A thought on tactics. I may have to find room in my army for the sniper assassin. Simply put, enemy psychic hoods do over Grey Knights since many of their powers, from hammerhand to activating force weapons rely on psychic tests. The hood usually costs the opponent little and can be an ongoing frustration if the character wearing it is in a hard to kill unit. Thoughts?
Really depends on the army. The thing you have to remember about the psychic hood is that they have to beat you on the test. Which means that 2/3 of the time against our characters it will do nothing and 1/2 the time against our units. Its the eldar ones that we really need to worry about.
It can be frustrating but I have found that I forget to use powers so often but it does not have a real impact a lot of the time.
I mainly like the sniper assassin for vehicles as that is where he is most reliable. For the shield breaker you still need to get that 4+ to wound. However if he does not have an invul save then still go for the single wound. Also you can finish him off later.
Last edited by lethlis; 27-05-2011 at 08:20.
Ahhh, the internet, where people lose all social inhibitions and somehow everyone gets compared to the losers in WWII
That's doing nothing 7/12 LD10 to LD10 and 5/12 LD10 to LD9, lethlis.
For Librarians in the open you could turbo-penetrate for a decent chance of just killing him.
Anti-psyker is what made me decide to run a storm raven. The mindstrike missiles really hammer psykers, practically guaranteeing you a one turn kill.
WELL EXCUSSSEEEE me princess (if you get that reference I am so sorry that you suffered through that abomination)Originally Posted by Volandum
so it is 7/12 istead of 2/3 and 5/12 instead of 1/2. My bad
Still see my point
Ahhh, the internet, where people lose all social inhibitions and somehow everyone gets compared to the losers in WWII
No, I don't see your point, because those are fairly good chances of negation, and a significant drop in your ability to cast things. And I don't get your reference.
I'm currently building a land raider, and I need to decide to make it either a crusader or a redeemer. I could and probably will magnetize the sponsons, but still. I intend to transport either
A: 8 purifiers (I have Crowe) with flamers and halberds+OX inquisitor with rad grenades (and hammerhand) OR:
B: as many terminators that will fit in there (probably without librarian, I prefer troops to HQ)
C:6 DCA and 4 crusaders+OX inquisitor with rad grenades (and hammerhand)
All of the above are assault units with varying degree of shooting ability as well, and the main weaponry of both raiders is identical. Point cost difference isn't that great, and transportation capacity comes into play only with =][= retinue (if I take acolytes as support) or with terminators. So, the main difference seems to be in the sponsons. Bolters are a bit lame as far as weaponry carried on vehicles goes, but they are twinlinked and defensive, while much more powerful flamestorm cannons have short range and main weapon status.
In short, which one is the better choice of the two and how do you use it/how should I use it? Rest of the army is basically purifiers in rhinoes/rifleman dreadnoughts :/
-"Zeal and fury are rewarded with victory!"
So, I run dual raiders, like all the time.
You're going to get a lot of flack from people telling you LRs are a horrible idea. They're not--what works a lot to your advantage is that people bring tons of Str 7 and Str 8 shooting to kill rhinos, which basically does nothing to an LR. People also tend to depend on meltas, which it's pretty easy to charge the meltas before they kill the LR.
On the other hand, it is a hella lot of points, and if you screw up, it can die, and learning to use them is requires some finesse.
Two also tends to work better than one; it's both redundancy in case the enemy gets lucky in some way, and it leads to increased "pressure" But, it's probably better to learn with one first.
I do indeed recommend magnetizing the sponsons. Myself, I tend to run 1 each of a crusader and a redeemer. This is really as simple as sometimes I find the flamestorm cannons more useful, sometimes the hurricane bolters, so why not bring both? Also the crusader can fit up to 8 termies, or 7 termies + an HQ, which is sometimes useful.
If you had to pick one, pick the redeemer. It's 10 pts cheaper, and you rarely ever need more than 6 termies. Also, I find the flamestorm cannons super, super useful. So much MEQ death, and people often line up for them, they're just not expecting the ap 3.
I'm a Tri-Raider player from the old 'Dex, but I've been using Dual-Raiders since the new codex came out (mostly due to lack of GKT models, atm).
Warp Quake is awesome when done from inside a Land Raider. That's a bubble 30" wide and 32" long per Land Raider. I enjoy running either two Redeemers or two Godhammers (my LR's are magnetized, with all three options available as needed), both with MM's and Pysbolts, with Psyflame on the Redeemers. A bit expensive, but worth it for the weight of fire (literally) you can still put down field. Remember, weapons = wounds on vehicles, and LR's can have 4-6 depending on your build. Since the new codex has come, I haven't lost either LR in a game, but one always seems to get immobalized pretty early in the game.
SJ
"All things are possible," Honor agreed. "On the other hand, some are less likely than others, and given the strength of my own character, that one's less likely than most."
- Honor Harrington, War of Honor
Dual Raiders are fine, they have some really great match ups. You take them to a tourney and you get lucky and not face any decent guard or wolves lists and your way ahead. The game lies down to the player who faces the raider. I for example, am willing to sacrifice what I need to make sure the raider is dead by turn two. Killing it with melta fire by the time its in my deployment zone is pointless as a clever opponent will have positioned it in such a way that if you only wreck the raider, your not going to see the contents to shoot them as well.
I agree with what you was saying to stelek and he doesn't think outside his little box (look at his ****** Guard list...3 single sentinals taking up fast attack choices and 3 single Hydras..) He doesn't play BRB missions. This is why his crap MSU armies are never seen at tournaments that arn't Nova style (perhaps one of the easiest to play tournaments out there).
So for Land raiders, they work, but I still feel they just don't work. I think its down to your Meta. Down here, Dark eldar run rampant as do wolves, blood angels and wolves. Each of these armies have enough to deal with land raiders early on or have something to slow them down (land speeders to block, melta units to bum rush early on at them etc). If your facing Nids, Orks, Space marines, death star lists who don't have reliable amounts of melta or ways to slow down a Land raider, then of course the Raider list will do well. Its not good practise to say "Land raider armies will always win" because we both know they don't. They are too large of a chunk of points, and with armies getting bigger, they can't be all over the place at once. Attrition, blocking and sacrificing will lead to their downfall, a player just needs to know how.
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50% or less, annoying? Yes, game ending no. I have played entire games without using any of the powers against SM(literally forgot hammerhand until half way through the assault) and did just fine. Outside of our vehicles not many of the psychic tests in my experience are that important. But then again maybe that is just the lists I run.
Also its the old legend of zelda animated cartoon.....*Shudder*
Ahhh, the internet, where people lose all social inhibitions and somehow everyone gets compared to the losers in WWII
Care to share for someone who has gone 0 for 14 with Grey Knights and is about three losses away from chucking the hobby back into the bin?
Feel for you Godeskian, what do you run?
Some of the cookie cutter choices would be a good place to start but if you're playing a spacemonkey army there's no hope.
I've played tri and dual raider lists in the past and they dominate 1/2 to 1/3 of the games they play. Melta spam etc cuts the list right back and tbh I think Matt Ward did a lot to move GK away from that play style.
None of our units can take a LR dedicated transport, they compete with Dreadknights and cheep dreads for slots and they don't really add a lot to most players lists.
Footslogging GK work as does mech now we have rhinos. I'm much less enamoured with razor msu spam for pure GK - we just can't do it as well as BA etc.
Our strengths rely on big squads and the 24" bubble. Our heavy hitters like to operate just outside this area which is good - it allows us to dominate and threaten whilst keeping the enemy away.
In the last six weeks or so I've run just about everything using a vast amount of model repping from a friend of mine to try out different things and the truth is that I've tried pretty much every variation I can think of.
From Draigo's lance (Draigo, Libby, 2x5 paladins, Raven, Raider, Dnough, Dknight) to meched up Purifiers, to minimalist equipment strike squad based foot sloggers.
I feel like I'm wielding a precision instrument with the grace and skill of a drunk monkey sometimes. I'll be the first to admit that I am very very rusty. I forget abilities, I make tactical errors (blunders even, cost me a 10 man Paladin squad because I didn't run them after deep striking) but even so I'd expect to win the occasional game.
By cookie cutter I presume you mean the Crowe plus 4x5 Purifiers with psyflemen?Some of the cookie cutter choices would be a good place to start but if you're playing a spacemonkey army there's no hope.
One of the people I'm playing has managed to fit in 12 str 8 ap1/2 weapons into a 2k space marine force. My landraider and storm raven have not fared well.I've played tri and dual raider lists in the past and they dominate 1/2 to 1/3 of the games they play. Melta spam etc cuts the list right back and tbh I think Matt Ward did a lot to move GK away from that play style.
MSU spam? Razors with what exactly? Part of the problem is that I lack real world finances to buy everything I want. I really want one more squad of termies but I can't afford them this side of badab.Footslogging GK work as does mech now we have rhinos. I'm much less enamoured with razor msu spam for pure GK - we just can't do it as well as BA etc.
Let me list what I own, and maybe you can suggest something given that I really don't have much more money to commit between now and badab. If I had another three months, It'd probably be different.
Draigo
Crowe
Librarian (donated 1st edition metal librarian from the same guy who keeps beating me no less)
20 PAGK 8 of which wield psycannons, 10 of which have halberds, 2 have DH's. I usually run them as two 10 man purifier squads that combat squad
10 Terminators/Paladins. Currently made up as paladins but I doubt anyone would quible if I used them as Termies. Two psycannons, two DH's and a mix of force swords and halberds.
1 Land raider redeemer
1 Storm Raven with TL multi melta and autocannon
1 Dreadknight
1 Forgeworld Psifleman.
And out of that I have to build 5 different armies for Badab, including 1 with 3 HQ choices at 2.5K, 1 at 2K with an elites choice, an several more without special conditions.
Any thoughts would be welcome.
The problem is getting to 24'' for me. I lost an entire squad of footslogging purifiers to a demolisher on an achilles and then a vindicator when i hit 24''. It was unpleasant.Our strengths rely on big squads and the 24" bubble. Our heavy hitters like to operate just outside this area which is good - it allows us to dominate and threaten whilst keeping the enemy away.
Last edited by Godeskian; 28-05-2011 at 20:59.
S8 has quite a lot of trouble taking out Land Raiders, you need a lot of shots to cause a glance, and then you have to be lucky to do something.
I cannot advise you if you're playing against non-codex units like achilles, sorry.
Cookie cutter = standard unit loadouts. So like 10 Strike Squad + 2 Psycannon + Psybolts + MC Hammer + Rhino, or 5 Purifiers + 2 Psycannon + Hammer + Rhino, or Dreadnought + Autocannon + Autocannon + Psybolts, etc.
Let's try some sort of basic list. You have very little in the way of transportation, which is a major issue, as purifiers need transportation. Hmm, let's see.
I've got nothing particularly good. Best I can do is something like Draigo, 10 Paladins + Apothecary + 2 Psycannon + Banner + 25pts of arbitrary kit, 2 x 10 Strike Squad + 2 Psycannons + Psybolts + Master-Crafted Hammer coming to 1500 points. Draigo and Paladins deep strike or walk as appropriate and call in the strike squad with Draigo's communion. The numbers aren't good though, and we're deploying every infantry non-character model you have and doing it with an expensive Paladin squad. Trying to go to 2K or 2.5K is just untenable.
This might sound mad...
No, correction, it will sound absurd...but...
Has anyone tried a unit of 10 Jokaero?
Well straight away I'd sack off the purifiers - unless you're dropping the psycannons. Either use them as an assault unit or don't.
As you lack transport you need to figure out other ways of getting around - any chance of rebuilding your redeemer as a crusader? Stick the libby with a teleport homer in here, move 12" pop smoke and cast shrouding - you're halfway there with an assault load.
Bring your GKSS in on these later in the game, keep your GKT in your 2 assault vehicles. You've got the speed and endurance to pick your fights and then dominate them.
You say you've played a lot of different lists over a short period, you need to pick a solid core and learn how to play it - every game. Then when you go over 1500pts add the bells and whistles.
Can't argue with that.
Unfortunately while they are non-codex, the Badab campaign PDF specifically allows imperial armour units for the campaign. I doubt I'll run into many, but it's legal for the badab campaign weekend.I cannot advise you if you're playing against non-codex units like achilles, sorry.
If they're that essential, I'll have to figure something out.Let's try some sort of basic list. You have very little in the way of transportation, which is a major issue, as purifiers need transportation. Hmm, let's see.
I'm going to GW milton keynes tomorrow, I'll see if they have Rhino's. If I have to I'll buy two of the things for the purifiers, that will leave me with a CC unit (4 halberds and a hammer) and a fire-team (4 psycannons and a halberd).
I'll just eat beans until Badab.
Thanks for the advice. I can make it 2K from your suggestions simply by adding the LR and the Storm Raven back in, the two of them together clock in at 450 points without upgrades.I've got nothing particularly good. Best I can do is something like Draigo, 10 Paladins + Apothecary + 2 Psycannon + Banner + 25pts of arbitrary kit, 2 x 10 Strike Squad + 2 Psycannons + Psybolts + Master-Crafted Hammer coming to 1500 points. Draigo and Paladins deep strike or walk as appropriate and call in the strike squad with Draigo's communion. The numbers aren't good though, and we're deploying every infantry non-character model you have and doing it with an expensive Paladin squad. Trying to go to 2K or 2.5K is just untenable.
the current 2.5K list I'm running basically fields everything I own with upgrades. It's a crap list, but it's very nearly all I'm going to be able to take.
10 Lascannons? I considered it. But mathematically speaking you're probably better off with 5 in a Chimera. You can fire them all safely from inside your metal box.
If you add the LR and Stormraven to the list I suggested you'll have transport for the strike squads (I do not advise splitting up the paladins, they're toughest as one big squad with Draigo - if you don't have Draigo that S8 AP1/2 you mentioned will destroy them rapidly). (Also while I'm not a fan of stormravens they beat malnutrition.) So that'll probably be an okay list, though it would of course work better with two LRs or two Stormravens, but let's not fuss about that.
Last edited by Volandum; 28-05-2011 at 22:11.
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