, 4 psycannons
5 purgation squad, 4 psycannons
Total- 1848
Edit: with blackbox release it seems this list is no longer legal (or as good), please disregard.
Last edited by the gribbly; 12-03-2011 at 18:54.
Hail to Allornone, black crusader, lord champion of the long war, eviscerator of light, warlord of chaos..
Some interesting options there, i quite like the Dragio/ Paladin force.
Will need to read the codex for accurate points/ wargear etc but thats what i plAn to run.
ok, I have 10 PA Gk with halberd. Where would you use? Purifiers? GKSS? Teleporters?
What do you think of hammers, falchions and halberds on PA?
* Thunderbolts, Inquisition and GK Plog
* Khorrrne Plog
* Dwarf adjuster, D&D and Mansions of Madness
I think a Halberd on the Justicar is a good upgrade investment. Striking at Init 6 with 2-3 attacks means you'll have a shot of killing a Greater Daemon, Daemon Prince, and certain Init 5 HQs before they have a chance to kill 4-5 guys. Pretty decent buy for a few points.
In my opinion though, halberds on other PA guys generally isn't worth it, as you're adding 25% to their cost in order to give them a situational bonus. I'd rather purchase 2 more Grey Knights in PA, or another Terminator, or Psybolt ammo for 2 full squads.
So here's a rough and stupid sketch of a Draigo list (Boring so far)
Draigo
Vindicare
Paladin x5 - 2 Psycannons, 1 Halberd, 2 Falchions, 3 Swords
Paladin x5 - " "
Paladin x5 - " "
Paladin x5 - " "
Paladin x5 - " "
Which basically gives you 40 Psycannon shots, a Vindicare, and 5 Holocaust templates.
Thoughts on lists like this? (Not army list critique, just glaring weaknesses in army comp similar to this?)
Looks good for what it is, but I'm thinking of some lists that would be problematic, namely mech and horde. Mathematically the psycannon shots will pop an av 13-14 vehicle/turn (then let's add another from the vindicare) which is fair, but I don't think it will be enough against really competitive mech builds. I also think an orky horde would be more than a match; not to mention a solid tyranid list.
But as far as the pure terminator footslog goes I think this will be the new precedent.
As for myself, I'm very curious to see how a blitz list will work along with some mech. Namely Mordrak, 10 ghost terminators with 2 psycannons, 2 squads of GKSS in rhinos with 2 psycannons, 2 personal teleporter DKs, and a unit of terminators in a landraider in higher pointed games. Deepstrike the ghosts nice and close to provide cover fire and draw attention while the rest of the army makes it's way forward
On the mordrak list you will want to add a libby to the Unit to strike at I10 and reduce T by -1, so you can Insta kill t4. remember that mordrak has a 4++ and no EW, and if he dies, the whole squad dies.
Been considering doing a henchmen list. It will be something along the lines of:
Coteaz
Random Inquisitor
Callidus
Vindicare
X units of X henchmen
The problem is what to bring as the henchmen (should be roughly 1000 points worth plus vehicles).
Combat Units:
From what ive heard so far, the obvious choice for a combat unit are 12 Death-Cults (probably drop a few for crusaders) in a LR/Storm Raven w. Inquistor+Hammerhand (something like 50ish PW attacks on the charge for not very many points).
Shooting Units (Anti-Horde):
Warriors with Storm Bolters?
Shooting Units (Anti-Tank):
Lots of options here. Some things ive considered include 5 Jokaero + Crusaders in a chimera.
Also, you could go way out there and take something like 10 Acolytes+Plasma Guns/Meltas for some real overkill (and still not costing all that much). Ive considered putting Coteaz in one of these units (with Plasmas) and going in a Chimera.
edit:
maybe something like this:
Coteaz
Ordo (?) Inquisitor
Vindicare
5 Jokaero, Chimera, Extra Armor
5 Jokaero, Chimera, Extra Armor
10 Death Cultists
10 Warriors, Plasma Guns, Carapace Armor, Jokaero, Chimera, Extra Armor
Land Raider
It *should* all fit into 1500 points. Has alot of anti-tank (13 Las-canons), anti Meq (10-20 plasma shots), anti-horde (possibly 11 Heavy Flamers)...and the death cultists with a hammerhand boost in combat. Sure its about as fragile as you can get but it goes to show, you dont need Grey Knights in a Grey Knights army :P
Anyone else have any ideas?
Last edited by oCoYoRoAoKo; 10-03-2011 at 14:08.
To all of those who claim NidZilla Lists are un-fluffy: All Tyranids evolve to counter threats that they face. Pesky Marines kill lots of gaunts with their Boltguns, Assault Cannons and Heavy Bolters. We evolve by removing the gaunts entirely
Xenos (Formerly My Necron Painting Log) Here (Now Finished)
Rahmotep's Revenge (Ogre Kingdoms) Here
Chaos Painting Log (Formerly The Rot, My Daemon Log) Here
He is no IC either so they can't target them.
Regardless that squad will be a headache to deal with, the libby i'm not sure, but support it with teleporting dreadknights and you will see many opponent panicking
So ideally if you look at a list for 1500pts (club standard atm)
you would go to:
Mordrack
10 Ghostknights,
2 psycannon, Brotherhood banner, 4 Halberds, 4 swords, 2 hammers
Core (dunno what yet open to suggestions here)
Core (dunno what yet open to suggestions here)
Dreadknight, teleporter
Dreadknight, teleporter
Ok not much models but damn hard and fast, depending scenario, grand strategy can severly put the hurt on how fast you will be engaging the enemy
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things
And we shall do so again.
Mordrak will be very hard to kill, having multiple wounds and being effectively an upgrade character with a retinue of 10 terminators.
The problem with Grand Masters in general is their steep point cost. They're decent at CC, about as tough as a regular captain with Iron Halo (No NFS, meaning 4++, not 3++ like other GMs). 600+ points for a tooled up Mordrak + 10 Knights is pretty steep, when you consider that you can have 10 tricked out Paladins for the same cost. You're paying a premium on Grand Strategy, Reserve manipulation, and 1st turn scatter-less DS. It will be anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 of a regular army's point total, which is a LOT for 11 models.
Draigo is also a monster, but he's also very limited in his mobility. At the price-point of Sanguinor/Mephiston, I think you need a way for him to jump from combat to combat quickly, otherwise he may find himself combatting 1-2 units a game max, if that.
I imagine that in the future, as list tweaking develops, we'll see most lists fall back to using either a Librarian or a cheap inquisitor. GK HQs otherwise don't seem to add too much to the army versatility, and they're quite expensive.
Librarian brings the psychic hood which a GM doesn't, and it will get some use as other armies will bring their own psykers to combat GK and their psychic metal boxes. On the other hand, grand strategy is an amazing ability, with it you can build many different builds from the GK side alone.
By the way, couldn't you use teleport shunt with your scout move? You can turbo-boost, so I see no reason you couldn't use personal teleporters. Pretty nasty, I think. Of course, that would mean burning your one surefire way of getting to a far away objective later in the game, but first turn charges are awesome too.
-"Zeal and fury are rewarded with victory!"
In the Codex, only 3 of the warriors can have plasma guns, but the rest can have hot-shot lasguns. You seem to have about 140pts to work with from the napkin math I did after seeing the book today. I would suggest maybe a Techmarine (Tech priest on the table =P) with a conversion Beamer or Orbital Relay. Either one would provide some nice fire support.
Another idea:
Shooty techmarine in the back to give your vindicare a 2+ cover save.
I think a list with a couple strike squads in rhinos, a bunch of psyflemans, and mordrak could actually be pretty powerful.
But I'd almost rather have a libby with mind blades and might with terminators... but mordrak can allow your psyflemans to outflank, getting 4x TL S8 shots on vehicle side armor!
Draigo, Librarian, 6 paladins including an apothecary all in a LR Crusader. The new authority in deathstars?
Eh, I've never seen Deathstar builds do well against competent opponents. Even in Fantasy, where DE deathstars and WOC deathstars were a big rage for a while. 40k makes it even harder to pull off. Nob Bikers were quite troublesome because they had great mobility and hard-hitting power on top of their resilience. 8 dudes in a Land Raider are just once lance or melta away from walking 4-5 turns of the game. Any of my DE opponents would LOVE 1k points in a single Land-Raider.
Even if you spend the points to give a bolstered defense Vindicare, he's still subject to 2W syndrome, which means it takes an average of 12 wounds to kill him, not too hard when your opponent is packing any competent ranged firepower. I just can't imagine the Vindicare lasting more than 2 turns against many of the balanced or shooty armies out there.
I think that the GK codex will honestly be one of those army books that reward min-maxing (perhaps a little too much) and punish bling-syndrome. Load up on cheap and optimum henchmen in chimeras? Great! Welcome to the realm of the Guard. Load up on super expensive upgrades and characters? Sad-panda! Lament your standard Space Marine resilience spread across half the models of a Space Wolf army.
Possible build for the future?-
Inquisitor x2 (some different flavors)
Henchmen x2 - Melta + some CC, or specialized for one or the other + Chimeras
Grey Knight SS - As many as you can fit, with 2x psycannons and psybolts, riding in rhinos
Sprinkles of options like 5 man purifier units, purgation units, etc, possibly with psybolt razorbacks or the like.
Edit: Another idea (Not sure if it's legal/permitted by rules)
Take Mordrak, 10 suped up Paladins, and Draigo, and DS them first turn into the enemy's line. Use their 2-6 scout strategies to get Dread Knights with Teleporters up halfway across the board, in position to charge, and use your troops to secure home objectives and lay down storm bolter/psycannon fire.
A reserves list would eat this list up, but it might be very difficult for non-mobile armies to deal with. Just some brainstorming...
Last edited by Angelust; 11-03-2011 at 05:32.
I was wondering of anybody would like to discuss the hnchmen coteaz army. I plan to test out this army myself, but the sheer amount of options present just get me building point heavy and non optimal units.
I see the 6 crusader, 6 death cult, and chimera unit for 235 being a main combat unit, however this unit comes off as a bit pricey.
The five jokaero in a chimera also seems to be a popular option (whether as a joke or not) however this unit also costs 230 points.
What about a unit of 2 jokaero with 3 melts acolytes firing out of a chimera?
The multitude of options has just overwhelmed me and I'm curious what is being anticipated for strong henchmen armies.
Another issue is that of armig acolytes. I can see melts and plas being popular. Also, are bs 3 storm bolted wielders for 7 points an attractive option?
Thats exactly what I was thinking.
To make a marine more expensive is generally a VERY bad idea.
The normal GKSS with psycannons is about right, but anything after that is becomming a big waste of points very fast.
Chimera-spam will be effective, but then again: Why not just play IG?
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
